4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #90

[girlhasnoname]

True, but surely her client and she, herself, think this is a better strategy than actually going to trial and getting the death penalty.

To me, it seems clear she's got nothing that's factual, much less evidentiary, to save her client. He did it, she can't get into matters adjacent to his guilt and probably has never spoken to him about it or what he says actually happened. She sees the evidence, she's using the only tactics available (lawyerly ones).

I too think it's akin to "sitting pretty" to him, since he's used to it by now, and like some other inmates (quite a few, IME), prefers being alone. Just as college students fight hard to get a solo dorm room - he's finally got it. And they're giving him his dietary needs and being decent to him.

In Truman Capote's In Cold Blood, when one of the murderers is finally in custody, he is treated so humanely by LE. The lead officer's wife ends up having to live with one of the murderers immediately adjacent to her home - and she treats him like family. IME, jail employees treat people humanely, within the rules of their incarceration. Politely. Responding reasonably to request. This may be a situation that's not so terrible for BK.

IMO.

One of my favorite books by TC. I agree this may be a reasonable existence for BK. Rigid in routine, no pressures to socialize or to try and fit in. Maybe BK is more his true self incarcerated than he has been in a long time.

JMO

 

[iamshadow21]

Playing devil's advocate here a bit, we really have no indication that BK also didn't go there.

MOO

True. But the owner has been very firm, and presumably if she was incorrect, then security video and sales records will currently be in the hands of the police showing a connection. We have, at this time, no information that he ever went there. What I do remember is a LOT of wild theorising after his arrest that because there was a vegan option on the menu, he MUST have gone there.

My opinion - and it's only that - is that if BK was really there, then he probably would have been remembered and possibly blacklisted, given his reported behaviour to other servers in restaurants in the past. But this is just my opinion.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

True. But the manager has been very firm, and presumably if she was incorrect, then security video and sales records will currently be in the hands of the police showing a connection. We have, at this time, no information that he ever went there. What I do remember is a LOT of wild theorising after his arrest that because there was a vegan option on the menu, he MUST have gone there.

My opinion - and it's only that - is that if BK was really there, then he probably would have been remembered and possibly blacklisted, given his reported behaviour to other servers in restaurants in the past. But this is just my opinion.

MOO

Agree, but can a Manager really know everyone who comes in/out of their restaurant daily? If he did go to check one of the girls out, he may have been on his best behavior and used cash, trying to keep a low profile. Although we do know BK isn't one to keep a low profile while out in public.

Either is possible is all I'm saying IMO.

 

[Chloegirl]

Ohhh my apologies, I thought it was an actual vegan pizza restaurant.

Oh well most places have vegan options so that's not really any kind of proof that BK would have used it. I'm vegan and definitely a place that's 100% vegan would attract the attention of a strict vegan like BK, especially if he didn't like the idea of animal products being prepared in the same kitchen etc.

Thanks for the clarification.

Vegan pizza in Idaho is sort of like a unicorn. Not gonna find it.

 

[ilovewings]

True, but surely her client and she, herself, think this is a better strategy than actually going to trial and getting the death penalty.

To me, it seems clear she's got nothing that's factual, much less evidentiary, to save her client. He did it, she can't get into matters adjacent to his guilt and probably has never spoken to him about it or what he says actually happened. She sees the evidence, she's using the only tactics available (lawyerly ones).

I too think it's akin to "sitting pretty" to him, since he's used to it by now, and like some other inmates (quite a few, IME), prefers being alone. Just as college students fight hard to get a solo dorm room - he's finally got it. And they're giving him his dietary needs and being decent to him.

In Truman Capote's In Cold Blood, when one of the murderers is finally in custody, he is treated so humanely by LE. The lead officer's wife ends up having to live with one of the murderers immediately adjacent to her home - and she treats him like family. IME, jail employees treat people humanely, within the rules of their incarceration. Politely. Responding reasonably to request. This may be a situation that's not so terrible for BK.

IMO.

perfect explanation!!!!!! thank you

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Playing devil's advocate here a bit, we really have no indication that BK also didn't go there.

MOO

I guess the fact they have 'vegan options' doesn't rule him out.

Also, had either of the girls come to his attention via a different route, it also doesn't rule out that he could have gone there in order to stalk or spy on them.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Vegan pizza in Idaho is sort of like a unicorn. Not gonna find it.

Oh, this is interesting to know. I live in the UK and pretty much every restaurant or fast food joint has now got vegan and also gluten free options.

 

[phcrider]

One of my favorite books by TC. I agree this may be a reasonable existence for BK. Rigid in routine, no pressures to socialize or to try and fit in. Maybe BK is more his true self incarcerated than he has been in a long time.

JMO

I knew someone who served 10 years for vehicular manslaughter and she said the time wasn’t bad. That she actually appreciated the routine, the time alone in her cell, etc… Of course she’s a major narcissist and possibly has borderline personality disorder. She doesn’t understand how other people think, at all.

 

[arielilane]

Vegan pizza in Idaho is sort of like a unicorn. Not gonna find it.

That's unfortunate. moo

 

[Boxer]

Ohhh my apologies, I thought it was an actual vegan pizza restaurant.

Oh well most places have vegan options so that's not really any kind of proof that BK would have used it. I'm vegan and definitely a place that's 100% vegan would attract the attention of a strict vegan like BK, especially if he didn't like the idea of animal products being prepared in the same kitchen etc.

Thanks for the clarification.

Searching for Vegan Moscow Idaho brings up 13 options.
Mad Greek is one.

Vegan Restaurants in Moscow, Idaho, USA

Vegan and vegetarian restaurants in Moscow, Idaho, ID, directory of natural health food stores and guide to a healthy dining.

www.happycow.net

 

[Chloegirl]

Searching for Vegan Moscow Idaho brings up 13 options.
Mad Greek is one.

Vegan Restaurants in Moscow, Idaho, USA

Vegan and vegetarian restaurants in Moscow, Idaho, ID, directory of natural health food stores and guide to a healthy dining.

www.happycow.net

I keep meaning to tell everybody this and I looked at Happy Cow years back.That is all pretty defunct many people cook at home or they're very keto. It's even hard to get vegan options at the CoOp. It can be done but it's not an option most places even when they say it -- they misunderstand the intention of vegan or vegetarian a lot. The number of times I have been served things with chicken broth is just staggering. My own Grandmother did the same and couldn't get the concept. Most folks are not veggie-forward in their thinking. This is a difficult place to be vegetarian/vegan unless you cook at home. IME.

One place served me vegan soup repeatedly before telling me there's bacon grease in it. Not kidding.

 

[Balthazar]

BARD for trials and Probable Cause for Grand Jury indictments in Idaho.

The Idaho Constitution sets forth a standard of BARD for Grand Juries. The instructions for Grand Juries in Idaho say PC. These are in conflict with each other and this needs to be resolved by the Idaho State Supreme Court. It is also important to remember that BARD for a Grand Jury would be based upon the Prosecution case alone whereas BARD in a jury trial would be based on both the Defense and Prosecution cases. They are two different types of BARD because of the difference in the information presented to a Grand Jury vs. a courtroom jury.

 

[Balthazar]

DBM - mistake

 

[Cool Cats]

The Idaho Constitution sets forth a standard of BARD for Grand Juries. The instructions for Grand Juries in Idaho say PC. These are in conflict with each other and this needs to be resolved by the Idaho State Supreme Court. It is also important to remember that BARD for a Grand Jury would be based upon the Prosecution case alone whereas BARD in a jury trial would be based on both the Defense and Prosecution cases. They are two different types of BARD because of the difference in the information presented to a Grand Jury vs. a courtroom jury.

I.C.R. 6.5. Indictment | Supreme Court

isc.idaho.gov

STATE OF IDAHO JUDICIAL BRANCH​

Supreme Court​

Idaho Criminal Rule 6.5. Indictment

(a) Sufficiency of Evidence to Warrant Indictment. If the grand jury finds, after evidence has been presented to it, that an offense has been committed and that there is probable cause to believe that the accused committed it, the jury ought to find an indictment. Probable cause exists when the grand jury has before it evidence that would lead a reasonable person to believe an offense has been committed and that the accused party has probably committed the offense.

(b) Multiple Charges of Indictment. There may be two or more separate charges in a grand jury indictment, but each must be voted on separately by the grand jury.

(c) Finding and Return of Indictment. An indictment may be found only by agreement of 12 or more jurors. It must be signed by the presiding juror and must be returned by the grand jury to a district judge. The indictment must be in writing and have endorsed on it the names of all witnesses examined before the grand jury about the subject matter of the indictment.

(d) List of Jurors’ Votes. The presiding juror must prepare separate lists of all jurors voting in favor of and jurors voting against the indictment. The lists must remain sealed but may be disclosed to the prosecuting attorney, the defendant and defendant's counsel by order of the court.

(e) Return of No Bill. If the grand jury concludes that there is no probable cause and that no indictment will be returned, that fact must be placed in writing and maintained under seal by the court as part of the record of that proceeding.

 

[Boxer]

I keep meaning to tell everybody this and I looked at Happy Cow years back.That is all pretty defunct many people cook at home or they're very keto. It's even hard to get vegan options at the CoOp. It can be done but it's not an option most places even when they say it -- they misunderstand the intention of vegan or vegetarian a lot. The number of times I have been served things with chicken broth is just staggering. My own Grandmother did the same and couldn't get the concept. Most folks are not veggie-forward in their thinking. This is a difficult place to be vegetarian/vegan unless you cook at home. IME.

One place served me vegan soup repeatedly before telling me there's bacon grease in it. Not kidding.

All true. I suppose BK would go through the same discovery process as he tried some places to eat at.

 

[Balthazar]

I.C.R. 6.5. Indictment | Supreme Court

isc.idaho.gov

STATE OF IDAHO JUDICIAL BRANCH​

Supreme Court​

Idaho Criminal Rule 6.5. Indictment

(a) Sufficiency of Evidence to Warrant Indictment. If the grand jury finds, after evidence has been presented to it, that an offense has been committed and that there is probable cause to believe that the accused committed it, the jury ought to find an indictment. Probable cause exists when the grand jury has before it evidence that would lead a reasonable person to believe an offense has been committed and that the accused party has probably committed the offense.

(b) Multiple Charges of Indictment. There may be two or more separate charges in a grand jury indictment, but each must be voted on separately by the grand jury.

(c) Finding and Return of Indictment. An indictment may be found only by agreement of 12 or more jurors. It must be signed by the presiding juror and must be returned by the grand jury to a district judge. The indictment must be in writing and have endorsed on it the names of all witnesses examined before the grand jury about the subject matter of the indictment.

(d) List of Jurors’ Votes. The presiding juror must prepare separate lists of all jurors voting in favor of and jurors voting against the indictment. The lists must remain sealed but may be disclosed to the prosecuting attorney, the defendant and defendant's counsel by order of the court.

(e) Return of No Bill. If the grand jury concludes that there is no probable cause and that no indictment will be returned, that fact must be placed in writing and maintained under seal by the court as part of the record of that proceeding.

"Logsdon said the Idaho Legislature set the higher standard for grand jury indictments, but the Idaho Supreme Court effectively lowered the standard and “never tested the constitutionality of its own rule.”" https://www.chron.com/news/article/idaho-judge-upholds-indictment-against-man-18452732.php

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

All true. I suppose BK would go through the same discovery process as he tried some places to eat at.

I wonder if he was the sort of person who would spend money eating out or would rather prepare his own meals? I know he allegedly went on a date with someone (the alleged time he said something about the woman in question having wide hips or somesuch), if he was ever dating someone I guess he'd want to take them somewhere he can eat vegan?

 

[Cool Cats]

"Logsdon said the Idaho Legislature set the higher standard for grand jury indictments, but the Idaho Supreme Court effectively lowered the standard and “never tested the constitutionality of its own rule.”" https://www.chron.com/news/article/idaho-judge-upholds-indictment-against-man-18452732.php

Also from linked article:

Deputy Attorney General Jeff Nye, who is assisting the prosecution, countered that the Idaho Supreme Court has ruled on the issue multiple times, repeatedly upholding the probable cause standard. That burden of proof was properly met during Kohberger's grand jury proceeding, he said.

Second District Judge John Judge agreed, noting that grand juries have used the probable cause standard to indict people for 100 years in Idaho. He said Kohberger's defense attorneys would need to bring the issue to the Idaho Supreme Court if they want to pursue it further.

And even if the Idaho Supreme Court changed it, it would not apply to the BK case, otherwise all indicted defendants in Idaho would get a:

"get out of jail free card."

 

[katydid23]

Playing devil's advocate here a bit, we really have no indication that BK also didn't go there.

MOO

And I don't think the manager could know for sure that he was never a patron, either. He could have easily paid cash for a salad and an iced tea and no one would have any idea.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Hi, as far as I'm aware after following this thread since the beginning, there has not yet been any verified information on this matter.

However, some people believe there had been an interaction on one of the girls' social media and also that there is a possibility BK had encountered or noticed the girls at the vegan pizza restaurant where they worked. JMO IIRC

Hate to drag this into the weeds, LOL, but details matter, so wanted to clarify that Mad Greek isn’t a vegan restaurant, pizza or otherwise.

Mad Greek does, however, have vegetarian & vegan options, as do most non-fast food places here.

Here’s a link so folks can see for themselves:
Mad Greek - Menu

HTH!