9/11 remains to be placed below ground in museum, families upset

[Nova]

Can you explain to me how my response did not actually respond to your post?????????????

Apparently not, since I've posted the same thing twice to no avail.

What you call melodrama, I call my OPINION.
Charging family members to visit the remains of the victims of 9/11 would be disgusting.
JMO MOO IMO IMHO and all that jazz. :smile:

Yes, we are both expressing our opinions. I thought that was self-evident.

 

[Nova]

Well that's just sad. JMO
I would NEVER refer to the family members of 9/11 as wallowing in self pity or yammering to the press or any of the other things that have been stated in your posts this morning.

The remains are still in limbo. So, them caring about what are done with them is "wallowing in self pity"????
GMAB

It's not that they care, it's that they can't see that considerable thought has already gone into planning for the remains. It's that they demand the right to dictate terms for many thousands of other relatives, the community and the State and City of New York.

None of those I know who lost friends or relatives on 9/11 have any patience with this group.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

It's not that they care, it's that they can't see that considerable thought has already gone into planning for the remains. It's that they demand the right to dictate terms for many thousands of other relatives, the community and the State and City of New York.

None of those I know who lost friends or relatives on 9/11 have any patience with this group.

It is that they care! Who cares about how much thought was put into the current plan. They notified some, but not all of the family members. Why not all?
They are demanding to be heard. I don't see them as trying to dictate terms for many thousands of other relatives, the communnity and the state.
They are fighting for what they feel is right.

I saw a quote in an article this morining from a mother of a fallen firefighter. She said she would never bury her son in a basement of a museum. She wants to be heard for what she feels is right. She is fighting for what she thinks is right for her son. How can we just ignore a mother's wishes and rebuild.
They must be heard. It's the American way.

I'm sure you do know some who have no patience for "this group" as I'm sure some of "this group" has no patience for them. Who is to say who is right.
They should all be heard.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

I think, IMVHO, that the news article published should be reread. 50 people out of so many who lost loved ones on 9/11 are taking a stand separate from others. They were part of discussions as to how to show respect for the many remains unidentified with dignity and respect. Frankly, 50 people holding the final celebration (those who died deserve nothing less) of goodbye to those who died and their families comes across so wrong. And, to hire legal counsel to make it that much harder for others still grieving sounds personal and self serving.

It's time let go and begin living again for all these families. To have closure. I was fortunate that day that my daughter, who was a freshman in college at Wagner University did not have a class scheduled in the city that day. However, many of her friends lost family in those two towers. It was the most horrific time on so many levels. As a Mom who could not get hold of her, as a woman who knew friends here lost close ones on the American airlines from Boston, and to witness, personally, the trucks transporting the remains of towers to the Staten Island landfill when I drove my daughter back to college a week later. The smoke still rising from that tragic site.

Yes, I rambled as it is still so very, very fresh in my mind. That said, it's time to let things rest. I have absolutely no doubt that it will be done with the utmost respect, dignity deserved, and with tears of closure.

imvho

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I value your opinion ordinarylife.

But my heart breaks for those mothers and fathers who don't feel that way. To know their child is going to be in a basement in a museum when they feel VERY strongly that it is disrespectful.

I think they should all be heard and maybe a compromise can happen.

JMO

 

[Nova]

I value your opinion ordinarylife.

But my heart breaks for those mothers and fathers who don't feel that way. To know their child is going to be in a basement in a museum when they feel VERY strongly that it is disrespectful.

I think they should all be heard and maybe a compromise can happen.

JMO

What you don't seem to understand is that this IS the compromise. It isn't something somebody decided one morning on a whim.

One mother says she wouldn't bury her firefighter son in a museum?! Well, of course she wouldn't under normal circumstances, but as you yourself have noted, these aren't normal circumstances.

And we aren't talking about that mother's son's individual body. We're talking about a large quantity of human remains that can't be identified (or at least it would be too expensive to do so). Burying them under a museum devoted to the tragedy in which they died is by no means disrespectful.

If it doesn't please every single relative of every single victim, well, how could it?

Phrases like "everybody should be heard" ring hollow after all these years. Everybody has been heard--again and again.

It's time to rebuild.

***

BTW, you never answered my question: if I am shot to death in your front yard, do my relatives get to dictate what you do with your property from then on? Because that's what you are proposing here.

 

[peeples]

Can't the remains be split up however many ways and put into an urn and each family make their own decision as to what should be done with their "portion"???

 

[OrdinaryLife]

I value your opinion ordinarylife.

But my heart breaks for those mothers and fathers who don't feel that way. To know their child is going to be in a basement in a museum when they feel VERY strongly that it is disrespectful.

I think they should all be heard and maybe a compromise can happen.

JMO

In my opinion, to consistantly hear that remains will be in the basement is a misleading statement. That isn't fair to anyone. Those who lost their lives and to their families. I must ask this question: Have you been to the site, seen the memorials, been to the park where the "ball" lies as a reminder of this tragedy? Looked at the surround buildings that survived the "bombing" and literally be stunned that others were not killed? I ask with total gentleness from my heart. There is absolutely no possible way that the remains will be dealt with in disrespect. No way.

imvho

 

[Nova]

I think, IMVHO, that the news article published should be reread. 50 people out of so many who lost loved ones on 9/11 are taking a stand separate from others. They were part of discussions as to how to show respect for the many remains unidentified with dignity and respect. Frankly, 50 people holding the final celebration (those who died deserve nothing less) of goodbye to those who died and their families comes across so wrong. And, to hire legal counsel to make it that much harder for others still grieving sounds personal and self serving.

It's time let go and begin living again for all these families. To have closure. I was fortunate that day that my daughter, who was a freshman in college at Wagner University did not have a class scheduled in the city that day. However, many of her friends lost family in those two towers. It was the most horrific time on so many levels. As a Mom who could not get hold of her, as a woman who knew friends here lost close ones on the American airlines from Boston, and to witness, personally, the trucks transporting the remains of towers to the Staten Island landfill when I drove my daughter back to college a week later. The smoke still rising from that tragic site.

Yes, I rambled as it is still so very, very fresh in my mind. That said, it's time to let things rest. I have absolutely no doubt that it will be done with the utmost respect, dignity deserved, and with tears of closure.

imvho

Thank you. Great post and I appreciate the personal insight.

It isn't that I actually have no sympathy for the relatives of 9/11 victims. But leaving a hole in the ground year after year dishonors those who rushed into the building without regard for their own safety as well as those who were trapped inside when the Towers collapsed.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

Can't the remains be split up however many ways and put into an urn and each family make their own decision as to what should be done with their "portion"???

No. Unidentified remains. Many legal/ethical reasons for that.

 

[Nova]

Can't the remains be split up however many ways and put into an urn and each family make their own decision as to what should be done with their "portion"???

That's very Solomonic, but I doubt anyone would be happy with an urn filled with some stranger's remains.

ETA Besides, the 9/11 victims died together. As with the sailors of the Arizona, burying them together is only fitting. (Yes, I realize these remains are only those that couldn't be identified. Individuals who could be identified have already been interred elsewhere.)

 

[Kimberlyd125]

What you don't seem to understand is that this IS the compromise. It isn't something somebody decided one morning on a whim.

One mother says she wouldn't bury her firefighter son in a museum?! Well, of course she wouldn't under normal circumstances, but as you yourself have noted, these aren't normal circumstances.

And we aren't talking about that mother's son's individual body. We're talking about a large quantity of human remains that can't be identified (or at least it would be too expensive to do so). Burying them under a museum devoted to the tragedy in which they died is by no means disrespectful.
If it doesn't please every single relative of every single victim, well, how could it?

Phrases like "everybody should be heard" ring hollow after all these years. Everybody has been heard--again and again.

It's time to rebuild.

***

BTW, you never answered my question: if I am shot to death in your front yard, do my relatives get to dictate what you do with your property from then on? Because that's what you are proposing here.

BBM - Well, in the opinion of others, it is disrespectul. I think a mother's opinion of what is respectful/disrespectful kinda trumps yours. JMO

And I didn't answer your question because I found it to be a ridiculous one. But, if you were shot on my lawn, I wouldn't try to bury you in my yard 70 feet deep against your family's wishes.
As a matter of fact, I would hope your body is returned to your family. Because it could be. In this case, those remains can not be.
Every family member should be heard. If that rings "hollow" to you, so be it.

 

[peeples]

I know they are unidentified. I've seen cremated remains before and I'm going to assume that is kinda what is being dealt with.
As someone above pointed out.. this is not a normal situation... Seems like an exception could be made to appease all the families. The 50 that want a say over where their relatives are, and the rest who are ok with the museum/monument idea.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

In my opinion, to consistantly hear that remains will be in the basement is a misleading statement. That isn't fair to anyone. Those who lost their lives and to their families. I must ask this question: Have you been to the site, seen the memorials, been to the park where the "ball" lies as a reminder of this tragedy? Looked at the surround buildings that survived the "bombing" and literally be stunned that others were not killed? I ask with total gentleness from my heart. There is absolutely no possible way that the remains will be dealt with in disrespect. No way.

imvho

Several articles I have read have said the remains will be in the basement.
Me saying that is misleading how? How is it unfair? If that's where they will be?

No, I have never been. I've never been to NY at all. But, I still think the families should be heard. A compromise could be reached. Y'all keep saying "it's been 10 years!". AND???? It's been 10 years, so a couple more months will not make that much of a difference.
The families should have more say so than anybody else.

 

[peeples]

Well on a documentary on the History channel I saw quite a while back on Pearl Harbor they said the remains were not recovered due to logistics at that time.
Here in this situation we actually DO have remains. So i don't think they should be compared.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

Several articles I have read have said the remains will be in the basement.
Me saying that is misleading how? How is it unfair? If that's where they will be?

No, I have never been. I've never been to NY at all. But, I still think the families should be heard. A compromise could be reached. Y'all keep saying "it's been 10 years!". AND???? It's been 10 years, so a couple more months will not make that much of a difference.
The families should have more say so than anybody else.

In my opinion, when I read "In the basement", I see it as being dumped like when I toss in my basement the stuff I don't need, but it's a good place to store it. Spiderwebs, dust, and the occasional "Where the heck did that come from?".

It will not be the case regarding these victims remains. I have absolutely no doubt.

imvho

 

[OrdinaryLife]

Well on a documentary on the History channel I saw quite a while back on Pearl Harbor they said the remains were not recovered due to logistics at that time.
Here in this situation we actually DO have remains. So i don't think they should be compared.

Actually, yes it can be compared. The remains found from 9/11, with all the science made possible, could not identify the remains to family members. The recovery of remains from Pearl Harbor, for that time period, should be understood as not possible.

A fair point of discussion.

imvho

 

[hockeymom]

The reality is this,the remains are all over the grounds at the site. Maybe they should have whatever they are building in the museum and some other area with a marker outside. I think everyone could be satisfied.
It might seem that the 50 families are being unreasonable,but how much more would it cost to have a small area that loved ones can visit outside? If it means going ahead with the building finally just do it.

 

[Kat]

This is a tough one to call.

Yes the family members of those that were killed in the attacks have the ultimate say in where their loved ones are laid to rest.

I have no argument with that at all. I agree.

These remains (remains don't mean a full set of remains but rather I'm guessing given what we all saw that day these are, more than likely, varied remains. A polite way of saying partial remains that can't be indentified or were not claimed for various reasons for many different victims).

IIRC DNA testing was done on all remains that could be tested so there's a good chance that these remains do not belong to the families that are objecting?

Are the family members objecting the ones that still have loved ones that have not been accounted for? If so then by all means grant their wish.

If not, then I, in my head, do equate the remains with those remains that were entombed within the Arizona at Pearl Harbor and with those interred in the tomb of the unknown soldier.

In my mind the argument they make could have been made by any of the family members who lost a solider in WW1 and the remains were never found.

This is an emotional subject, as well it should be. I'm just not sure how I think about this right this minute. I'll have to ponder it a bit. All JMHO.

 

[Nova]

BBM - Well, in the opinion of others, it is disrespectul. I think a mother's opinion of what is respectful/disrespectful kinda trumps yours. JMO

And I didn't answer your question because I found it to be a ridiculous one. But, if you were shot on my lawn, I wouldn't try to bury you in my yard 70 feet deep against your family's wishes.
As a matter of fact, I would hope your body is returned to your family. Because it could be. In this case, those remains can not be.
Every family member should be heard. If that rings "hollow" to you, so be it.

You're right that my question is partly facetious, but the underlying principle is not. And you're right, the problem with the analogy is that I as an individual can be easily identified and retrieved.

So let's refine the question: what about people who were killed by a tsunami at a Thai resort? Many of them were never recovered. Do their relatives get to dictate what is done on that property or does the resort get a pass because the bodies most likely ended up at sea?

Fifty-some people were killed in one apartment building in the Northridge earthquake of 1994. I think most of the remains were recovered, but no doubt some DNA ended up in the rubble. Should the relative of those victims be allowed to dictate how that land is used in the future?

Differences in analogies notwithstanding, you and the 50 people of the article are still arguing a new principle in law: that somehow dying on a property conveys ownership of that property to your survivors. I'm sure you can see why that is an unworkable principle.

And while you love to make pronouncements such as the one above about how one grieving mother trumps my personal opinion, that's a gross oversimplification of the issue. Your posts are as fallacious as the article, which wants to stir up hysteria (mission accomplished!) by implying the issue is grieving survivors v. heartless bureaucrats.

But that's not the case. This is a tiny minority of survivors trying to keep outrage alive v. the vast majority who recognize the need to reach a compromise and move on. It isn't possible to compromise when every proposed solution is denounced by someone as "insensitive" and "disrespectful."