911 Call

[DeeDee249]

I'm not really firmly in one camp or the other, I think that's why i'm so intrigued by this case because I just don't know...AND REALLY WANT TO! There seems to be evidence pointing everyway. It does make sense that Patsy would 'neglect' to mention the warnings in the note and muddy the scene as much as possible. FBI should have handled this case from the get go, DAMN YOU BOULDER LE!

The FBI's CASKU (Child Abduction and Serial Killer Unit) division was called in right at the start because it was first thought to be a kidnapping. It was the chief of police who sent them away, as well as refusing help from the larger and more experienced Denver police dept. Foolhardy and narcissistic behavior on his part, and the TV movie PMPT shows what was probably a dead-on recreation of his attitudes and that of the rest of LE on he case. Makes me want to throw something at the TV.
Once if was a murder, the local DA had jurisdiction, and though they could have called the FBI back on the case at any time, chose not to. Had the FBI stayed involved, we wouldn't be here because they saw immediately what was going on- they'd seen it many times before (parent/caregiver involvement in a child's alleged "disappearance/kidnapping" which turned out to be a murder).
Of course, once the body was found by a parent in the home, it was clear that it was not a child abduction nor was it the work of a serial killer. So that particular unit (CASKU) would no longer be involved.
It makes me so angry to hear JR blathering about using the FBI, etc- because the family could have had the FBI if they wanted. The truth is, they did NOT want the FBI involved- because they might actually figure out the parents were involved.

 

[Stef88]

The amount of mistakes made by police at the initial crime scene ALONE is mind boggling. I feel a little sorry for Ardnt (sp?) being left there for hours alone and calling repeatedly for back up but not getting any, but STILL you don't send off the witnesses to check the house gah! I think even I could have handled the scene better! From what I get from PMPT this case didn't stand much of a chance, sickening arrogance and dueling egos between the DA and police seem to have derailed what little hope there was. I've read in so many cases how different police/legal divisions don't get along but it always amazes me how getting justice for the victim can so easily take the backseat to egos and arrogance.

 

[Abrego]

Hello WSers. I'm a recent member and this is my first posting so please pardon any improprieties.

What initially brought me here was the recent book/media tour of JR. I knew next to nothing about the case, and assumed the final word on the street was that the Ramseys did it, but the police/DA's office botched the case. With that in mind, I was very surprised to see JR touting his new book on The View, with Barbara Walters saying (I'm paraphrasing) "I always knew you and Patsy were innocent." I was like, "Wow! He must be innocent. Why else would he call attention to himself after all these years? If he had blood on his hands, he'd have gone quietly away." That lead me to research the case, which led me to this amazingly informative site!

Until this thread, I'd accepted Patsy calling 911, I guess because she "found" the note. But the note was addressed to John, and he was awake and presumably right there, so now it makes sense that he'd make the call. It's like Patsy was manning the ship. And "We have a kidnapping" I find odd too. It's like the example in the FBI link, where "I have" is taking possession of the problem.

Also I want to mention I think taking JB's body out of the house was too much to handle, either logistically or more likely (IMO), emotionally. Patsy wouldn't leave her baby's body in the cold for someone ELSE (or something else (animals)) to harm. She was probably very protective, as evidenced by that last photo of her hugging JB that morning.

Anyway, thanks all for your insightful perspectives.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

That Christmas morning photo shows Pasty with her hand clamped (clenched?) on JonBenet's right arm, and is in the same place where old bruises are seen in several videos and photos.

Look at the " God Bless America" videos and you'll see old bruises on the right inside above the inner part arm.

Another video is of JonBenet in her Las Vegas costumes. Look at her right arm. More old bruising

A strange place for a child to get a bruise. I can understand bruises on kids, but it's the place of those bruises that says a lot.

 

[DeeDee249]

Hello WSers. I'm a recent member and this is my first posting so please pardon any improprieties.

What initially brought me here was the recent book/media tour of JR. I knew next to nothing about the case, and assumed the final word on the street was that the Ramseys did it, but the police/DA's office botched the case. With that in mind, I was very surprised to see JR touting his new book on The View, with Barbara Walters saying (I'm paraphrasing) "I always knew you and Patsy were innocent." I was like, "Wow! He must be innocent. Why else would he call attention to himself after all these years? If he had blood on his hands, he'd have gone quietly away." That lead me to research the case, which led me to this amazingly informative site!

Until this thread, I'd accepted Patsy calling 911, I guess because she "found" the note. But the note was addressed to John, and he was awake and presumably right there, so now it makes sense that he'd make the call. It's like Patsy was manning the ship. And "We have a kidnapping" I find odd too. It's like the example in the FBI link, where "I have" is taking possession of the problem.

Also I want to mention I think taking JB's body out of the house was too much to handle, either logistically or more likely (IMO), emotionally. Patsy wouldn't leave her baby's body in the cold for someone ELSE (or something else (animals)) to harm. She was probably very protective, as evidenced by that last photo of her hugging JB that morning.

Anyway, thanks all for your insightful perspectives.

Welcome to the forum!

JR's best way of protecting his secrets is to tout his innocence. He has nothing to fear- of the three people who survived that night, one has since died and the other is his son. NO worries about someone coming forward. His lawyers will quickly put an end to anyone else.
Baba Wawa and her shills are soft on ANY kind of crime, so no surprises there.
I totally agree with your opinions on dumping JB's body outside the house. No way do I see the parents doing that.
As far as the ransom note, you are correct that it was addressed to JR only. But as you are new to the case, you may not be aware that there was a PRACTICE note found on that pad, which was addressed to " Mr. & Mrs. Ramsey". Patsy's sister admitted that Patsy wrote that, and claimed it was supposed to be the start of an invitation to a party. Right.
You will find a lot of information here: http://www.acandyrose.com Be sure to scroll down to the JonBenet Archives. There is tons of info there, including police interviews with the parents, crime photos of the house and the autopsy report. It is where I started my research on this case before I joined. I also recommend reading any of the books recommended on that site as well.

 

[azwriter]

Hello WSers. I'm a recent member and this is my first posting so please pardon any improprieties.

What initially brought me here was the recent book/media tour of JR. I knew next to nothing about the case, and assumed the final word on the street was that the Ramseys did it, but the police/DA's office botched the case. With that in mind, I was very surprised to see JR touting his new book on The View, with Barbara Walters saying (I'm paraphrasing) "I always knew you and Patsy were innocent." I was like, "Wow! He must be innocent. Why else would he call attention to himself after all these years? If he had blood on his hands, he'd have gone quietly away." That lead me to research the case, which led me to this amazingly informative site!

Until this thread, I'd accepted Patsy calling 911, I guess because she "found" the note. But the note was addressed to John, and he was awake and presumably right there, so now it makes sense that he'd make the call. It's like Patsy was manning the ship. And "We have a kidnapping" I find odd too. It's like the example in the FBI link, where "I have" is taking possession of the problem.

Also I want to mention I think taking JB's body out of the house was too much to handle, either logistically or more likely (IMO), emotionally. Patsy wouldn't leave her baby's body in the cold for someone ELSE (or something else (animals)) to harm. She was probably very protective, as evidenced by that last photo of her hugging JB that morning.

Anyway, thanks all for your insightful perspectives.

:welcome4:

and continue to post.

 

[UKGuy]

Hello WSers. I'm a recent member and this is my first posting so please pardon any improprieties.

What initially brought me here was the recent book/media tour of JR. I knew next to nothing about the case, and assumed the final word on the street was that the Ramseys did it, but the police/DA's office botched the case. With that in mind, I was very surprised to see JR touting his new book on The View, with Barbara Walters saying (I'm paraphrasing) "I always knew you and Patsy were innocent." I was like, "Wow! He must be innocent. Why else would he call attention to himself after all these years? If he had blood on his hands, he'd have gone quietly away." That lead me to research the case, which led me to this amazingly informative site!

Until this thread, I'd accepted Patsy calling 911, I guess because she "found" the note. But the note was addressed to John, and he was awake and presumably right there, so now it makes sense that he'd make the call. It's like Patsy was manning the ship. And "We have a kidnapping" I find odd too. It's like the example in the FBI link, where "I have" is taking possession of the problem.

Also I want to mention I think taking JB's body out of the house was too much to handle, either logistically or more likely (IMO), emotionally. Patsy wouldn't leave her baby's body in the cold for someone ELSE (or something else (animals)) to harm. She was probably very protective, as evidenced by that last photo of her hugging JB that morning.

Anyway, thanks all for your insightful perspectives.

Abrego,

Why else would he call attention to himself after all these years?

Some might suggest he needs his ego stroked on a regular basis, others that he needs to reinvent himself after marrying again?

It's like Patsy was manning the ship.

Sure, and the forensic evidence suggests she killed JonBenet too.

Also I want to mention I think taking JB's body out of the house was too much to handle, either logistically or more likely (IMO), emotionally.

Possibly, but how much more than tightening the noose around your baby's neck and pulling tight?

PDI looks fine, even the BPD thought along these lines, but the bugaboo is the evidence of chronic and acute sexual assault, how does PDI explain that away?


.

 

[Chrishope]

Hello WSers. I'm a recent member and this is my first posting so please pardon any improprieties.

What initially brought me here was the recent book/media tour of JR. I knew next to nothing about the case, and assumed the final word on the street was that the Ramseys did it, but the police/DA's office botched the case. With that in mind, I was very surprised to see JR touting his new book on The View, with Barbara Walters saying (I'm paraphrasing) "I always knew you and Patsy were innocent." I was like, "Wow! He must be innocent. Why else would he call attention to himself after all these years? If he had blood on his hands, he'd have gone quietly away." That lead me to research the case, which led me to this amazingly informative site!

Until this thread, I'd accepted Patsy calling 911, I guess because she "found" the note. But the note was addressed to John, and he was awake and presumably right there, so now it makes sense that he'd make the call. It's like Patsy was manning the ship. And "We have a kidnapping" I find odd too. It's like the example in the FBI link, where "I have" is taking possession of the problem.

Also I want to mention I think taking JB's body out of the house was too much to handle, either logistically or more likely (IMO), emotionally. Patsy wouldn't leave her baby's body in the cold for someone ELSE (or something else (animals)) to harm. She was probably very protective, as evidenced by that last photo of her hugging JB that morning.

Anyway, thanks all for your insightful perspectives.

Welcome.

There are so many angles to approach this from that it's hard to say what really happened.

I think you may be on the right track when you say PR was taking control. If PDI and JR more or less went along with things, as many believe, then PR would have to take control.

But, if we play along with how the events were supposed to unfold (I mean, the way the Rs wanted the world to see things) then PR would get up before JR, start down the stairs, see the note, and call police. She even mentions only reading the first part of the note, so there is a plausible explanation for not following instructions.

As for moving the body, I think its very possible that the original plan was to take the body from the house -the note is not very convincing with the body in the basement- but that plan was abandoned for some reason. IMO, the most likely reason was logistics - they couldn't have the neighbors seeing/hearing their car leave and come back a few hours later.

If you're RDI then you have to believe the Rs did these horrible things to JBR. It's hard to see why they'd be squeamish about dumping the body.

 

[Abrego]

If you're RDI then you have to believe the Rs did these horrible things to JBR. It's hard to see why they'd be squeamish about dumping the body.

Chrishope, you point out one of the psychologically interesting things about this case for me. Why did JB have her favorite blanket covering (or laid near?) her body? And the ransom note mentioned denying the body for a proper burial. There's concern for her body. It's sick, but it makes sense to me that PR still had protective instincts. And it makes sense that PR thought her actions towards her daughter were somehow justified (JB's HER daughter), but dumping the body for a stranger to harm is unthinkable. Otherwise, for me to believe PDI, I feel like I'd have to think she was a complete sociopath.

BTW, I've read Steve Thomas' book and I do tend to agree with his theory, with skepticism. The one event I'm convinced of is that Patsy wrote the ransom note.

 

[Abrego]

he needs to reinvent himself after marrying again? .

Thanks, that's a good point.

PDI looks fine, even the BPD thought along these lines, but the bugaboo is the evidence of chronic and acute sexual assault, how does PDI explain that away?

.

If I had to have an opinion on prior abuse, I'd agree with Steve Thomas (punishment inflicted by Patsy). But of course, I don't really know.

 

[Abrego]

Welcome to the forum!

As far as the ransom note, you are correct that it was addressed to JR only. But as you are new to the case, you may not be aware that there was a PRACTICE note found on that pad, which was addressed to " Mr. & Mrs. Ramsey". Patsy's sister admitted that Patsy wrote that, and claimed it was supposed to be the start of an invitation to a party. Right.
You will find a lot of information here: http://www.acandyrose.com Be sure to scroll down to the JonBenet Archives. There is tons of info there, including police interviews with the parents, crime photos of the house and the autopsy report. It is where I started my research on this case before I joined. I also recommend reading any of the books recommended on that site as well.

Thanks DeeDee249. I didn't know what the practice note said. I've been on acandyrose, but obviously have a lot to learn!

 

[sandover]

Where and when do people speculate that PR disposed of the various materials used in the crime that were never found?

 

[UKGuy]

Thanks, that's a good point.



If I had to have an opinion on prior abuse, I'd agree with Steve Thomas (punishment inflicted by Patsy). But of course, I don't really know.

Abrego,
The acute assault was sexual, not any form of punishment, it was also hidden from view, whilst her staged asphyxiation device was not ...

With JonBenet also being unnaturally enlarged internally this points towards chronic sexual abuse not any form of corporal punishment.

I reckon Steve Thomas was dancing around the Litigation Pole when he proposed his theory. Same when they term the abuse as genital trauma. It keeps the lawyers happy.

If its really PDI then Patsy was a fully developed psychopathic pedophile. Patsy apparently had no problem tightening the garrote around JonBenet's neck?


.

 

[UKGuy]

Where and when do people speculate that PR disposed of the various materials used in the crime that were never found?

sandover,
The golf-bag situated at the entrance to the basement.







.

 

[BOESP]

Where and when do people speculate that PR disposed of the various materials used in the crime that were never found?

There seemed to be some speculation in the beginning that evidence could have been discarded in a drain or covered sewer/manhole supposedly somewhere along the street out front. The golf bag, as already mentioned is a good possibility, as are Patsy's purse and pockets. To my knowledge, she nor Mr. Ramsey were physically searched before leaving the home (see the major books on this subject, e.g. Steve Thomas, Schiller, Death of Innocence by the Ramseys).

 

[DeeDee249]

There seemed to be some speculation in the beginning that evidence could have been discarded in a drain or covered sewer/manhole supposedly somewhere along the street out front. The golf bag, as already mentioned is a good possibility, as are Patsy's purse and pockets. To my knowledge, she nor Mr. Ramsey were physically searched before leaving the home (see the major books on this subject, e.g. Steve Thomas, Schiller, Death of Innocence by the Ramseys).

You are correct-they were never searched. Nor was BR searched when HE left that morning, before she was found.
It must be presumed that BR had some sort of overnight bag with him, as did the parents, as they knew they were going to a friend's home, and the bags were not searched either. Let's not forget that JR asked Patsy's sister SPECIFICALLY for his golf bag, even though 1. it was December, and in Boulder it isn't golf weather, 2. though he was going to Atlanta for the funeral, golf should have been the last thing on his mind, and 3. the entire contents of the house was going to be packed up and shipped to Atlanta. Why couldn't his golf bag gone along?
The items were small, after all- a roll of tape (assuming it wasn't pulled off something else already in the home) and cord (assuming there was any left of that either- it could have been the remainder of what had been previously used for a common household purpose).
So there are lots of possibilities as to how the remaining items (if they existed) were snuck out of the house.

 

[UKGuy]

You are correct-they were never searched. Nor was BR searched when HE left that morning, before she was found.
It must be presumed that BR had some sort of overnight bag with him, as did the parents, as they knew they were going to a friend's home, and the bags were not searched either. Let's not forget that JR asked Patsy's sister SPECIFICALLY for his golf bag, even though 1. it was December, and in Boulder it isn't golf weather, 2. though he was going to Atlanta for the funeral, golf should have been the last thing on his mind, and 3. the entire contents of the house was going to be packed up and shipped to Atlanta. Why couldn't his golf bag gone along?
The items were small, after all- a roll of tape (assuming it wasn't pulled off something else already in the home) and cord (assuming there was any left of that either- it could have been the remainder of what had been previously used for a common household purpose).
So there are lots of possibilities as to how the remaining items (if they existed) were snuck out of the house.

DeeDee249,
Excellent points. No searches must mean they were cleared from above, nobody should leave a homicide crime-scene without being searched and interviewed. With Pamela Paugh turning up later to conduct some kind of removal service just reinforces my opinion that the R's had already phoned someone for assistance?

 

[Stef88]

Do you guys think that if RDI that the murder was premeditated? One problem I found with the police finding the purchase of duct tape and rope as evidence is I find it hard to believe that the parents would have planned the murder. I always thought if RDI it would have been an accident.

 

[myzzy]

I always seem to return to this case as it twists and turns keeps the "not knowing" too irresitable to not think about.


From what I believe happened is that a accident in that house happened and because of the grand jury and BR not publicly talkingm i think the death of JBR was caused by her brother. ( Can only assume it was BR as he was the only other person in that house besides the parents)

I do not want to believe ( maybe my heart wont let me believe) that it happened for because of "evil" deeds. Parents would do anything to protect their children its natural. And even the Ramseys did the natural thing and that was to protect BR

Now, their actions following the death of JBR is something that we are having a hard time speculating WHY it needed covering up in that fashion. I think for all accounts the Ramseys lived a typical upscale lifestyle, that not many of us lived. Its very possible PRs bizzaar choices and yuppy lifestyle was very normal, as i think of ( Gone with the wind, southern, proper, curt ) when i think of PR.

I believe that the Grand Jury heard that BR had accidently caused JBR death, and a boy being a boy maybe went to poking and proding, then woke his parents to tell them JBR was hurt and covermode went into progress.

I do not think we will ever know what really happened as the law and the Ramseys will do eveything they can to protect a young boy and the actions of their parents to cover up.

I do not think PR or JR hurt their daughter and did the wrong thing to help protect their family. Its been way to long for this public of a case to have gone upsolved, or even gone unchallenged sucessfully by anyone.

I do hope that IF someone did MURDER JBR and it was not a accident of sorts, that justice is brought to her soon as it been way to long for justice. But if the Ramseys had caused a accident resulting in a coverup to protect someone, I do pray it eventually is revealed so that her story can bring peace so so many people in the world that follow her case trying to put closure to it. We all feel for JBR as she is one of our own.

 

[sandover]

Slightly off-topic: I've noticed people on this board sometimes refer to statements Burke made to the police (that his sister was not asleep the night of the 25th when they got home, for example). Is there a handy place where Burke's interview with the police can be found?