700 dead and rising in disaster at Mecca, Saudi Arabia

[Hatfield]

Any time a religion (or any belief system) says " It's the will of god..." when something happens-- especially a preventable stampede and ensuing tragedy -- I find it incredibly sad and unfeeling.
Do not mean to offend ,but to my way of thinking, that belief or principle just seems insensitive.
:moo:

This is JMO and personal beliefs:

I relate this incident more to "Free Will" of people rather than the Will of God. Surely God did not want all those people to die.

The Free Will of people allows people to make choices. And unfortunately some bad choices were made in this case. Especially if roads were closed for VIPs then that is a choice that was made.

An analogy would be if the authorities had a road going off the cliff and at the last minute put down a big gate and made everyone funnel onto the 1 road that went off a cliff. The masses of people would have forced many people to go off that cliff because they could not back up.
Someone making a free will choice to put down the gate and change the route.

Another analogy is when we see mass shootings like in the Colorado theatre shooting. I think that is Free Will of the shooter who made a terrible choice. Surely God did not want all those people dead in the theatre.

Some would ask why God allows these things if he could prevent it and in my personal belief I think "Free Will" comes into play. I also think God does prevent certain tragedies and there are miracles every day. Some would then ask why only certain ones are prevented and others not.

Types of questions that we don't know the answer to and maybe we are not meant to ever know the answers.

All JMO as we try to comprehend the disaster.

 

[Sonya610]

This is JMO and personal beliefs:

I relate this incident more to "Free Will" of people rather than the Will of God. Surely God did not want all those people to die.

I have always understood the term inshallah is primarily used when speaking of future events, to recognize that God's will/plan takes precedence over human plans/desires.

For example saying "He will graduate next year, inshallah" or "We will be married next month, inshallah".

Compare that to the Christian prayer practices that frequently call for lots of people to pray for someone that is ill or in need -- which basically implies that God will be more likely to intervene if lots of people ask him to (but less likely to help out if only one person asks?).

While Christians believe it is their duty to constantly tell God what they need, and to petition in mass if someone else is in need Muslims believe that God knows/sees all and has a plan. That doesn't mean people shouldn't be responsible, it just shows the difference between how they view their relationship to God.

 

[Nova]

Do Muslims in the US consider it "inshallah" that SCOTUS legalized gay marriage?

For that matter, do Muslims consider homosexuality "inshallah"? Last I heard, they were still stoning people and throwing people off buildings for being gay. The Kentucky marriage license chick wants to deny gay people marriage licenses, but I haven't heard anything about her advocating stoning them or throwing them off buildings. That seems to be a peculiarly Muslim practice.

I don't presume to know what "all" Muslims think, no more than I ascribed fatalism to "all" Christians. My point wasn't that one faith was better or worse than the other, just that many Christians believe in a God who constantly intervenes in everything we do, say and experience. It isn't a notion unique to Muslims, but it is a concept I find to be ripe with contradictions.

As for stoning gay people, yes, "Christians" still do it here. We just don't have a government that sanctions it officially. But gays are still killed by gay bashers, even in allegedly liberal states such as California and New York. And it was only a few decades ago that our laws DID dole out harsh penalties, including long sentences in prisons and mental institutions, electric-shock treatments and chemical castrations for the "crime" of being different.

Yes, it's been a good year for gay rights in the U.S., but we still lack anti-discrimination laws in most places, so you can get gay-married on Saturday and fired for it on Monday. We have nothing to be smug about.

 

[SophieRose]

I have always understood the term inshallah is primarily used when speaking of future events, to recognize that God's will/plan takes precedence over human plans/desires.

For example saying "He will graduate next year, inshallah" or "We will be married next month, inshallah".

Compare that to the Christian prayer practices that frequently call for lots of people to pray for someone that is ill or in need -- which basically implies that God will be more likely to intervene if lots of people ask him to (but less likely to help out if only one person asks?).

While Christians believe it is their duty to constantly tell God what they need, and to petition in mass if someone else is in need Muslims believe that God knows/sees all and has a plan. That doesn't mean people shouldn't be responsible, it just shows the difference between how they view their relationship to God.

I once worked with a Christian woman (I'm one of those 15% or 22% who doesn't care about religion and claims no religion), a very good and kind woman. One day she told me about all these good thing that had happened to her. I said "Oh, your prayers were answered." She replied, "I never pray for myself, I think that's selfish. I only pray for others."

 

[bluesneakers]

I once worked with a Christian woman (I'm one of those 15% or 22% who doesn't care about religion and claims no religion), a very good and kind woman. One day she told me about all these good thing that had happened to her. I said "Oh, your prayers were answered." She replied, "I never pray for myself, I think that's selfish. I only pray for others."

I've known Christians who pray with special requests and Christians who pray that something "will be God's will" because praying for specifics would be presumptuous. And I've known lots of Christians who use "God's will" or "God's plan" to explain when bad things happen. Like why did the Towers get hit? Why did Hurricane Katrina destroy New Orleans? Why did dad get fired? It's all part of God's plan, it will be revealed, etc.

 

[SophieRose]

Sources say some roads/entrances were closed because either a Saudi Prince or Dignitaries were visiting. The closures caused a mass of people to accumulate on other roads.

http://www.aljazeera.com/blogs/middleeast/2015/09/human-cost-hajj-stampede-150926133507886.html

A report published in the UK- based Independent, citing tour operators, said that Saudi security forces had blocked roads ahead of the arrival of dignitaries.

For those who know the area where the stampede occurred, this report seems far from reality.

The relatively humble area is far from the entrance to Mina and houses ordinary pilgrims arriving from outside of Saudi Arabia.

Important personalities stay in areas close to the entrance and their convoys are assigned separate tunnels and roads to facilitate their movement.

 

[K_Z]

First Hajj stampede bodies arrive in Iran

Arrival of 104 bodies of pilgrims comes nine days after disaster that escalated tensions between Tehran and Riyadh.

Tallies of the dead from foreign officials and media from 24 countries put the toll at 1,036, well in excess of the Saudi figure.

With many more pilgrims still listed as missing, Iranian officials say the real toll is between 2,000 and 4,000.

Iran appears to have lost the largest number of pilgrims, saying 464 of its nationals died in the incident.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/hajj-stampede-bodies-arrive-iran-151003070754918.html

Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei called on Saudi Arabia to apologize for the deadly stampede and threatened “tough and harsh” retaliation over the incident.

"Saudi Arabia failed to fulfill its duties concerning the desperate wounded (pilgrims)," Khamenei said Wednesday, according to Iran's official Press TV. "Should we decide to show any reaction, our reaction will be tough and harsh.”

The kingdom also drew criticism from Indonesia, Nigeria and Syria for the deadly stampede, which occurred just days after a giant construction crane collapsed at another major Islamic holy site, the Grand Mosque in Mecca, killing at least 110 people and injuring more than 390.

http://www.ibtimes.com/hajj-stamped...-464-no-hope-finding-over-200-missing-2122327

The Emir of Kano, Alhaji Muhammad Sanusi II, on Friday said Nigerians will no longer participate in the stoning of devil ritual, except they get accommodation close to Jamrat, where the exercise will take place.

The Emir, who quoted several verses of the Qur’an, said refusal to perform the stoning of devil ritual does not in any way invalidate one’s pilgrimage.

“If one deliberately refuses to perform the stoning of the devil ritual, all he needs to do is just to slaughter a ram. So, if this is the situation, why do we go and suffer and die instead of sacrificing a ram.”

http://www.vanguardngr.com/2015/10/hajj-stampede-nigerians-would-no-longer-stone-devil-sanusi/

(KZ note- the Saudis have blamed the Nigerians for starting the stampede, and criticized them for not being able to read schedules and signs in Arabic or English. The Iranians, Nigerians, and Syrians blame the Saudis for mismanagement of the large religious event.)

 

[tangelo]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/hajj-stampede-bodies-arrive-iran-151003070754918.html



http://www.ibtimes.com/hajj-stamped...-464-no-hope-finding-over-200-missing-2122327



http://www.vanguardngr.com/2015/10/hajj-stampede-nigerians-would-no-longer-stone-devil-sanusi/

(KZ note- the Saudis have blamed the Nigerians for starting the stampede, and criticized them for not being able to read schedules and signs in Arabic or English. The Iranians, Nigerians, and Syrians blame the Saudis for mismanagement of the large religious event.)

ok we all need to get the word out on this ram slaughtering option. think of the lives that'll be saved in next years stampede. will rams be provided or do you have to bring your own?

 

[K_Z]

There may be an uptick in the demand for male goats, for sure!

If I were a goat farmer in Saudi Arabia, I'd take notice, and increase my supply of rams.

Will increase the donations of goat meat slaughtered at Hajj, to the poor, for sure.

https://notsohairyjerry.wordpress.c...dinner-or-as-westerners-tranlate-a-goat-grab/

This meal is eaten with your fingers by scooping up the rice in a ball and pulling the hot meat off of the carcus. If you are a guest of an important person there will be a guard/servant nearby with a very sharp 12″ dagger to slice off the best parts of the lamb or goat for the guest. Guests, men and sons eat first followed by the help or women and daughters.

 

[K_Z]

New tally in Saudi hajj disaster shows at least 1,399 killed

The crush and stampede last month outside of Saudi Arabia's holy city of Mecca killed at least 1,399 people during the hajj pilgrimage, a new tally Thursday showed, 630 more than the kingdom's official toll.

Saudi Arabia has been hesitant to release updated casualty figures from the Sept. 24 stampede in Mina, even as hundreds remain missing.

"Discrediting the Saudi handling of the hajj undermines the kingdom's prestige and legitimacy across the Islamic world," Bruce Riedel, a former CIA officer who now runs the Washington-based Brookings Institution's intelligence project, wrote on one of the think tank's blogs this week.

With hundreds missing, a final death toll remains in question, even as the latest count brings the number of dead even closer to the deadliest disaster to ever strike the hajj — a stampede in 1990 that killed 1,426 people.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...ws-at-least-1399-killed/ar-AAfeFx6?li=BBieTUX

BBM.

 

[Elley Mae]

I would not expect to see msm carry a story that would make the us look good, sa beheads people all the time. I believe it. jmo idk

Saudi Arabia has beheaded 19 people in one month. Isil would be proud

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/t...d-19-people-in-one-month-isil-would-be-proud/

Saudi Arabia Executes 100th Prisoner Of The Year

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/16/saudi-arabia-executions-100_n_7595816.html

 

[bluesneakers]

I would not expect to see msm carry a story that would make the us look good, sa beheads people all the time. I believe it. jmo idk

Saudi Arabia has beheaded 19 people in one month. Isil would be proud

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/t...d-19-people-in-one-month-isil-would-be-proud/

Saudi Arabia Executes 100th Prisoner Of The Year

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/16/saudi-arabia-executions-100_n_7595816.html

One of those articles is a year old and the other is from four months ago. Neither article has anything to do with what happened in Mecca.

 

[SophieRose]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...6c5794-6e77-11e5-91eb-27ad15c2b723_story.html

The crush and stampede last month outside of Saudi Arabia’s holy city of Mecca killed at least 1,453 people during the hajj, a new tally showed on Friday to make it the deadliest event to ever strike the annual pilgrimage.

snip

The AP figure comes from statements and officials’ comments from 19 of the over 180 countries that sent citizens to the five-day annual pilgrimage.

 

[bluesneakers]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...6c5794-6e77-11e5-91eb-27ad15c2b723_story.html

The crush and stampede last month outside of Saudi Arabia’s holy city of Mecca killed at least 1,453 people during the hajj, a new tally showed on Friday to make it the deadliest event to ever strike the annual pilgrimage.

snip

The AP figure comes from statements and officials’ comments from 19 of the over 180 countries that sent citizens to the five-day annual pilgrimage.

At least 1,453 dead. It's difficult to comprehend that number. It's as if all the fatalities from Hurricane Katrina took place at one time in one spot. I've looked at the pictures but it still seems impossible to me. Surreal.

 

[SophieRose]

At least 1,453 dead. It's difficult to comprehend that number. It's as if all the fatalities from Hurricane Katrina took place at one time in one spot. I've looked at the pictures but it still seems impossible to me. Surreal.

One reporter said that they were not allowed into the area until seven hours after it happened, so I don't think the pictures reflect the worst of it. Although one would think there would be pictures and video taken with iphones.

 

[K_Z]

Saudi Arabia hajj disaster death toll at least 2,110

Crown Prince Mohammed bin Naif bin Abdul Aziz, who is also the kingdom's interior minister, oversaw the meeting late Sunday, according to the official Saudi Press Agency. It did not mention any official response to the rising death toll. The country's own toll since Sept. 26 has stood at 769 people killed and 934 injured.

"The crown prince was reassured on the progress of the investigations," the SPA report said. "He directed the committee's members to continue their efforts to find the causes of the accident, praying to Allah Almighty to accept the martyrs and wishing the injured a speedy recovery."

The AP figure comes from state media reports and officials' comments from 30 of the over 180 countries that sent citizens to the five-day annual pilgrimage, which is required of all able-bodied Muslims.

The previous deadliest-ever incident at hajj was a 1990 stampede that killed 1,426 people.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...death-toll-at-least-2110/ar-AAfCeK6?li=AA54ur

 

[bluesneakers]

Hajj pilgrims to be given e-bracelets

It follows a stampede last year in which more than 750 people are believed to have died, with 900 injured.
...
Nearly 1,000 new surveillance cameras have also been installed.

The ID bracelets will contain crucial information such as passport numbers and addresses but will also offer information to worshippers, such as timings of prayers and a multi-lingual help desk to guide non-Arabic speakers around the event.

Hajj 2016: Saudi Arabia introduces bracelets for safety

After last year's stampede that killed hundreds, Riyadh introduces new safety measures to monitor pilgrims' movements.

Water-resistant and connected to GPS, the devices will also instruct worshippers on timings of prayers and a multi-lingual help desk to guide especially non-Arabic speaking pilgrims around the various rituals of the annual Islamic event.

http://damdaar.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/236-620x382.jpg

 

[Hatfield]

Hajj pilgrims to be given e-bracelets



Hajj 2016: Saudi Arabia introduces bracelets for safety

http://damdaar.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/236-620x382.jpg

JMO

Thanks for sharing that. It is interesting.

It may be a step in the right direction but why do I get the feeling that they are expecting more deaths this year and this bracelet is being done mainly just to identify the bodies.

It was such a tragedy last year. Wish more was being done to prevent the tragedy from reocurring.
The only solution I could think of involves staggering the days that people could travel there and the problem with that solution is it seems to go against their beliefs because I think they are supposed to go in a certain time period.

For me personally I am sure my higher being in my religion would forgive me if I traveled there during a different time to observe the tradition but stay alive and not be trampled to death.

That is the biggest problem I see in some beliefs. Not just this particular belief system. The old texts were written years ago and I think some things can be slightly altered based on necessity so long as you still follow the main intent of the belief system. Since the masses have made it impossible to not have huge stampedes then necessity means you have to stagger the visitation and I am sure that I would be forgiven for that in order to stay alive.

Just my thoughts about it.

 

[K_Z]

A comparison to the Disney World Magic Bands is irresistable. (But it's pretty unlikely these bracelets will have an image of muhammad on them.)

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/...es-bracelets-hajj-safety-160630131905794.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/hajj-pilgrims-bracelets-safety-measure/story?id=40276655

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/hajj-2016-...ntification-bracelets-pilgrims-safety-1568422

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36675180

Remember-- nearly 2500 died at the Hajj in 2015-- many more than in the title of this thread, which was never updated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Mina_stampede

 

[K_Z]

Just imagine if 2500 Catholic pilgrims were crushed or trampled to death at St. Peter's square Christmas eve, and hundreds were never identified or returned to their countries and families. Would the Vatican respond by issuing bracelets? It's an interesting thought experiment.


**Hajj 2016 begins in about 8 weeks-- September 9.