Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #175

[mrjitty]

Couple things I’ve seen discussed and wanted to throw my .02 in:
I believe RA told Dulin he was at the trails between 130-330. I believe this was done causally when the girls were still missing.
I do not believe it was recorded for this reason. I am sure RA is aware of that.

RA then adapted his timeline to 12-130 during his October 22 interview.
He did this because he was trying to create a time discrepancy between his presence and BG’s presence/girls arrival. Adaption is a tactic used by guilty.
Many people came forward that were on and around the trails that day. This one changed his timeline.

Lastly. From the motions filed it appears that RA did NOT had access to discovery when he made his 5 confessions in April 3.
It appears that his counsel dropped off materials for his review on March 24th but he still not received those documents when they returned after his confessions and erratic behavior on April 4.

I had always worried that his confessions could be discounted as false since he would have had access to discovery material (stuff only killer would know) but it doesn’t appear he had been given access to states evidence.

I am willing to bet their are further issues with the Oct '22 interview.

Like does his phone show up on the mast dump? One of the things I have been wondering about, is if his unknown number was in the dump, surely LE would have followed up on that number?

The lack of any mention of his phone data in the Franks feels quite significant to me.

 

[justtrish]

The Delphi case is arguably among the most high-profile murder cases in Indiana‘s history. I just cannot buy in to the idea that members of LE would jeopardize their careers, potentially put away an innocent man in jail for life, and protect a real murderer - all via a pinky-swear over a pile of Odin sticks.

jmo

I would think if this was going to happen it would have been early on also. They waited 5 years to find RA and then frame him AFTER knowing the media and half of America is watching? Seems to me the investigators ruled out an angle they looked into and the defense is now pouncing on it trying to make some other theory fit in an attempt to get their client off the hook.

 

[Salah11]

To be a fly on the wall to have seen RA’s reaction when he knew there was video and audio. I am wondering if testimony will be brought in around that time period with people he worked with or friends and his demeanour after the video release.


MOOOOO

 

[justtrish]

BBM

I think this is really important. One of the oddities of this case is the video is just completely priced in because it's been around for years. But for jurors it won't be so. I suspect you are correct, and especially I think he would not have realised the sensitivity of admitting to seeing the 3 juvenile girls, because at 1.30pm, nothing bad has happened yet. Especially Dulin himself won't have realised the importance of it.

This is also why his police interview is incriminating rather the exculpatory. By that time he realised the danger of arriving at 1.30pm

This is a good point I haven't thought of. Dulin likely didn't know many details at all at the time of his interview with RA. I would imagine the video and the content of that video was not being circulated through LE until the still was released on 2/15. So if RA talked to Dulin on 2/14 then it's very likely Dulin didn't know what BG looked like or what he was wearing or when he arrived, etc. I doubt he knew about the interview with the 3 girls that saw a man and so on. He just took this as a man who was walking that day and roughly when he was there and what he saw.. thinking this was a witness or possible witness, not thinking this is the killer coming willingly to tell me this info. I can see how easy it was to not connect any dots because Dulin didn't have any other dots at that point.

Edited to add: if the interview with RA was prior to about noon on 2/14, then the girls weren't even found yet so it wouldn't have been a murder investigation. it would have been 2 missing girls. I wish we knew when RA met with Dulin.

 

[Megnut]

I do not know about Richard Allen's guilt. I can understand the thinking surrounding him being guilty because of the PCA timeline and witness statements, but there are a lot of things that could pose reasonable doubt in this case.

You have a main witness who supposedly saw Richard Allen on platform 1 of the Monon High Bridge, but then gives a description of someone who is way younger. This became the April 2019 sketch released to the public. Then this same witness thinks that black Ford Focuses look like 1965 Mercury Comets NOT black in color parked at the old CPS building at 2:15pm on the day of the crime.

The strangest part of the case has to be Richard Allen himself. If Richard Allen went and spoke with Dulin, the conservation officer in 2017, did Dulin let Richard Allen know he was being recorded or was the recording done without Richard Allen's knowledge? If Richard Allen knew he had been recorded at that time, would he really change his story about when he arrived and left the Monon High Bridge area? How would Richard Allen know that Dulin would lose the recording if, as Richard Allen claims, he was there between 12pm to 1:30pm and not from 1:30pm to 3:30pm? Did Richard Allen's lawyers tell him Dulin lost the recording and therefore now they could get away with changing the timeline of when Richard Allen arrived and left from the Monon High Bridge area?

Wouldn't the police have re-asked this question about when he arrived and left the Monon High Bridge area during their interrogations with Richard Allen in October 2022? Wouldn't that still be recorded? I guess we will have to wait till trial to see all the evidence regarding the timeline of when Richard Allen arrived and left the Monon High Bridge trail area.

To me it doesn’t matter if the persons memory played tricks on what she remembered.

The fact remains he was placed on platform 1 and RA also confirmed he went out onto Platform 1.

So that’s a slam dunk as memory can be a tricky thing when remembering stuff like Age range and minor details.

It’s not like this witness went out there knowing he was about to comment 2 counts of murder.

MOO

Just speaking to the witness' testimony (platform/Comet), we only have the arrest warrant and FM to go by. The Prosecution has not revealed their case in chief nor anything that was developed through further investigation post arrest.

IIRC that witness was not in infrequent walker at MHB. Not daily but regularly maybe? Even if she's only been there twice in her life, it's possible that she conflate days and that further reflection or fresh information helped her sort her rememberings. If so, it's likely contained in the discovery and the defense didn't read that page, ignored that page, etc. We've seen it in other cases -- the Defense doesn't lie. They're just artfully deceptive.

All that being said, she saw the victims moving toward BG shortly after seeing him on the platform, the very platform he acknowledged being on. And within a very tight timeline.

It's stunning really. Eerie but stunning.

Timestamps from KG give a start time. The witness, her story checks out, probably easily cross-checked with her own phone. Then there's the video, timestamped. BG was on the bridge. BG had to have encountered A and L. RA placed himself on the bridge, on the platform. But lied about (not) seeing the girls.

I've said it before -- only one person would lie about that.

He's your guy.

JMO

 

[Willow Knight]

Today is my first chance to read the opinion.
I'm glad for the clarification on this matter:
[snip pg 13]
"To be sure, the Sixth Amendment’s right to effective counsel “imposes a baseline requirement of competence on whatever lawyer is chosen or appointed.” Gonzalez‐Lopez, 548 U.S. at 148. But there is no suggestion that Baldwin and Rozzi are out of their depth. Baldwin has over thirty years of experience representing thousands of clients around the state—including clients charged with murder, rape, robbery, burglary, and other violent offenses—and he has tried more than125 jury trials. Rozzi has over twenty years of the same experience, including three murder trials and a previous certification to handle death penalty cases."

https://public.courts.in.gov/Decisions/api/Document/Opinion?Id=TWpDY7S8sATqPWh50ta8w0N5f1k5NjXezrOt02MdSk7tzOjXnR6SVtncFrbE60HI0

Thank you for posting this. Haven't been able to read the opinion if full yet.

At one time I was concerned that RA would be able to have it both ways if he was found guilty by the jury.

1. Attorneys were DQ. Concerned RA could appeal because he was denied his effective counsel.
2. Attorneys not DQ. Concerned RA could appeal because even the judge state she felt D was poor representation.

Well now the SC has addressed the above by stating in detail that these attorneys are competent? BTW, has that speedy trial request been entered yet?

 

[Megnut]

IMO is important to remember that Dulin didn't know his tip had been misfiled and would be lost for years. He may well believed that it was read, investigated and eliminated.

Meanwhile, RA continued to live and move and have his being right in plain sight. I wonder if he didn't show up at press conferences in order to project fatherly concern -- concerned citizen. Attaching one photo grabbed from a sea of them. (Not seeing he is in the photo, using the photo as an example.) He could blend in in a room like that. Anyone who might see him and have a fleeting association would rule it out. The brain doesn't compute that! That a violent offended would show up in a room ringed by LE! His disguise -- looking like himself (and BG) and doing it in a public, obvious way. Precisely because you'd think the real perpetrator would hide, strink back.

If anyone wondered if RA was BG, how easy for him to deflect it. I went to the police the first day. If I was bridge guy, would I still be living here?

Even more ease-putting if he brings it up first.

It really is something that he didn't move away after a reasonable amount of time has passed.

Perhaps he got a secret thrill with the audaciousness of it all -- playing pool three feet away from his own postered likeness. Emboldened.

JMO

https://x.com/RichNye13/status/1120356680087363585?s=20

 

[Salah11]

IMO is important to remember that Dulin didn't know his tip had been misfiled and would be lost for years. He may well believed that it was read, investigated and eliminated.

Meanwhile, RA continued to live and move and have his being right in plain sight. I wonder if he didn't show up at press conferences in order to project fatherly concern -- concerned citizen. Attaching one photo grabbed from a sea of them. (Not seeing he is in the photo, using the photo as an example.) He could blend in in a room like that. Anyone who might see him and have a fleeting association would rule it out. The brain doesn't compute that! That a violent offended would show up in a room ringed by LE! His disguise -- looking like himself (and BG) and doing it in a public, obvious way. Precisely because you'd think the real perpetrator would hide, strink back.

If anyone wondered if RA was BG, how easy for him to deflect it. I went to the police the first day. If I was bridge guy, would I still be living here?

Even more ease-putting if he brings it up first.

It really is something that he didn't move away after a reasonable amount of time has passed.

Perhaps he got a secret thrill with the audaciousness of it all -- playing pool three feet away from his own postered likeness. Emboldened.

JMO

https://x.com/RichNye13/status/1120356680087363585?s=20

I thought that was RA in the red T-Shirt at first. It goes to show you why he blended in so well as So many of the men from this area have a very similar look about them and are completely unremarkable in appearance.

Moo

 

[justtrish]

IMO is important to remember that Dulin didn't know his tip had been misfiled and would be lost for years. He may well believed that it was read, investigated and eliminated.

Meanwhile, RA continued to live and move and have his being right in plain sight. I wonder if he didn't show up at press conferences in order to project fatherly concern -- concerned citizen. Attaching one photo grabbed from a sea of them. (Not seeing he is in the photo, using the photo as an example.) He could blend in in a room like that. Anyone who might see him and have a fleeting association would rule it out. The brain doesn't compute that! That a violent offended would show up in a room ringed by LE! His disguise -- looking like himself (and BG) and doing it in a public, obvious way. Precisely because you'd think the real perpetrator would hide, strink back.

If anyone wondered if RA was BG, how easy for him to deflect it. I went to the police the first day. If I was bridge guy, would I still be living here?

Even more ease-putting if he brings it up first.

It really is something that he didn't move away after a reasonable amount of time has passed.

Perhaps he got a secret thrill with the audaciousness of it all -- playing pool three feet away from his own postered likeness. Emboldened.

JMO

https://x.com/RichNye13/status/1120356680087363585?s=20

BBM. this is maybe the most disturbing part for me to grasp.. he lived there, worked there, and interacted with the family members of Abby and Libby. It really is just awful. Imagine them wondering all these years who this could be.. someone passing through, a serial killer, someone they met online and that person moved on to a new city/state, etc.. Did they ever wonder if it was the mailman, the clerk at the store, or someone they might have worked with? I think it's crazy he lived right there, worked right there.. I think he did get something out of that.. maybe that is why he didn't kill again after that.. he had a constant reliving of it because he was able to go unnoticed right there in town... he could walk that trail any time he wanted, go to the scene where he killed them, see their family members.. all while he hid in plain sight. Disturbing. This is all my opinion.

 

[FromGermany1]

IMO is important to remember that Dulin didn't know his tip had been misfiled and would be lost for years. He may well believed that it was read, investigated and eliminated.

Meanwhile, RA continued to live and move and have his being right in plain sight. I wonder if he didn't show up at press conferences in order to project fatherly concern -- concerned citizen. Attaching one photo grabbed from a sea of them. (Not seeing he is in the photo, using the photo as an example.) He could blend in in a room like that. Anyone who might see him and have a fleeting association would rule it out. The brain doesn't compute that! That a violent offended would show up in a room ringed by LE! His disguise -- looking like himself (and BG) and doing it in a public, obvious way. Precisely because you'd think the real perpetrator would hide, strink back.

If anyone wondered if RA was BG, how easy for him to deflect it. I went to the police the first day. If I was bridge guy, would I still be living here?

Even more ease-putting if he brings it up first.

It really is something that he didn't move away after a reasonable amount of time has passed.

Perhaps he got a secret thrill with the audaciousness of it all -- playing pool three feet away from his own postered likeness. Emboldened.

JMO

https://x.com/RichNye13/status/1120356680087363585?s=20

Does anyone see the "Odinists" or RA's wife in the room? There were some pics available, but I don't know, how to find them again.
When the pics were made public, we didn't know of all the people, who are now in the focus, starting with RA.

Then I would further be interested in the Delphi citizens, who participated in the secret meeting, which was called up in 2017 in a town hall. If I remember well, there was a gag order for all citizens. Were RA and KA two of them? Were Delphi "Odinists" present? Did the audience get important things to know, which would be unintentionally helpful for the killer (RA)?

 

[Megnut]

Does anyone see the "Odinists" or RA's wife in the room? There were some pics available, but I don't know, how to find them again.
When the pics were made public, we didn't know of all the people, who are now in the focus, starting with RA.

A quick Google of "Delphi+press+conference" pulls up a good assortment.

Innocent people IME can't help but ascribe their own thinking to how a suspect thinks. Therefore, innocent people often assume a suspect will act guilty, furtive. You might not expect him to engage cordially or show up at press conferences.

But here's the thing -- and I think any experiments testing witness recall would bear this out -- RA could have shown up at a press conference wearing the very same blue jacket with LE playing the video on a screen right there and all he have to do is volunteer, all friendly-like, "sure picked the wrong jacket to wear today". Call the attention to himself, dismiss the association. Jovial, light-hearted. It's the best disguise there is.

I won't be surprised if someone spots him in those town hall photos. With his wife for added measure. Great prop.

JMO

 

[photographer4]

I think the only place I've seen it was in the FM, from the attached exhibits.

View attachment 482420

Who is Betsy Carbaugh? Wasn't the witness SC? OR Betsy with some other surname that escapes me at present?

 

[photographer4]

To be a fly on the wall to have seen RA’s reaction when he knew there was video and audio. I am wondering if testimony will be brought in around that time period with people he worked with or friends and his demeanour after the video release.


MOOOOO

As character witnesses to speak to his mood etc at the time? Sure would be interesting! Is it permissable?

 

[TL4S]

Who is Betsy Carbaugh? Wasn't the witness SC? OR Betsy with some other surname that escapes me at present?

It's a mistake. As many have pointed out, there are quite a few mistakes in the FM, one of several reasons a lot of folks do not find any of it credible.

It should have been SC.

 

[Salah11]

As character witnesses to speak to his mood etc at the time? Sure would be interesting! Is it permissable?

No idea im afraid as i dont know much about the U.S legal system.

 

[photographer4]

Does anyone see the "Odinists" or RA's wife in the room? There were some pics available, but I don't know, how to find them again.
When the pics were made public, we didn't know of all the people, who are now in the focus, starting with RA.

Then I would further be interested in the Delphi citizens, who participated in the secret meeting, which was called up in 2017 in a town hall. If I remember well, there was a gag order for all citizens. Were RA and KA two of them? Were Delphi "Odinists" present? Did the audience get important things to know, which would be unintentionally helpful for the killer (RA)?

Was it a court ordered gag?

 

[photographer4]

A quick Google of "Delphi+press+conference" pulls up a good assortment.

Innocent people IME can't help but ascribe their own thinking to how a suspect thinks. Therefore, innocent people often assume a suspect will act guilty, furtive. You might not expect him to engage cordially or show up at press conferences.

But here's the thing -- and I think any experiments testing witness recall would bear this out -- RA could have shown up at a press conference wearing the very same blue jacket with LE playing the video on a screen right there and all he have to do is volunteer, all friendly-like, "sure picked the wrong jacket to wear today". Call the attention to himself, dismiss the association. Jovial, light-hearted. It's the best disguise there is.

I won't be surprised if someone spots him in those town hall photos. With his wife for added measure. Great prop.

JMO

Interesting. I don't think he went to the meetings. I suspect instead, he heard about them from people who did attend. Friends, family, maybe patrons at the place where he worked...

 

[FromGermany1]

Was it a court ordered gag?

I don't know, but think, it wasn't court ordered. Wanted by authorities (LE? Mayor?), so I remember .... vague.

 

[Gemmie]

That might be one of the only things I believe from the Franks Memo written by the Defense. The PCA states the bullet was located between the two girls, it didn't mentioned buried under leaves or dirt, but it might have been stepped on in the killer's haste to depart the scene or by LE when they were on the scene.

JMO

Well, I will have to stop referring to that Memorandum then. Thank you and apologies to all for any confusion!!

 

[Ravenmoon]

I do not know about Richard Allen's guilt. I can understand the thinking surrounding him being guilty because of the PCA timeline and witness statements, but there are a lot of things that could pose reasonable doubt in this case.

You have a main witness who supposedly saw Richard Allen on platform 1 of the Monon High Bridge, but then gives a description of someone who is way younger. This became the April 2019 sketch released to the public. Then this same witness thinks that black Ford Focuses look like 1965 Mercury Comets NOT black in color parked at the old CPS building at 2:15pm on the day of the crime.

The strangest part of the case has to be Richard Allen himself. If Richard Allen went and spoke with Dulin, the conservation officer in 2017, did Dulin let Richard Allen know he was being recorded or was the recording done without Richard Allen's knowledge? If Richard Allen knew he had been recorded at that time, would he really change his story about when he arrived and left the Monon High Bridge area? How would Richard Allen know that Dulin would lose the recording if, as Richard Allen claims, he was there between 12pm to 1:30pm and not from 1:30pm to 3:30pm? Did Richard Allen's lawyers tell him Dulin lost the recording and therefore now they could get away with changing the timeline of when Richard Allen arrived and left from the Monon High Bridge area?

Wouldn't the police have re-asked this question about when he arrived and left the Monon High Bridge area during their interrogations with Richard Allen in October 2022? Wouldn't that still be recorded? I guess we will have to wait till trial to see all the evidence regarding the timeline of when Richard Allen arrived and left the Monon High Bridge trail area.

Can you link the statement that a Comet was the vehicle seen?

I am not doubting it was said, many others have seen this statement. I just would really like to read the statement in it's entirety.


Thank you!