A Variation on a Rage Theory

[UKGuy]

And ....

evidence shows JonBenet was at least partially bathed recently (like the night of her death) and there probably was evidence in the bathroom connected to the cleaning and/or death and Patsy doesn't want to be connected to any of that evidence and how it got into JonBenet's bathroom where JonBenet was likely wiped down or bathed (partially or fully bathed ... have no idea which).

That's my guess as to why it's important for Patsy not to remember when JonBenet bathed.

BOESP,

evidence shows JonBenet was at least partially bathed recently (like the night of her death)

What evidence, do you have a source?

there probably was evidence in the bathroom connected to the cleaning

What cleaning, do you have a source for this?


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[Tober]

Steve Thomas in his book suggests that JonBenet may have been the recipient of corporal punishment as a consequence of either bedwetting or bed-soiling, and that this may have caused her chronic vaginal trauma?

The above theory is inconsistent with the available forensic evidence.

If Patsy was subjecting JonBenet to "toilet rage punishment," due to frustration with JonBenet's toileting issues, then that would certainly account for why Patsy staged the crime instead of seeking medical help for JonBenet.

 

[UKGuy]

If Patsy was subjecting JonBenet to "toilet rage punishment," due to frustration with JonBenet's toileting issues, then that would certainly account for why Patsy staged the crime instead of seeking medical help for JonBenet.

Tober,

Sure this is a possibility, if you think Patsy staged the crime-scene, then you have to explain why she left JonBenet wearing urine-soaked longjohns, and there is no evidence of fecal soiling on any of her clothing, or on her body.

That is staging a crime-scene is normally intending to confuse and deflect attention away from the offender and offer an alternative theory for the fake crime.

Leaving JonBenet wearing urine-soaked longjohns contradicts this assumption.

Thats before we speculate on her size-12's and sexual assault which was cleaned up then hidden from view?

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[BOESP]

BOESP,


What evidence, do you have a source?

What cleaning, do you have a source for this?

She was washed down and blue fibers were left on her. Apparently, this was to wash away blood (originally thought to be semen). You might want to check www.acandyrose.com but I believe I read it in Steve Thomas's book.

Cleaning, as in cleaning to remove blood at her thighs. Again, Steve Thomas's book mentions the bathroom and activities in the bathroom. Plus one of the warrants lists items taken from the bathroom.
Sorry, I don't remember which warrant.

There were even some interviews that mentioned JonBenet's underwear was kept in JonBenet's bathroom. I believe Patsy said that and I believe Patsy said she had no idea how the over-sized panties got on JonBenet. Again, someone had to have taken the panties out of the bathroom since Patsy said that's where the panties were kept.

By the way, I was answering a speculative question posed to anyone having an idea as to why Patsy might not admit knowing when JonBenet was bathed. So those are speculative answers, not statements of fact. Sorry I didn't make that more obvious. The evidence of being wiped down (clean) comes from a variety of sources available to the public and the warrants are on www.acandyrose.com.

 

[DeeDee249]

As I read the report, JBR's thighs and genital area were WIPED down, not washed down. I small point, but there is a difference. The WIPING likely occured to clean away blood, and dark blue fibers linked to JR's shirt found on her genital area/panty crotch point to this as what was used to wipe her down. That happened at the time of the assault. That would be different than WASHING her down, which in my mind involves water, either on a washcloth or meaning she was taken to an area where water was available- like the sink in the basement, or was done at one of the upstairs bathrooms.
I don't recall seeing it stated that she was washed down, only that she was wiped down.
There was also fecal matter in a pair of pants (not sure if there were panties also) on the floor of either her bathroom or bedroom, that was seen in a crime scene photo shown to PR. When asked about it, PR said that JBR often didn't wipe herself properly after a bowel movement. My impression is that they were much more than staining. That her pants had actual fecal matter that indicated soiling/loss of control, and not merely improper wiping.

 

[BOESP]

I don't recall seeing it stated that she was washed down, only that she was wiped down.
There was also fecal matter in a pair of pants (not sure if there were panties also) on the floor of either her bathroom or bedroom, that was seen in a crime scene photo shown to PR. When asked about it, PR said that JBR often didn't wipe herself properly after a bowel movement. My impression is that they were much more than staining. That her pants had actual fecal matter that indicated soiling/loss of control, and not merely improper wiping.

DeeDee, I see where you're coming from on the soiling and I agree with you about that. I'm not trying to pick an argument so hope you know that! I was only offering a suggestion to the question asked about what reason would Patsy have for not remembering the last time JonBenet bathed.

In my mind, if my child has blood on her or fecal matter, I'm going to wipe her down with water and soap, so I guess I should have been clearer about that. I would call that "bathing" but I guess not everyone would use that phrase.

There just seemed to be a lot of statements in Thomas's book, in the interviews, and items listed on the warrant(s) that indicated some type of "cleaning" was done to JonBenet the night-morning she died. So, if true, it would have been in Patsy's best interest to deny that she could even remember the last time JonBenet bathed or was cleaned. If she told detectives that she remembered cleaning JonBenet before bedtime or at a midnight "potty break" then it might have put Patsy at the scene of the crime (so to speak - I really have no idea where the crime was committed but Thomas's book and the warrants seem to suggest something happened in JonBenet's bathroom).

 

[coloradokares]

As I read the report, JBR's thighs and genital area were WIPED down, not washed down. I small point, but there is a difference. The WIPING likely occured to clean away blood, and dark blue fibers linked to JR's shirt found on her genital area/panty crotch point to this as what was used to wipe her down. That happened at the time of the assault. That would be different than WASHING her down, which in my mind involves water, either on a washcloth or meaning she was taken to an area where water was available- like the sink in the basement, or was done at one of the upstairs bathrooms.
I don't recall seeing it stated that she was washed down, only that she was wiped down.
There was also fecal matter in a pair of pants (not sure if there were panties also) on the floor of either her bathroom or bedroom, that was seen in a crime scene photo shown to PR. When asked about it, PR said where Oon benethat JBR often didn't wipe herself properly after a bowel movement. My impression is that they were much more than staining. That her pants had actual fecal matter that indicated soiling/loss of control, and not merely improper wiping.

According to the sex abuse officer called in she found drawers full of soiled undies in Jon Benets drawers where shed iidden them. This is i a major red flag I can send the interview with Julie Haden and this abuse officer if so requested. I have sent it in so many times I am trying not to be redundant

 

[BOESP]

According to the sex abuse officer called in she found drawers full of soiled undies in Jon Benets drawers where shed iidden them. This is i a major red flag I can send the interview with Julie Haden and this abuse officer if so requested. I have sent it in so many times I am trying not to be redundant

I don't think I've read that piece of information. I'd be happy to have a copy. It's okay to PM it to me, if that's what you mean. TIA!

 

[JMO8778]

According to the sex abuse officer called in she found drawers full of soiled undies in Jon Benets drawers where shed iidden them. This is i a major red flag I can send the interview with Julie Haden and this abuse officer if so requested. I have sent it in so many times I am trying not to be redundant

they were kept in the drawer anyway,right? so I'm just wondering how that was hidden,not disagreeing with you at all,but were they in a different drawer from where they were normally kept,or pushed to the back and hidden under other clothes?why hide them anyway,why not just throw them out?

 

[UKGuy]

She was washed down and blue fibers were left on her. Apparently, this was to wash away blood (originally thought to be semen). You might want to check www.acandyrose.com but I believe I read it in Steve Thomas's book.

Cleaning, as in cleaning to remove blood at her thighs. Again, Steve Thomas's book mentions the bathroom and activities in the bathroom. Plus one of the warrants lists items taken from the bathroom.
Sorry, I don't remember which warrant.

There were even some interviews that mentioned JonBenet's underwear was kept in JonBenet's bathroom. I believe Patsy said that and I believe Patsy said she had no idea how the over-sized panties got on JonBenet. Again, someone had to have taken the panties out of the bathroom since Patsy said that's where the panties were kept.

By the way, I was answering a speculative question posed to anyone having an idea as to why Patsy might not admit knowing when JonBenet was bathed. So those are speculative answers, not statements of fact. Sorry I didn't make that more obvious. The evidence of being wiped down (clean) comes from a variety of sources available to the public and the warrants are on www.acandyrose.com.

BOESP,
The extent to which JonBenet was cleaned up is an unanswered question.

There were even some interviews that mentioned JonBenet's underwear was kept in JonBenet's bathroom. I believe Patsy said that and I believe Patsy said she had no idea how the over-sized panties got on JonBenet. Again, someone had to have taken the panties out of the bathroom since Patsy said that's where the panties were kept.

The underwear topic is complex and riddled with inconsistencies. e.g. The size-12's were allegedly stored in JonBenet's dresser in her bedroom, and these were not handed in to the police until years later after they were discovered in a packing crate? The police removed all of JonBenet's underwear from her bathroom drawer and none were recorded as being of size-12!


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[UKGuy]

they were kept in the drawer anyway,right? so I'm just wondering how that was hidden,not disagreeing with you at all,but were they in a different drawer from where they were normally kept,or pushed to the back and hidden under other clothes?why hide them anyway,why not just throw them out?

JMO8778,

The soiled underwear were kept in her bathroom drawer, what is less stressed is whether they were all washed out or not, and if it was only residual staining?

Either way for the investigating officer, soiled underwear was a sexual abuse red flag, particularly in the context of JonBenet's chronic vaginal trauma.


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[Nuisanceposter]

The underwear topic is complex and riddled with inconsistencies. e.g. The size-12's were allegedly stored in JonBenet's dresser in her bedroom, and these were not handed in to the police until years later after they were discovered in a packing crate? The police removed all of JonBenet's underwear from her bathroom drawer and none were recorded as being of size-12!


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Exactly, UKGuy. I doubt the package of size 12/14s were ever in JonBenet's drawer at all - they certainly weren't there when police went through her underwear drawers and found nothing but size 4/6s with soil stains in them. Almost every single pair had soil stains in them, so it had to be a frequent and ongoing occurrence that JB had skid marks in her undies. Nedra Paugh called it dirtying, and said JB needed an adult to wash her bottom to get it clean enough. Definite indication of sexual abuse, along with the daytime and nighttime wetting.

 

[coloradokares]

they were kept in the drawer anyway,right? so I'm just wondering how that was hidden,not disagreeing with you at all,but were they in a different drawer from where they were normally kept,or pushed to the back and hidden under other clothes?why hide them anyway,why not just throw them out?

<DIV id=common_center_middle>JonBenet Investigator Talks Exclusively to Fox 31 News Last Edited: Monday, 13 Nov 2006, 9:47 PM MSTCreated: Monday, 13 Nov 2006, 9:29 PM MST

JonBenet RamseyDENVER --
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The tenth anniversary of the murder of JonBenet Ramsey is rapidly approaching. The whirlwind surrounding the arrest and release of John Mark Karr shows it's a mystery that continues to capture the nation’s attention.

 

[JMO8778]

<DIV id=common_center_middle>JonBenet Investigator Talks Exclusively to Fox 31 News Last Edited: Monday, 13 Nov 2006, 9:47 PM MSTCreated: Monday, 13 Nov 2006, 9:29 PM MST

JonBenet RamseyDENVER --
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The tenth anniversary of the murder of JonBenet Ramsey is rapidly approaching. The whirlwind surrounding the arrest and release of John Mark Karr shows it's a mystery that continues to capture the nation’s attention.

thx,that went to just a photo of JB though,and not the story itself.

 

[UKGuy]

Exactly, UKGuy. I doubt the package of size 12/14s were ever in JonBenet's drawer at all - they certainly weren't there when police went through her underwear drawers and found nothing but size 4/6s with soil stains in them. Almost every single pair had soil stains in them, so it had to be a frequent and ongoing occurrence that JB had skid marks in her undies. Nedra Paugh called it dirtying, and said JB needed an adult to wash her bottom to get it clean enough. Definite indication of sexual abuse, along with the daytime and nighttime wetting.

Nuisanceposter,

I doubt the package of size 12/14s were ever in JonBenet's drawer at all

I agree, although the decision to return the discovered pairs of size-12's is curious.

Another aspect less evident is that if the majority of JonBenet's size-6's were soiled as is being suggested, then this must include the set of seven purchased at Bloomingdales, since these were placed into her underwear drawer.

So does this suggest a timeline for that soiling?

Patsy Ramsey is on record stating that regardless of whether JonBenet bathed or not she would have changed her underwear on Xmas-day, so did JonBenet wear the Wednesday pair of size-6's on Xmas-day?

Patsy is also on record as stating that JonBenet never bothered much with specific day-of-the-week underwear, so why was it important that JonBenet be redressed in size-12 underwear and not a pair from her bathroom drawer, or was the size-12 pair the only ones with Wednesday stamped onto them?

Just consider if JonBenet had been redressed in any other pair of size-6 underwear would we have even registered it, or was this discounted specifically because they were soiled and the size-12's were not?

And of course the soiled underwear left lying on the bathroom floor is another inconsistency in the PDI Toilet Rage theory.

e.g. urine-soaked longjohns and soiled underwear, along with clean size-12's does not fit in with a Toilet Rage theory.


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[DeeDee249]

The underwear situation is truly baffling. I find it hard to believe that the panties in the drawer had actual fecal matter on them, simply because of the odor. Not to be gross, but nearly everyone has had experience with stepping in dog "poo". You get a tiny bit on your shoe and you KNOW it. Now, it's true the R home was a pretty untidy one, and PR had a housekeeper who likely put away laundry. But someone would have smelled/noticed fecal matter on panties stuffed in a drawer. And even if JBR had hidden them, the odor would give them away.
Because of this, I think the soiled panties have staining that remained after laundering. Still, it's plenty of evidence of an ongoing soiling problem.
Now the soiled panties/pants left on the floor may have been another matter. It's inferred that they had actual fecal matter in them. Unfortunately, it's impossible to "date" them. If all the panties are stained, it indicates only that the soiling occurred for as long as she owned those panties. It doesn't even indicate that the soiling took place during the time she wore a specific size, because we don't know how many panties were thrown away.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee, I see where you're coming from on the soiling and I agree with you about that. I'm not trying to pick an argument so hope you know that! I was only offering a suggestion to the question asked about what reason would Patsy have for not remembering the last time JonBenet bathed.

In my mind, if my child has blood on her or fecal matter, I'm going to wipe her down with water and soap, so I guess I should have been clearer about that. I would call that "bathing" but I guess not everyone would use that phrase.

There just seemed to be a lot of statements in Thomas's book, in the interviews, and items listed on the warrant(s) that indicated some type of "cleaning" was done to JonBenet the night-morning she died. So, if true, it would have been in Patsy's best interest to deny that she could even remember the last time JonBenet bathed or was cleaned. If she told detectives that she remembered cleaning JonBenet before bedtime or at a midnight "potty break" then it might have put Patsy at the scene of the crime (so to speak - I really have no idea where the crime was committed but Thomas's book and the warrants seem to suggest something happened in JonBenet's bathroom).

Don't worry- I'd never think you were trying to pick a fight with me. We all have different opinions and we all take different meanings from things. There'd be no need for a discussion group if we all thought the same thing!

 

[UKGuy]

The underwear situation is truly baffling. I find it hard to believe that the panties in the drawer had actual fecal matter on them, simply because of the odor. Not to be gross, but nearly everyone has had experience with stepping in dog "poo". You get a tiny bit on your shoe and you KNOW it. Now, it's true the R home was a pretty untidy one, and PR had a housekeeper who likely put away laundry. But someone would have smelled/noticed fecal matter on panties stuffed in a drawer. And even if JBR had hidden them, the odor would give them away.
Because of this, I think the soiled panties have staining that remained after laundering. Still, it's plenty of evidence of an ongoing soiling problem.
Now the soiled panties/pants left on the floor may have been another matter. It's inferred that they had actual fecal matter in them. Unfortunately, it's impossible to "date" them. If all the panties are stained, it indicates only that the soiling occurred for as long as she owned those panties. It doesn't even indicate that the soiling took place during the time she wore a specific size, because we don't know how many panties were thrown away.

DeeDee249,
They were probably still stained after being laundered, its not impossible to date the pants on the bathroom floor since either LHP, Patsy could suggest a date that they were not there?

If all the panties are stained, it indicates only that the soiling occurred for as long as she owned those panties. It doesn't even indicate that the soiling took place during the time she wore a specific size, because we don't know how many panties were thrown away

We know the date upon which the bloomingdales were purchased, but was there any soiling in the size-12's and does this indicate when they were placed upon JonBenet?


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[Nehemiah]

According to the sex abuse officer called in she found drawers full of soiled undies in Jon Benets drawers where shed iidden them. This is i a major red flag I can send the interview with Julie Haden and this abuse officer if so requested. I have sent it in so many times I am trying not to be redundant

Please send it to me, also. Thanks, Nehemiah