A fresh look at all test results

[Kat]

I'm also curious about the hair with decomp in which neither KC nor Caylee could be ruled out as the source through mtDNA.

I vaguely remember an arguement put forth by an expert that said that mtDNA, can be found within the community at large (mtDNA detected outside of the maternal line that matches the maternal line) I'm not sure how to set the parameters for an internet search to find out how often this might occur. Any help or insight would be appreciated.

 

[Rumpole]

It's clear that it's not animal decomp. I went back and reread the forensic summary on this test. What concerns me is that although the scientist that conducted this test said in effect "that a portion of the total odor signature identified in the Florida vehicle trunk is consistent with a decompositional event that could be of human origin".

It is worded as could be.

Then the report summary goes on to say: "The results still do not rule out the remote possibility that an unusual variety of products or materials (not present at the time of vehicle discovery) may have had some contribution to the overall chemical signature"

Now I know it is my understanding that these are preliminary findings on tests. That, more than likely, we will find that more tests were run. We just don't have those results yet.

So thanks to Wudge answering some questions for me on another thread, it is my concern that although "my own interpretation" in what was summarized tells me one thing (KC killed her daughter Caylee, and Caylee's body was in that trunk), the interpretation of these results (if allowed into court as evidence) can be argued as to be not conclusive proof. S'all I'm trying to say

The wording was QUITE consistent with decomposition. Points to a human(not other animal) origin.
Results show: not pizza, not empty trunk, not actual garbage recovered.

So something was decomposing for 2/3 days. An alternative explanation would have to explain what that was, and how it got in and out of the trunk.

I would think that if the defence are going to suggest, say, an unusual combination of items in a garage bag, they will have to set up such a bag and collect comparable results. I could be wrong but I think they would be unable to do that - short of including the odd severed human limb in the kitchen-tidy bag?

 

[Whisperer]

Simplified conclusion:

Briefly, after reading, it looks as though there was a decomposing body in the trunk; that may have been in/on dirt first; The dirt may have contained lime sulfur; Gasoline may have been poured onto the carpet of the trunk at some point. and then degreasers and/or carbon tetrachloride (spot removers that contain chloroform) were used to clean carpet.

 

[VALee]

P2518- Findings as of 24th september

Preliminary forensics report #2 by Arpad Vass

....seven compounds are being used to draw conclusions about the possibility of a decompositional event.Decanal and trichloroethene were dropped from this list because they were only detected in trace amounts. these five compounds are:

Carbon disulfide:
~ appears very early in human decomposition (<100 ADD's)
~ appears in both aerobic and anaerobic decomposition.

Carbon tetrachloride:
~ appears very early in human decommposition (<100ADD's)
~ appears in both aerobic and anaerobic decomposition.
~ potentially a human specific marker(not seen in animal remains)

Chloroform:
~ appears very early inn human decomposition (<100ADD's)
~ primarily detected in deprived oxygen(anaerobic) decompositions
Dimethyl trisulfide:
~ appears very early in human decomposition.(<100ADD's)
~ appears inn both aerobic and anaerobic decomposition.
Dimethyl disulfide:
~ appears very early in human decomposition(<100ADD's)
~appears in both aerobic and anaerobic decomposition.

Note: ADD+ accumulated degree day (an accumulation of average daily temperatures)

This assumes that all the control samples contributed equally to the odor signature in the trunk (which is unlikely) and does not take into account that numerous compounds in the controls were detected in trace amounts and that some were potentially highly concentrated by the TST collection procedure.( for example, fluorinated compounds were detcted in the forensics unit garage, but were not detected in the florida vehicle trunk sample potentially indicating very little if any contribution of the garage air to the trunk signature).

TST's collected from the florida trunk were analyzed even though the trunk liner had been removed and the odor woulld not have been representative of what was originally present at the time of vehicle discovery. Even with the liner removed sulfur containing compounds such as carbon disufide ,carbon tetrachloride chloroform and dimethyl disulfide were still detctable in trace amounts. The trunk was the only location where all these types of compounds were detected.

Common fluorinated compounds usually associated with human decomposition were not dtected in the florida trunk sample. It is possible, although this has not been studied, that a three yr old may not have had sufficient time (many years) to ingest enough fluorinated compounds for them to be incorporated into tissue and then to appear in the decompositional breakdown of soft tissue and bone.
Additionally several of the identified compounds ar typically associated with anaerobic decomposition.while the actual significance of this is not known, it indicates that any type of decompositional event that might have been associated with the odor in the trunk of the car could have occurred under deprived oxygen conditions.

Thank you for taking the time to put this together. A couple of things jump out here...

:waitasec:

1. Indications of anaerobic decomp, so this means the body was wrapped while in the trunk. Definately explains why only 1 hair found, though it disappointing only 1 was. Curious to see what evidence comes forth about the binding and how it may tie to the A house and/or KC.

2. It is significant that these test results came out as they did, though as bolded in red above, the trunk liner had already been removed. That leads me to believe the air signature would have been even more pronounced if left in original condition, though I think where it is now is significant, and I hope significant enough for the prosecution.

3. In reference to the phrase bold and green above, wonder if further testing has been discovered/done on the flourinated compounds of young people as a result of this finding? Hope so as that could be a positive from this ordeal.

 

[Rumpole]

Thank you for taking the time to put this together. A couple of things jump out here...

:waitasec:

1. Indications of anaerobic decomp, so this means the body was wrapped while in the trunk. Definately explains why only 1 hair found, though it disappointing only 1 was. Curious to see what evidence comes forth about the binding and how it may tie to the A house and/or KC.

2. It is significant that these test results came out as they did, though as bolded in red above, the trunk liner had already been removed. That leads me to believe the air signature would have been even more pronounced if left in original condition, though I think where it is now is significant, and I hope significant enough for the prosecution.

3. In reference to the phrase bold and green above, wonder if further testing has been discovered/done on the flourinated compounds of young people as a result of this finding? Hope so as that could be a positive from this ordeal.

1. 4 of the 5 key indicator sustances they point to as evidence of decomposition are described as appearing in either aerobic or anaerobic conditions. Chloroform is the exeption but that is a topic in itself since there is an abundance of chloroformfrom sources other than decomposition.
A car trunk is not airtight to the outside world, nor the rest of the car interior. There may well have been lowered oxygen levels, but there were live flies in the trunk and they required oxygen to breath and survive.
2. what they were really testing was what fluids had soaked into the samples. They contained these samples and collected what was released. Just opening the trunk when the car first picked up completely altered any air sample. No way to ever sample the mixture that was in there at that point in time. The tests done showed the residues were still releasing the various compounds.
3. I think there is already a lot of research into absorption of fluorides. Still controversy over fluoridaton of water supply.

 

[VALee]

1. 4 of the 5 key indicator sustances they point to as evidence of decomposition are described as appearing in either aerobic or anaerobic conditions. Chloroform is the exeption but that is a topic in itself since there is an abundance of chloroformfrom sources other than decomposition.
A car trunk is not airtight to the outside world, nor the rest of the car interior. There may well have been lowered oxygen levels, but there were live flies in the trunk and they required oxygen to breath and survive.
2. what they were really testing was what fluids had soaked into the samples. They contained these samples and collected what was released. Just opening the trunk when the car first picked up completely altered any air sample. No way to ever sample the mixture that was in there at that point in time. The tests done showed the residues were still releasing the various compounds.
3. I think there is already a lot of research into absorption of fluorides. Still controversy over fluoridaton of water supply.

Thanks Hercule, love your posts! Here are some additional thoughts directly correlated to the above points:

1. I got hung up on a bound body because trunks are not airtight. Is it tight enough to generate what would be considered an anaerobic condition? Also, Chloroform associated with decomp tends to be more highly concentrated in anaerobic conditions is what I thought I read somewhere. I also think that had the body not been bound, the trunk would have been even more of a mess?

2. I assumed the trunk liner was the carpeting. If that was removed, and realizing it had a much greater absorption factor than other trunk elements beneath the trunk floor contents, that that too impacted the results. Maybe I need to better understand what they meant by the 'trunkliner' had been removed. Or are they saying the air coming off of the trunk liner was what was studied?

 

[Rumpole]

Thanks Hercule, love your posts! Here are some additional thoughts directly correlated to the above points:

1. I got hung up on a bound body because trunks are not airtight. Is it tight enough to generate what would be considered an anaerobic condition? Also, Chloroform associated with decomp tends to be more highly concentrated in anaerobic conditions is what I thought I read somewhere. I also think that had the body not been bound, the trunk would have been even more of a mess?

2. I assumed the trunk liner was the carpeting. If that was removed, and realizing it had a much greater absorption factor than other trunk elements beneath the trunk floor contents, that that too impacted the results. Maybe I need to better understand what they meant by the 'trunkliner' had been removed. Or are they saying the air coming off of the trunk liner was what was studied?

Thanks for the kind comment.
I don't have a problem with the whole aerobic thing. In a way it's a shame they used the words in the report. Several people seem to be worried. I would say we can all imagine the trunk conditions. Air a bit limited, but not so that a trapped person would suffocate. Suffice to say car trunks are "oxygen challenged" but flies have enough to breathe at least. My understanding is that the cocktail of chemicals found point to what is expected in first 2/3 days of decomp. Even if bagged there would be some initial oxygen early on, but perhaps limited after a short time depending on how well the bag sealed.
I don't have the details of "liner" but I imagine just synthetic carpet. They bagged samples and left to release gases for several days.

I think people may me suffering from OJ Derangement Syndrome (OJDS)?
That is: Uncontrollable fear that perfectly good scientific evidence will be minutely picked at and refuted resulting in a murderer being acquitted. If de trunk smells like $hit ya gota acquit? That won&#8217;t happen again surely?

 

[Rumpole]

Perhaps some confusion?
The process of the body decomposing whether bagged or not is a separate issue to the bagging of samples to collect gases released. For the tests they are not measuring ongoing decomposition, they are collecting the chemicals already soaked into samples.

 

[sometimer]

Saying that the bacteria was anaerobic would not seem to indicate that the body was in an airtight place. The decomposition starts inside the body. Thus being anaerobic. It continues to grow and produce gases until it is exposed to air. That bacteria then dies off and is replaced by aerobic bacteria which grows and produces different gases. If the body had been there longer than the 2.6 days the anaerobic bacteria from inside of the body would have continued to grow and produce more gases.
The part that leaked out before the body was removed became aerobic, so now started to produce different gases. This says to me that when the body was removed from the trunk it had only been dead for 2.6 days. So all theories about date of death and disposal of the body would need to fall within the 2.6 days.

 

[Rumpole]

Saying that the bacteria was anaerobic would not seem to indicate that the body was in an airtight place. The decomposition starts inside the body. Thus being anaerobic. It continues to grow and produce gases until it is exposed to air. That bacteria then dies off and is replaced by aerobic bacteria which grows and produces different gases. If the body had been there longer than the 2.6 days the anaerobic bacteria from inside of the body would have continued to grow and produce more gases.
The part that leaked out before the body was removed became aerobic, so now started to produce different gases. This says to me that when the body was removed from the trunk it had only been dead for 2.6 days. So all theories about date of death and disposal of the body would need to fall within the 2.6 days.

Good points.
Do you think that placing the body in sealed double plastic bags after 2.6 days would constitute removing it from the trunk as far as decomposition products released into the trunk was concerned? Even though the sealed bags/body ensemble was returned to the trunk?

 

[DotsEyes]

Hercule - as in Caylee was in the trunk for 2.6 days, removed and wrapped in 2 plastic bags and then returned to the trunk for X number of days until disposal?

Excellent point.

 

[Emma Peel]

REPLY TO EMMA PEEL

(snipped)

I am sure there is lots more exciting science to come.

After learning that the Anthony clean-up squad had been over the car for hours, I was pleased LE got as much as they did.

Hercule - Thanks for your hopeful thoughts on my old post!

I'll just note that my post was made just 5-6 hours before they found Caylee's remains. (I simply could not sleep that night - fretting about the lack of forensics, thinking of poor Caylee, wondering if she'd ever be found, pleading with the universe for more evidence - still, I found posting my concerns not cathartic whatsoever.) BUT ... 5 hours later...I woke up to such sweet relief!

Since that day (12/11), I've felt somewhat better regarding the available forensics and how they might indeed support the argument that Caylee's body was in Casey's car, before it was in the woods. (Hey, hasn't everyone felt better?!!)

I still worry that there is but one hair. But now, it's more difficult to say that the one death-banded hair in the car, and related decomp, could have come from anyone other than our poor dead Caylee.

And, I agree, much more exciting science to come! Can hardly wait for more reports to be released! :Justice:

 

[Baxter]

Maybe more "hairs" will show up, once they take apart all of the Anthony's vacuum cleaners.

 

[Psmith]

Hercule - Thanks for your hopeful thoughts on my old post!

I'll just note that my post was made just 5-6 hours before they found Caylee's remains. (I simply could not sleep that night - fretting about the lack of forensics, thinking of poor Caylee, wondering if she'd ever be found, pleading with the universe for more evidence - still, I found posting my concerns not cathartic whatsoever.) BUT ... 5 hours later...I woke up to such sweet relief!

Since that day (12/11), I've felt somewhat better regarding the available forensics and how they might indeed support the argument that Caylee's body was in Casey's car, before it was in the woods. (Hey, hasn't everyone felt better?!!)

I still worry that there is but one hair. But now, it's more difficult to say that the one death-banded hair in the car, and related decomp, could have come from anyone other than our poor dead Caylee.

And, I agree, much more exciting science to come! Can hardly wait for more reports to be released! :Justice:

____________________________


Hello, Emma Peel. Lol! Been wondering if we would ever meet. Who is going to tell Steed? I am sticking by my story.....*rapidly starts to invent*

With all the doubling in this case it would make sense that there are two of us on the case. Doubling examples: many people named Anthony or variations (lost count of Tonys), at least 2 Jesses (LP's middle or first name is Jesse), 3 Padillas, all the people with initials CMA, 2 Lees (one a son, other g-grandfather), a Melich and a Belich, it goes on and on.

As usual, you are spot on with your analysis, and--even if I do say so myself--most clever. :crazy:

Lol.

 

[Rumpole]

Hercule - Thanks for your hopeful thoughts on my old post!

I'll just note that my post was made just 5-6 hours before they found Caylee's remains. (I simply could not sleep that night - fretting about the lack of forensics, thinking of poor Caylee, wondering if she'd ever be found, pleading with the universe for more evidence - still, I found posting my concerns not cathartic whatsoever.) BUT ... 5 hours later...I woke up to such sweet relief!

Since that day (12/11), I've felt somewhat better regarding the available forensics and how they might indeed support the argument that Caylee's body was in Casey's car, before it was in the woods. (Hey, hasn't everyone felt better?!!)

I still worry that there is but one hair. But now, it's more difficult to say that the one death-banded hair in the car, and related decomp, could have come from anyone other than our poor dead Caylee.

And, I agree, much more exciting science to come! Can hardly wait for more reports to be released! :Justice:

You're welcome.
My fault. I found this thread yesterday and started replying like billy-o before noticing the date. Mea Culpa. I think info still valid though.
Drawn to the name. I'll say no more in case you are working under cover?

 

[desertmom]

Wow - thanks for putting all of that information together. I had kind of forgotten just how much evidence there is. All of this along with the evidence that LE has and have not shared with us will make it very difficult for the defense to make a case for KC.

 

[Psmith]

Originally Posted by Emma Peel
Hercule - Thanks for your hopeful thoughts on my old post!

I'll just note that my post was made just 5-6 hours before they found Caylee's remains. (I simply could not sleep that night - fretting about the lack of forensics, thinking of poor Caylee, wondering if she'd ever be found, pleading with the universe for more evidence - still, I found posting my concerns not cathartic whatsoever.) BUT ... 5 hours later...I woke up to such sweet relief!

Since that day (12/11), I've felt somewhat better regarding the available forensics and how they might indeed support the argument that Caylee's body was in Casey's car, before it was in the woods. (Hey, hasn't everyone felt better?!!)

I still worry that there is but one hair. But now, it's more difficult to say that the one death-banded hair in the car, and related decomp, could have come from anyone other than our poor dead Caylee.

And, I agree, much more exciting science to come! Can hardly wait for more reports to be released!

You're welcome.
My fault. I found this thread yesterday and started replying like billy-o before noticing the date. Mea Culpa. I think info still valid though.
Drawn to the name. I'll say no more in case you are working under cover?

____________________________


Please allow me to step in, Emma Peel, just as I would do for myself as Mrs. Peel, hahahahha, in a polite, but firm way, even though I do not know how to put two different poster's quotes together. :crazy: Allowed? Merci, madame.

Monsieur Poirot, je vous ne connait pas. Peut-etre vous cherchez une autre dame? Mme. Emma a un avatar tres bon et elle a beaucoup de savoir d'affaire et science. Moi? Je suis complete et simple fou, n'est-ce pas? Les images blanc et noire. Mais je suis aussi une professeure de belle-lettres, en Anglais, epoque medieval. Frigtarde, sans doute. La difference enorme. Alors. Bien!

Qu'est que c'est nous le pouvions ici avec les nommes similaires?

Cheers.

A bit rusty, non? Aidez-moi les Canadiens et Francophiles!

 

[RR0004]

Originally Posted by Emma Peel
Hercule - Thanks for your hopeful thoughts on my old post!

I'll just note that my post was made just 5-6 hours before they found Caylee's remains. (I simply could not sleep that night - fretting about the lack of forensics, thinking of poor Caylee, wondering if she'd ever be found, pleading with the universe for more evidence - still, I found posting my concerns not cathartic whatsoever.) BUT ... 5 hours later...I woke up to such sweet relief!

Since that day (12/11), I've felt somewhat better regarding the available forensics and how they might indeed support the argument that Caylee's body was in Casey's car, before it was in the woods. (Hey, hasn't everyone felt better?!!)

I still worry that there is but one hair. But now, it's more difficult to say that the one death-banded hair in the car, and related decomp, could have come from anyone other than our poor dead Caylee.

And, I agree, much more exciting science to come! Can hardly wait for more reports to be released!




____________________________


Please allow me to step in, Emma Peel, just as I would do for myself, in a polite, but firm way, even though I do not know how to put two different poster's quotes together. :crazy: Allowed? Merci, Mlle.

Monsieur Poirot, Je vous ne connait pas! Peut-etre vous cherchez une autre dame? Mlle Emma c'est tres belle et elle a beaucoup des sciences. Moi? Je suis complete et simple fou, n'est-ce pas? Mais je suis aussi une professeure des lettres, en Anglais, de la coutume medieval. Frigtarde, sans doute. Hah? Alors. Bien!

Qu'est que c'est nous le pouvions ici avec les nommes similaires?

Cheers.

A bit rusty, non? Aidez-moi les Canadiens et Francophiles!

As if this case wasn't difficult enough to follow...LOL.

Also, let's not forget, we have not seen an entomological report or analysis of the basketball-size stain.

 

[Irish_Eyes]

mDNA is quite accurate, and it would be very hard for Baez to dispute the mDNA results....but I can give you a good guess what his defense will be on this line of inquiry...first a little background on mDNA for those who don't know much about it...I've studied it quite a bit because it can be a useful genealogical tool....I however am not a scientist so bear with my layman's explanation...mDNA sequences are expressed on the X chromosome...which means we all get it from our mothers as we are either girls (XX) or boys (XY)...what scientists have found is that mDNA mutations are rare events that tend to occur many generations apart...so in all likelihood, Caylee and Casey have the exact same mDNA, as would Cindy....as would Shirley Plesea, Cindy's mother...you get where I'm going with this?? Baez can argue that hair belonged to any of them...LE maintains that the deathband indicates it can only belong to Caylee as she is the only one of them who is deceased...then they will try to argue there is no deathband, or something...Lee too would have the same mDNA....yet the report indicates the hair could only have come from Casey or Caylee...Baez will use that info to question the credibility of the professional analysis...

 

[Psmith]

Hercule - Thanks for your hopeful thoughts on my old post!

I'll just note that my post was made just 5-6 hours before they found Caylee's remains. (I simply could not sleep that night - fretting about the lack of forensics, thinking of poor Caylee, wondering if she'd ever be found, pleading with the universe for more evidence - still, I found posting my concerns not cathartic whatsoever.) BUT ... 5 hours later...I woke up to such sweet relief!

Since that day (12/11), I've felt somewhat better regarding the available forensics and how they might indeed support the argument that Caylee's body was in Casey's car, before it was in the woods. (Hey, hasn't everyone felt better?!!)

I still worry that there is but one hair. But now, it's more difficult to say that the one death-banded hair in the car, and related decomp, could have come from anyone other than our poor dead Caylee.

And, I agree, much more exciting science to come! Can hardly wait for more reports to be released! :Justice:

mDNA is quite accurate, and it would be very hard for Baez to dispute the mDNA results....but I can give you a good guess what his defense will be on this line of inquiry...first a little background on mDNA for those who don't know much about it...I've studied it quite a bit because it can be a useful genealogical tool....I however am not a scientist so bear with my layman's explanation...mDNA sequences are expressed on the X chromosome...which means we all get it from our mothers as we are either girls (XX) or boys (XY)...what scientists have found is that mDNA mutations are rare events that tend to occur many generations apart...so in all likelihood, Caylee and Casey have the exact same mDNA, as would Cindy....as would Shirley Plesea, Cindy's mother...you get where I'm going with this?? Baez can argue that hair belonged to any of them...LE maintains that the deathband indicates it can only belong to Caylee as she is the only one of them who is deceased...then they will try to argue there is no deathband, or something...Lee too would have the same mDNA....yet the report indicates the hair could only have come from Casey or Caylee...Baez will use that info to question the credibility of the professional analysis...

___________

His excellence, JB, will be wasting his time with mtDNA. This may also be an area fraught with danger since questioning DNA also allows prosecution to ask a question they might already know the answer to, regarding paternity. JB, most esteemed, better not go there. He should say defense stipulates, ie, agrees with medical examiner (expert findings) per id, it is the little girl (I know, arrgh).