4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #91

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  • #521
The university should have rejected the donation of the house from the owners. But they stepped in to help the community and have received no end of criticism, unfortunately.
@Sundog Maybe the Uni should not have accepted the donation. IDK.

ETA: With or w'out accepting the 1122 King prop, the Uni. could have arranged for a healing garden or other memorial on campus. Like the Vandal garden now on the drawing board.

And yes, the Uni has received a lot of criticism, some or most undeserved, imo.
 
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  • #522
"Memorializing" Sites of Tragic Deaths.

Just a few thoughts about tragic deaths generally and not speaking to or criticizing any specific posts or posters here on WS or any others involved in the case.

Seems in aftermath of some homicides, some ppl say --- the prop. owner should DONATE the land & building, where crime occurred, to [uni, city, county, charity, who-ever]. A donation, i.e, as a gift, free, gratis, on-the-house, no charge.

As if any ol' prop owner is in financial position to transfer a major asset to another entity, w no thought as to whether there is a mortgage on the place, or whether the owner depends on rental income to pay the mortgage, ins, prop taxes, repairs, etc., or other considerations.

And some say the prop. should or MUST be transformed into a MEMORIAL, e.g. healing garden, a playground, etc. for the crime vic(s).

AS IF that's the only and universally the BEST WAY to honor the dead, the way that all victims, surviving fam & friends want.
When there are multiple deaths, who is to say what the deceased may have preferred, or if their families would all agree.

Seems some --- w no real life or even digital/ soc media connection like FB, to the victim, fam, friends or community (other than following news on the case, like in MSM on or a forum) --- see these situations as if they are voting online for a People's Choice Award at a talent show and are entitled to determine the outcome.

And there's the issue of what a donee-entity will/can do w the property. Is the donee-entity (uni/city/county, who-ev) in a position to spend $$$ to design, create, build, maintain a memorial, to carry liability & casualty ins., provide LE or private security patrols, etc?

Sometimes a prop. transferred as a gift can be a WHITE ELEPHANT to the donor. After receiving the prop. as a gift w no legally imposed conditions, if a public entity was to sell it, I can imagine loud, prolonged negative response from some quarters.

Again, this post is not directed to any posts or posters here specifically.

Holding my breath, but ready to dodge the rotten tomatoes. Hope they're not in cans. ;)

Agree, the house donation to the University was a "white elephant." The university at this point is the recipient only of the gift of land, the real estate on the land has been demolished. I doubt the land parcel is worth $1 million.

Our university received the gift of a former church (decommissoned) adjacent to the university a few years ago. It was transformed internally by the university to provide a meeting space for classes that needed the large space and break out rooms for activities and classes, like the theatre class and some other groups. Eventually it was torn down and a parking lot replaced it. To the members of the community who had an attachment to the church it was painful to see but the spaces that the church building offered weren't very condusive to good use by the university and more parking is always needed. In the future, the university has the opportunity to build something there if needed. For now it is a parking lot and much appreciated by students who pay for parking and now have another option near the university.

If a donor comes along and wants to pay to build a new building there for some purpose that is congruent with the university's mission and needs, I can see it being transformed once again in the future. Similar, possibly, to what will take place at the U of Idaho.
 
  • #523
Has anyone seen any photos/aerial shots of what the property now looks like since the house has been totally demolished and all the debris hauled away? The only photos I've come across are ones during the demo process.

Not trying to be a looky-loo. I just think seeing such a picture (esp an aerial or wide view shot) might help me get a different perspective on the house location/neighborhood layout. I think seeing the house there and the subconscious response to the events of the house influences how we view and think about the neighborhood/layout of the property.
 
  • #524
"Hang Ups" on the 1122 King Demo?
Here's my hangup with the whole house thing. That house and land is not needed for the functionality of the university right now....
.... three of the four victims' families did not want the house taken down before trial. Period. I don't care what their reasons are, or, frankly, whether they are right or wrong. The university re-victimized those three families by being unwilling to wait until after the trial. I believe it likely hurt those families far worse to see the house come down than it would have hurt the university and the public to see the house up for one more year. JMO.
Snipped for focus @TL4S
Here's my hangup with the whole house thing. Bldg & land are not needed for the CRIMINAL TRIAL.

Ppl can say ---the Uni does not "need" the prop.
Okay, maybe no pressing need for the prop or for $$$ the Uni. could receive for selling it ATM.

OP's HURT EQUATION??? OP puts these feelings on a scale to balance ---
Hurt of some student-victims' parents of Goncalvez & ___ by bldg being demo'ed???
..............versus............
Hurt of the Uni. & public in seeing house still standing???

But ^those^ are not the only ppl hurt.
What about the hurt of Ethan's triplet brother still attending U-ID? IIRC, living in place (a frat house?) virtually across the st from 1122 King & IIRC, from his room's window, every day seeing the house where his brother was killed?

Doesn't Ethan's brother's hurt & feelings deserve to be put on the Hurt Equation scale to calculate whose hurt or feelings "outweigh" the others?

As long as he is a U-ID student living there, Ethan's brother still sees the tragic site daily.
I've lost track of who lives where, but IIRC Kaylee's parents live in the Coeur d'Alene, ID area, some 80+ mi. (135 km) & 1 1/2 hr drive away and do not see the site daily. Ditto for some of the other parents/families, some even further away.

If a "majority vote" of hurt is used to resolve a crime-scene-demo question, aren't Ethan's brother's hurt & feelings being completely ignored? Doesn't using this scale totally disregard the hurt of a family member who would prefer for bldg to be demo'ed?

Not trying to be a smart aleck, but maybe some ppl think Ethan's brother should have left his frat, maybe droped out of U-ID altogether, & enrolled in another uni, to assuage the feelings of certain parents/ family of other victims?

Because some parents are the squeaky wheels, are their hurt feelings valued more than others who remain silent or low-key on legal issues & procedures that are not theirs to decide?

Waiting & hoping fervently for successful crim prosecution of the deplorable Piece o' Stuff who savagely killed four people.
 
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  • #525
@Sundog Maybe the Uni should not have accepted the donation. IDK.

ETA: With or w'out accepting the 1122 King prop, the Uni. could have arranged for a healing garden or other memorial on campus. Like the Vandal garden now on the drawing board.

And yes, the Uni has received a lot of criticism, some or most undeserved, imo.

Possibly insurace recouped some of the house for the owner, and donating to deep pocket avoided the 24 hour security that was needed at 30-50 dollars an hour (likely $720 a day.)
 
  • #526
"Hang Ups" on the 1122 King Demo?

Snipped for focus @TL4S
Here's my hangup with the whole house thing. Bldg & land are not needed for the CRIMINAL TRIAL.

Ppl can say ---the Uni does not "need" the prop.
Okay, maybe no pressing need for the prop or for $$$ the Uni. could receive for selling it ATM.

OP's HURT EQUATION??? OP puts these feelings on a scale to balance ---
Hurt of some student-victims' parents of Goncalvez & ___ by bldg being demo'ed???
..............versus............
Hurt of the Uni. & public in seeing house still standing???

But ^those^ are not the only ppl hurt.
What about the hurt of Ethan's triplet brother still attending U-ID? IIRC, living in place (a frat house?) virtually across the st from 1122 King & IIRC, from his room's window, every day seeing the house where his brother was killed?

Doesn't Ethan's brother's hurt & feelings deserve to be put on the Hurt Equation scale to calculate whose hurt or feelings "outweigh" the others?

As long as he is a U-ID student living there, Ethan's brother still sees the tragic site daily.
I've lost track of who lives where, but IIRC Kaylee's parents live in the Coeur d'Alene, ID area, some 80+ mi. (135 km) & 1 1/2 hr drive away and do not see the site daily. Ditto for some of the other parents/families, some even further away.

If a "majority vote" of hurt is used to resolve a crime-scene-demo question, aren't Ethan's brother's hurt & feelings being completely ignored? Doesn't using this scale totally disregard the hurt of a family member who would prefer for bldg to be demo'ed?

Not trying to be a smart aleck, but maybe some ppl think Ethan's brother should have left his frat, maybe droped out of U-ID altogether, & enrolled in another uni, to assuage the feelings of certain parents/ family of other victims?

Because some parents are the squeaky wheels, are their hurt feelings valued more than others who remain silent or low-key on legal issues & procedures that are not theirs to decide?

Waiting & hoping fervently for successful crim prosecution of the deplorable Piece o' Stuff who savagely killed four people.
Indeed, you are right. In an earlier post of mine about the house, I did try to equate E's siblings into the equation. I do not personally feel the siblings should have gone to another school unless they themselves decided that they wanted to, and I completely respect their desire to want the house gone, but they did decide to stay, and that was their choice. None of the family members had a choice about being in this horrible situation.

The unfortunate problem is that four victims' families were deeply and irreparably devastated by this crime. There is no clear and fair way to 'balance' the decision when they don't agree, because there's no way to quantify everybody's hurt. The hurt of the university and the public just cannot be equal to what any of them experience, though, IMO, so I would never pretend to have the answer. Tear the house down, hurt three families. Leave it up, hurt one family. Should more weight go on the family with other children attending the school, even if it is by choice? IDK. Should an attending sibling's feelings have more merit than multiple parents' feelings? IDK? How does anyone know?
 
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  • #527
Possibly insurace recouped some of the house for the owner, and donating to deep pocket avoided the 24 hour security that was needed at 30-50 dollars an hour (likely $720 a day.)

I hope the owner(s) did recoup some money from the insurance of the house, as they are victims and lost future income, real estate values, etc.
 
  • #528
Indeed, you are right. In an earlier post of mine about the house, I did try to equate E's siblings into the equation. I do not personally feel the siblings should have gone to another school unless they themselves decided that they wanted to, and I completely respect their desire to want the house gone, but they did decide to stay, and that was their choice. None of the family members had a choice about being in this horrible situation.

The unfortunate problem is that four victims' families were deeply and irreparably devastated by this crime. There is no clear and fair way to 'balance' the decision when they don't agree, because there's no way to quantify everybody's hurt. The hurt of the university and the public just cannot be equal to what any of them experience, though, IMO, so I would never pretend to have the answer. Tear the house down, hurt three families. Leave it up, hurt one family. Should more weight go on the family with other children attending the school, even if it is by choice? IDK. Should an attending sibling's feelings have more merit than multiple parents' feelings? IDK? How does anyone know?

The University has to think of the thousands of students that study there and live within close proximity to the campus, and this includes each new incoming freshman class as well as current students and alumni/ae. They are responsible to meet the state's mission of educating the next generation of Idaho's citizens. I think they have tried to show great compassion to the families and honor the victims (such as at this year's graduation ceremony, etc.) and yet they have an obligation to focus on their mission and purpose. They had to focus on moving forward, compassonately of course.
 
  • #529
"Hang Ups" on the 1122 King Demo?

Snipped for focus @TL4S
Here's my hangup with the whole house thing. Bldg & land are not needed for the CRIMINAL TRIAL.

Ppl can say ---the Uni does not "need" the prop.
Okay, maybe no pressing need for the prop or for $$$ the Uni. could receive for selling it ATM.

OP's HURT EQUATION??? OP puts these feelings on a scale to balance ---
Hurt of some student-victims' parents of Goncalvez & ___ by bldg being demo'ed???
..............versus............
Hurt of the Uni. & public in seeing house still standing???

But ^those^ are not the only ppl hurt.
What about the hurt of Ethan's triplet brother still attending U-ID? IIRC, living in place (a frat house?) virtually across the st from 1122 King & IIRC, from his room's window, every day seeing the house where his brother was killed?

Doesn't Ethan's brother's hurt & feelings deserve to be put on the Hurt Equation scale to calculate whose hurt or feelings "outweigh" the others?

As long as he is a U-ID student living there, Ethan's brother still sees the tragic site daily.
I've lost track of who lives where, but IIRC Kaylee's parents live in the Coeur d'Alene, ID area, some 80+ mi. (135 km) & 1 1/2 hr drive away and do not see the site daily. Ditto for some of the other parents/families, some even further away.

If a "majority vote" of hurt is used to resolve a crime-scene-demo question, aren't Ethan's brother's hurt & feelings being completely ignored? Doesn't using this scale totally disregard the hurt of a family member who would prefer for bldg to be demo'ed?

Not trying to be a smart aleck, but maybe some ppl think Ethan's brother should have left his frat, maybe droped out of U-ID altogether, & enrolled in another uni, to assuage the feelings of certain parents/ family of other victims?

Because some parents are the squeaky wheels, are their hurt feelings valued more than others who remain silent or low-key on legal issues & procedures that are not theirs to decide?

Waiting & hoping fervently for successful crim prosecution of the deplorable Piece o' Stuff who savagely killed four people.
Actually Ethan's parents were for tearing the house down. Their remaining 2 children (of the triplets) still attend school there. Not arguing if it makes it less or more 'right'. It's a terrible situation BK created by his evil actions.

<snipped>
The family of the only male victim - 20-year-old Ethan Chapin - said in a statement: "We're supportive of the decision to take down the King Street house - for the good of the university, its students (including our own kids), and the community of Moscow."

Here's a link to the latest I could find on it:

Fallout after house at center of Idaho college murders is torn down | What it means for the case
 
  • #530
The University has to think of the thousands of students that study there and live within close proximity to the campus, and this includes each new incoming freshman class as well as current students and alumni/ae. They are responsible to meet the state's mission of educating the next generation of Idaho's citizens. I think they have tried to show great compassion to the families and honor the victims (such as at this year's graduation ceremony, etc.) and yet they have an obligation to focus on their mission and purpose. They had to focus on moving forward, compassonately of course.
Of course, and what a terrible decision to have to make. I wouldn't want to be in any of their shoes, including the university. Does the university have a greater obligation towards its students than the parents of the victims? Maybe. Again, IDK. The university didn't even own that property at the time of the murders, which adds a level of difficulty, imo. But in the end, for one more year, was there really nothing else they could have done but tear it down now? I guess I'm in the minority here who isn't firmly planted on the demolition side. I'm honestly not firmly planted in the keep it up side, either. I find it completely impossible to navigate. And, it's all insignificant now, because the house is no longer.
 
  • #531
Of course, and what a terrible decision to have to make. I wouldn't want to be in any of their shoes, including the university. Does the university have a greater obligation towards its students than the parents of the victims? Maybe. Again, IDK. The university didn't even own that property at the time of the murders, which adds a level of difficulty, imo. But in the end, for one more year, was there really nothing else they could have done but tear it down now? I guess I'm in the minority here who isn't firmly planted on the demolition side. I'm honestly not firmly planted in the keep it up side, either. I find it completely impossible to navigate. And, it's all insignificant now, because the house is no longer.
I understand and respect your thoughts TL. I promise I do. There is no right or wrong here IMO.
 
  • #532
I think it's interesting how some (high profile) cases get people talking about our system of Justice - but rarely with any regard to how much it costs. As trial costs soar everywhere (due to many variables, but obviously, due to an increasing pile of legal precedents, dating back centuries and due to high tech/expensive technological analysis, especially of biological evidence), we do hit some kind of hard ceiling. People don't appear to want higher taxes. State agencies are running increasingly "lean." Healthcare costs (paid in part by the State) soar. Mental health services are nearly non-existent.

Police all over America have invested in bodycams and the technology to use/preserve that data (not cheap). Private lab work only gets more expensive. The cost of DP cases is astronomical and that now plays a factor in some states, as to whether they will even use that option.

At any rate, telling property owners they MUST donate or that some entity MUST build a memorial is a noble ask, but who is to pay for it? Would all the people asking for this be willing to pay? Further, no one can be forced to donate or not tear down - there has to be due process.

That just adds another level of expense to American jurisprudence. And it would spread like wildfire if it were done regularly (is it to only be some crime houses that are preserved? Until someone is convicted and all appeals are made? What about all the uncleared murders in America - where there's a crime scene, but no one arrested yet? Those too?)

My bet is that appeals just on the use of these properties in court (the case law is rife with issues in which jurors could not obey the Court's instructions while on field trips and where one side or the other claimed that the entire thing prejudiced the case.

The excellent post by @girlhasnoname above shows what jurors really care about, IMO.
 
  • #533
Has anyone seen any photos/aerial shots of what the property now looks like since the house has been totally demolished and all the debris hauled away? The only photos I've come across are ones during the demo process.

Not trying to be a looky-loo. I just think seeing such a picture (esp an aerial or wide view shot) might help me get a different perspective on the house location/neighborhood layout. I think seeing the house there and the subconscious response to the events of the house influences how we view and think about the neighborhood/layout of the property.
Costs $700 A day to guard this now empty lot. They will grade it then take off the security. Money comes from a million dollars that was set aside by State Government.

 

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  • #534
Thinking about BK's DNA found at the scene, eyewitness testimony, etc. I found a very interesting article on how evidence is perceived and ranked by Attorneys, jurors, etc. done by the NIH's National Library of Medicine and results from documented Mock juries. It's very interesting (to me) if you have the time to check it out. It's about 5 years old so I'd imagine these results have changed since then, but it was still interesting.

Here's a snippet:
The present research explores how important different trial evidence is to mock jurors’ decisions. Study 1 surveys legal professionals to determine what evidence is common at homicide trials. Study 2 utilizes the list of evidence generated in Study 1 to ask mock jurors to report how important each piece of evidence would be in deciding their verdicts. The results indicate that DNA is most important to mock jurors, followed by fingerprints, the weapon, video records, crime-scene photos, gunshot residue, bodily secretions, video confession, testimony from a forensic expert, and eyewitness testimony. Study 3 utilizes a different methodology wherein mock jurors were presented with folders labeled with different evidence and asked to choose the piece of evidence they wanted to learn more about first, second, and so on. The results from Study 3 indicate again that DNA evidence is most important to mock jurors, followed by video confession evidence, eyewitness testimony, and fingerprint evidence. Implications are discussed.

What Evidence Matters to Jurors? The Prevalence and Importance of Different Homicide Trial Evidence to Mock Jurors

Wow.

The results indicate that DNA is most important to mock jurors, followed by fingerprints, the weapon, video records, crime-scene photos, gunshot residue, bodily secretions, video confession, testimony from a forensic expert, and eyewitness testimony.

Out of 10 types of evidence most important to mock jurors the State of Idaho has 6.

DNA
Video Records (White Car with Phone Evidence)
Crime Scene Photos
Bodily Secretions (Blood Footprint)
Forensic Experts
Eyewitness Testimony
 
  • #535
I hope the owner(s) did recoup some money from the insurance of the house, as they are victims and lost future income, real estate values, etc.
Donation of the property is deductable. It will be deductable for the owners at its previous market value.

The citizens of Idaho will bear the loss of value of the property as they acquire as a donation as if it had its old market value, but of course it doesn't, they be the ones to bear the cost of 24 hour security for a year and demolition.
 
  • #536
Donation of the property is deductable. It will be deductable for the owners at its previous market value.

The citizens of Idaho will bear the loss of value of the property as they acquire as a donation as if it had its old market value, but of course it doesn't, they be the ones to bear the cost of 24 hour security for a year and demolition.
Good observation as the owner at the time of the Murders, needed to get out from under it so a donation was in order. If the owner had not done that they could be liable for accidents, and of course all the "upkeep" costs associated with the property not limited to taxes, security etc. If I had been the owner, that is exactly what I would have done, donate!! JMO
 
  • #537
Atty Advising Parents? Are They Following Advice?
The What attorney lets their clients believe misinformation? who is suppose to talk to the families is the person they hired....Their Attorney.
What attorney lets their clients believe misinformation? Your points are misinformation that their attorney is allowing them to believe......It seems like to me....2Cents
Their attorney is suppose to help them navigate the court system. Gag order brought silence. Not Mr G
..........2 Cents
____________________________________________________ Shannon Gray
View attachment 471528
@Cool Cats My post title pretty much says it.

You ask,"What attorney lets their clients believe misinformation?"
Even if we assume an atty (not speaking re S. Gray specifically) gives clients legal advice, no way for us to know if it entailed competent advice. Where parent-clients educated about the process? Were they advised to basically be low key?
If so, just because they've been publicly vocal on soc media w media coverage, does not necessarily mean that they were advised to take that tack.
Is it possible an/their atty was not consulted specifically about their public stmts in the drafting stage? IDK.
imo

Some patients ignore their doctors' advice & orders.
And some clients ignore their atty's advice.
 
  • #538
Good observation as the owner at the time of the Murders, needed to get out from under it so a donation was in order. If the owner had not done that they could be liable for accidents, and of course all the "upkeep" costs associated with the property not limited to taxes, security etc. If I had been the owner, that is exactly what I would have done, donate!! JMO
Yes. But its good to remember it is shifted to the citizens of Idaho to pay.
 
  • #539
1122 King Rd. Donation. Fed Inc. Tax Deduction?
Donation of the property is deductable. It will be deductable for the owners at its previous market value...
snipped for focus @Boxer Your post takes me back to reading fed. inc. tax materials in my pre-retirement years. Ah, good old IRS Publication 926 "Charitable Contributions."*

Short & Sweet, per Pub. 926, page 3:*
"If you contribute property to a qualified organization, the amount of your charitable contribution is generally the FMV of the property at the time of the contribution."*
The amt of the charitable contribution gen'ly "can't be more than 60% of your AGI, but in some cases 20%, 30%, or 50% limits."

May or may not apply to previous owner's tax situation.
___________________________
* https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p526.pdf
 
  • #540
Atty Advising Parents? Are They Following Advice?

@Cool Cats My post title pretty much says it.

You ask,"What attorney lets their clients believe misinformation?"
Even if we assume an atty (not speaking re S. Gray specifically) gives clients legal advice, no way for us to know if it entailed competent advice. Where parent-clients educated about the process? Were they advised to basically be low key?
If so, just because they've been publicly vocal on soc media w media coverage, does not necessarily mean that they were advised to take that tack.
Is it possible an/their atty was not consulted specifically about their public stmts in the drafting stage? IDK.
imo

Some patients ignore their doctors' advice & orders.
And some clients ignore their atty's advice.

They are accusing the University of ignoring them, like yelling in a void. They don't feel it is giving enough voice to the "children."

Clearly tearing down the house distresses them. They give a whole list of all these "tests" the jury could do in the house.

If I were an attorney and these were my clients I would help them to feel less anxious about the demolition because I would explain why the prosecution can't use the house according to case law - could possibly cause a mistrial.

And I would explain what a jury walk-through is, and no one talks, asks questions or does tests. You go in as "one body" they call it, A tight group silently "crowding" through a creepy house.

In court they will see 3D and photos of how it was that night and they will have the prosecutors right there to explain everything.

I am only guessing that Gray hasn't cleared up the misinformation over the whole subject. I have never seen people demanding to keep a house that cannot be used for a trial and an attorney who seems to go along with it.... *shakes head*

2 Cents
 
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