Accident or Intentional; Evidence and Debate

[LambChop]

Don't need a 'license' to call all of the defense liars. If it is a fact it is not slandering anyone.

ZsaZsa, Just don't make me listen to any more of JB's video interviews. Lambchops ears use to be short and close to the head.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Yes, there are, but the fact that the evidence is damning and will make people think she's guilty is not one of the exceptions.

If the defense receives discovery and believes it should not be released to the public (i.e., an exception should be made to the Sunshine Laws), the defense would have to file a motion to prevent the release, and we would know about it. (Remember how they fought to keep the jail video secret--the one showing her reaction when Caylee's remains were found?)

This is where I get confused. I seem to remember a LONG time ago some information (? what) being held back because it was entirely too prejudicial. Although I was very curious to know what it could be, in a way I was glad, knowing there was some information that proved her guilt .
Is that jail video to be released at some point?

 

[ZsaZsa]

ZsaZsa, Just don't make me listen to any more of JB's video interviews. Lambchops ears use to be short and close to the head.

Oh poor lamb! :innocent:
Maybe someone can provide a link to any doc/video that shows him telling the verifiable truth?

 

[logicalgirl]

This is where I get confused. I seem to remember a LONG time ago some information (? what) being held back because it was entirely too prejudicial. Although I was very curious to know what it could be, in a way I was glad, knowing there was some information that proved her guilt .
Is that jail video to be released at some point?

Was it not the jail video of Casey's reaction while sitting outside the medical unit hearing a body of a small child had been discovered on Suburban Drive?

My understanding is the Judge chose not to release it because it was too prejudicial but had not made a decision as to whether or not it could be used at trial. Anyone remember differently?

 

[wyome]

I wonder if the defense has asked Casey to submit to hypnosis and if this is something they could have done without the public knowing?

 

[ZsaZsa]

I agree that the officers were just bluffing about the security cameras. If there really were security cameras for that date and place, we would have seen a report a long time ago re: LE's review of the tapes.

But I don't believe the defense is going to go with the "dropped her off on the steps at Sawgrass" story. KC told the JB Park story on bond, and told the "Zanny watching Caylee at the Anthony home" story to Robyn A. My guess is that KC and the defense think that one of those stories is better than the Sawgrass story.

Fictional jail conversation between JB and KC:

JB: Too bad Zanny wasn't watching Caylee at your house. <WINK WINK> That would help us explain how she had possession of the duct tape, laundry bag, trash bags, WTP blanket, etc.

KC: Actually, she absolutely was watching Caylee at the house. I was scared to say anything about that before, because Cindy doesn't like Hispanics in the house.

MOO

According to their website, it is a gated community, so even if there were no cameras, there was someone allowing visitors through that can state if KC (with Caylee) went to the apartment...:dance:
http://sawgrassapartments-prg.com/SawgrassApts/Amenities.aspx

 

[ZsaZsa]

I wonder if the defense has asked Casey to submit to hypnosis and if this is something they could have done without the public knowing?

If they have asked I would venture a guess as to her response...:innocent:

 

[LambChop]

When did they say that they did not sell any pics? seriously, I remember them saying they did not sell a story. Can we find a link so we can prove that Jb lied? Don't know about the I will hold my head high thing. Is that in one of the letters? or is that something this RA said? I believe that Macaluso did show proof. There are people now that searched that area and there was no body found. I am not sure who the Judge ordered it to? Were they to provide that proof to the Judge? or the SA? Also, the Judge took the tool they needed to prove it away from them. He has tied their hands. We as a people may never know the truth, because the Judge is keeping the truth at bay. IMO I think you have failed to show me a lie by JB. Nothing against, but I think this whole Kc lieing thing is infectious and majority people begin to think they have a liscense to call anyone a liar. sorry thats just my opinion.

Not sure what you mean here. What tool did the Judge take and who would "they" be? All I know is one lie on an application for a job is enough to cost you that job, which could explain why neither GA or KC had jobs. One lie to LE could land you in jail. One lie to an EMT responder could cost someone their life. One lie to your Mom usually got you a timeout, an hour in the corner, or the (as my granddaughter's complain) dreaded writing...... It only takes one little tiny lie to make you a liar and the loss of your credibility. Now embelishments are probably right on the line. JMO

 

[southernbrunette]

If I remember correctly, Shirley even said KC should be put in GP. Shirley thought GP would make KC tell what happened to Caylee.

As for other people saying what a wonderful mother KC was to Caylee are you including CA who called her daughter an unfit mother?

ITA. Shirley's the only sane one in that bunch. Anyone can take pictures making themselves look like a loving mother and fool their friends into thinking they are by putting on the "motherly" act when they were around..but none of KC's friends lived with her. Just by her internet use and cell phone usage during daylight hours you can tell she was bored with Caylee, inconvenienced by her, and neglectful to her. Such a pity. So many much more deserving mothers would have felt so blessed to have an angel like Caylee. I can't believe, almost 2 years later, how sad this story still makes me for little Caylee. I almost hate to even think about what could have possibly happened to her though I want answers and justice..every now and then I have to take a step back because thinking of what she could have possibly went through is just too much

 

[ZsaZsa]

Was it not the jail video of Casey's reaction while sitting outside the medical unit hearing a body of a small child had been discovered on Suburban Drive?

My understanding is the Judge chose not to release it because it was too prejudicial but had not made a decision as to whether or not it could be used at trial. Anyone remember differently?

That might be what I remember- something was deemed too prejudicial, which made me rub my hands with glee.. I can wait. :dance:

 

[southernbrunette]

She also said she was a wonderful mother that could never hurt her child..so she has two opinions..

Panic-stricken Cindy who didn't realize what had happened to Caylee was revealing her "true" feelings when saying KC was a sociopath and a bad mom.

The Cindy who then realized what her daughter had done and felt compelled to try and save KC's life has since lied and made her out to be "mother of the year".

JMO.

 

[AZlawyer]

True about the motions, I understand their function, particular noted that Baez was doing the pp dance when Casey reacted to the remains being found. LOL

But anyway, can you please give an example then of what would qualify as an exclusion to the Sunshine Laws, if not for the most damning of evidence, just so well all understand their purpose? TIA.

This is where I get confused. I seem to remember a LONG time ago some information (? what) being held back because it was entirely too prejudicial. Although I was very curious to know what it could be, in a way I was glad, knowing there was some information that proved her guilt .
Is that jail video to be released at some point?

Was it not the jail video of Casey's reaction while sitting outside the medical unit hearing a body of a small child had been discovered on Suburban Drive?

My understanding is the Judge chose not to release it because it was too prejudicial but had not made a decision as to whether or not it could be used at trial. Anyone remember differently?

It was the jail video that was withheld because it was prejudicial. My point is that prejudice is not an automatic exception to the Sunshine Laws--a motion had to be filed, and therefore we knew about the request.

But in any event, "prejudicial" is not the same thing as "really really bad for the defendant." "Prejudicial" basically means "really really bad for the defendant in a way that might be unfair." I believe what the judge was saying was that he MIGHT exclude the video from evidence at trial because it MIGHT not be relevant (i.e., does Casey's reaction tend to prove guilt, or is it consistent with shock?), but he didn't want to decide that yet--so IN CASE he ended up excluding it as evidence, he didn't want 80% of Florida to have already watched it and have to be disqualified as jurors LOL.

Here's an exception: autopsy photos. We've already seen that one at work here.

 

[LambChop]

ITA. Shirley's the only sane one in that bunch. Anyone can take pictures making themselves look like a loving mother and fool their friends into thinking they are by putting on the "motherly" act when they were around..but none of KC's friends lived with her. Just by her internet use and cell phone usage during daylight hours you can tell she was bored with Caylee, inconvenienced by her, and neglectful to her. Such a pity. So many much more deserving mothers would have felt so blessed to have an angel like Caylee. I can't believe, almost 2 years later, how sad this story still makes me for little Caylee. I almost hate to even think about what could have possibly happened to her though I want answers and justice..every now and then I have to take a step back because thinking of what she could have possibly went through is just too much

Also the videos that were taken of Caylee. The one in the highchair, the one on the floor where Caylee is talking to the camera and getting frustrated because the person behind the camera will not answer her and a few others. All show detachment. Yet when you see the A's taking a video they act like normal people filming a video, talking, interacting. LOL, I talk on the video when there is only scenery. Not that that would suprise anyone. JMO

 

[ynotdivein]

Anyone can take pictures making themselves look like a loving mother and fool their friends into thinking they are by putting on the "motherly" act when they were around..but none of KC's friends lived with her. Just by her internet use and cell phone usage during daylight hours you can tell she was bored with Caylee, inconvenienced by her, and neglectful to her.

Respectfully snipped & bolded for focus. ITA and there is more evidence of your comments that I bolded above:

The pictures tell one story... but the videotapes of Caylee with no interaction, just that beautiful baby trying to engage and being met by total silence, tell another; a story more sinister and I think more real than those where KC knew she had an audience. IMO those tapes are a little glimpse of the life Caylee had been leading when alone with her mother. Objectification (why videotape at all without engaging with her?) and a kind of silent treatment that IMO amounts to child abuse, if not torture.

(ETA: LambChop, GMTA!!! Glad to know mine wasn't the only head that went there first.)

 

[southernbrunette]

When have you ever heard someone say of a mother, "Yeah, I just knew she would someday kill her baby!"

Probably never.

No one ever wants to believe the fact that it does happen.

The fact that she spoke of Casey's jealousy toward Caylee and Casey's hatred for Cindy proves that it did exist.

She is also not the only one who has made reference to those facts, which further solidifies their actuality.

O/T but I'd just like to state something because I see this whole jealousy thing being brought up a lot.

I am in a position very similar to what KC's was when Caylee was alive. I am 24 years old and I have a 3 year old daughter. I live at home with my parents. (I'm also 7 months pregnant now and babydaddy hit the road after almost 3 years and engagement..ugh) I consider myself very VERY blessed to have my parents to help me in the raising of my children and have considered them to be such big helps that I've legally given them shared custody of my daughter.

That being said, my parents hold me majorly accountable and responsible. I go to school and I work (though not now because I was fired when my belly started to show.) and I give my parents my money and my social security checks (my first born's father passed away) because they provide me and my children a place to live, food in our bellies, and all that good stuff. They are fully aware of my income and my comings and goings. I haven't "partied" since I had a baby. Sure I occasionally go out on a date to a movie or to dinner or something, but my parents would not stand for me living in their house - rent free - while they help me take care of my child, and me having the audacity to come home drunk or to stay out all night. They always know where I am and not because they don't trust me, but because we have agreed to raise these kids together, so they can help me learn to be a better mom. Let's face it, children don't come with a manual and at 20 years of age - I had no clue what I was getting into. However, my desire to become a good mom and to humble myself enough to trust my parents to teach me better ways is what sets me apart from KC.

There have been times when my daughter has called Nana (my mom) "Mommy" and there have been times when my daughter seems to take more of a liking to my parents than to me. Would I ever get JEALOUS? HELL NO. I know what kind of effort my parents have put forth in raising her and I also know that children can be "fickle" with who they "love the most" at times. Does my daughter know I'm her mommy? Yes. Does she love me? Absolutely! There isn't a doubt in my mind about that and I'd never get jealous of my own flesh & blood - never. I've always gotten a lot of attention from my parents and have at times been spoiled, but that all stopped when my daughter was born. She's now the center of everyone's universe in this household and gets way more attention than I do - and rightfully so. I wouldn't have it any other way! She's been gone for a little over a week spending time with her dad's mom & family for Easter and she comes home on Friday and this house has been SO quiet and so boring since she left! I'm sooo eager for her return because she adds an element of joy to our lives that just isn't here when she's gone.

So when I see KC being jealous of Caylee, I can't see anything "motherly" about that at all. Which I cannot fathom because you'd think that becoming a parent would make those natural instincts come out, but as I've quickly learned in recent months after being abandoned by someone I loved and trusted so much..anyone can create a child, that's just biology. Loving your child and parenting your child is a whole other ballgame. KC didn't see herself as a mother and that's her own fault for not being one. At the same time, she remembers her pregnancy very well and the fact that Caylee "came from her" and thought that trumped all rights anyone else had to claim Caylee as their own, or for Caylee to claim them as the case were. She thought that entitled her to some higher right than anyone else and disgustingly used Caylee as a pawn due to that very reason. Cindy should have snapped out of her denial and proceeded to get custody of Caylee, claimed Caylee on her taxes, gave Caylee health insurance so she could go to the doctor (from what all I've read Caylee never went to the doctor), and let KC fend for herself. If I acted the way KC had, you can BET my folks would fight me for custody in a heartbeat and would tell me to hit the road. But there's a reason I'm still here at home and so is my daughter..I want to be and I prove that I want to be with my actions towards both my parents and my daughter. I don't use her as a pawn, I don't get jealous of her..that's just absurd to me. Sure she's my little baby girl, but I'm not the only one raising her and I know that..and I'm grateful for that. Having the help from my parents is allowing me the chance to learn by example how to be a good parent, and giving me the opportunity to further my education so one day when I am ready to marry or be out on my own, I'll be able to provide for my children not just the bare necessities, but the kind of life I feel they deserve.

/endrant.

 

[southernbrunette]

Respectfully snipped & bolded for focus. ITA and there is more evidence of your comments that I bolded above:

The pictures tell one story... but the videotapes of Caylee with no interaction, just that beautiful baby trying to engage and being met by total silence, tell another; a story more sinister and I think more real than those where KC knew she had an audience. IMO those tapes are a little glimpse of the life Caylee had been leading when alone with her mother. Objectification (why videotape at all without engaging with her?) and a kind of silent treatment that IMO amounts to child abuse, if not torture.

(ETA: LambChop, GMTA!!! Glad to know mine wasn't the only head that went there first.)

Yep I didn't even think about the videos, spot on. To me, given the amount of time KC spent socializing, the all-too-staged photographs of her and Caylee as well as the videos where Caylee is trying to engage and it falling on deaf ears were proof to me of someone trying to show this cute little girl off on MySpace or whatever, not someone trying to create memories. No interaction at all in those videos, kind of eerie actually. And all the pictures of her and Caylee just seemed so staged, and oddly enough you never see KC looking bad or just simply "normal". I can't tell you how many time I'll run to grab the camera or my cell phone to take a picture of my Mallory doing something cute or hilarious and if I happen to be in the picture, I am definitely not always looking my best. That's what I could sense from KC's photographs with Caylee, there seemed to be more focus on KC and appearances than the objective of capturing a sweet Kodak moment of that sweet little girl.

 

[beach]

Good for you, stephanie!! :clap: Good luck to you, too!

fwiw, I am pretty sure that Caylee did get medical care because Cindy posted on her myspace about paying for her medical costs...and, I believe she even testified to that in her depo in the civil case.

 

[ynotdivein]

stephanie, thank you for sharing that so openly. If that was a rant, I'd vote it Rant of the Day!

(ETA: You might want to chat with one of our esteemed LOBsters {Lawyers on the Boards that is} about being fired when your belly started to show... that seems highly litigable from an HR standpoint... MOO)

 

[southernbrunette]

Good for you, stephanie!! :clap: Good luck to you, too!

fwiw, I am pretty sure that Caylee did get medical care because Cindy posted on her myspace about paying for her medical costs...and, I believe she even testified to that in her depo in the civil case.

Thank you very much.

I didn't know Caylee had medical care, I thought I'd read somewhere that she wasn't current on her immunizations. Even so, all the more reason for Cindy to have had the edge when going for custody. I'm sure she could have won and saved little Caylee's life, jmo.

 

[Dignity4Victims]

O/T but I'd just like to state something because I see this whole jealousy thing being brought up a lot.

I am in a position very similar to what KC's was when Caylee was alive. I am 24 years old and I have a 3 year old daughter. I live at home with my parents. (I'm also 7 months pregnant now and babydaddy hit the road after almost 3 years and engagement..ugh) I consider myself very VERY blessed to have my parents to help me in the raising of my children and have considered them to be such big helps that I've legally given them shared custody of my daughter.

That being said, my parents hold me majorly accountable and responsible. I go to school and I work (though not now because I was fired when my belly started to show.) and I give my parents my money and my social security checks (my first born's father passed away) because they provide me and my children a place to live, food in our bellies, and all that good stuff. They are fully aware of my income and my comings and goings. I haven't "partied" since I had a baby. Sure I occasionally go out on a date to a movie or to dinner or something, but my parents would not stand for me living in their house - rent free - while they help me take care of my child, and me having the audacity to come home drunk or to stay out all night. They always know where I am and not because they don't trust me, but because we have agreed to raise these kids together, so they can help me learn to be a better mom. Let's face it, children don't come with a manual and at 20 years of age - I had no clue what I was getting into. However, my desire to become a good mom and to humble myself enough to trust my parents to teach me better ways is what sets me apart from KC.

There have been times when my daughter has called Nana (my mom) "Mommy" and there have been times when my daughter seems to take more of a liking to my parents than to me. Would I ever get JEALOUS? HELL NO. I know what kind of effort my parents have put forth in raising her and I also know that children can be "fickle" with who they "love the most" at times. Does my daughter know I'm her mommy? Yes. Does she love me? Absolutely! There isn't a doubt in my mind about that and I'd never get jealous of my own flesh & blood - never. I've always gotten a lot of attention from my parents and have at times been spoiled, but that all stopped when my daughter was born. She's now the center of everyone's universe in this household and gets way more attention than I do - and rightfully so. I wouldn't have it any other way! She's been gone for a little over a week spending time with her dad's mom & family for Easter and she comes home on Friday and this house has been SO quiet and so boring since she left! I'm sooo eager for her return because she adds an element of joy to our lives that just isn't here when she's gone.

So when I see KC being jealous of Caylee, I can't see anything "motherly" about that at all. Which I cannot fathom because you'd think that becoming a parent would make those natural instincts come out, but as I've quickly learned in recent months after being abandoned by someone I loved and trusted so much..anyone can create a child, that's just biology. Loving your child and parenting your child is a whole other ballgame. KC didn't see herself as a mother and that's her own fault for not being one. At the same time, she remembers her pregnancy very well and the fact that Caylee "came from her" and thought that trumped all rights anyone else had to claim Caylee as their own, or for Caylee to claim them as the case were. She thought that entitled her to some higher right than anyone else and disgustingly used Caylee as a pawn due to that very reason. Cindy should have snapped out of her denial and proceeded to get custody of Caylee, claimed Caylee on her taxes, gave Caylee health insurance so she could go to the doctor (from what all I've read Caylee never went to the doctor), and let KC fend for herself. If I acted the way KC had, you can BET my folks would fight me for custody in a heartbeat and would tell me to hit the road. But there's a reason I'm still here at home and so is my daughter..I want to be and I prove that I want to be with my actions towards both my parents and my daughter. I don't use her as a pawn, I don't get jealous of her..that's just absurd to me. Sure she's my little baby girl, but I'm not the only one raising her and I know that..and I'm grateful for that. Having the help from my parents is allowing me the chance to learn by example how to be a good parent, and giving me the opportunity to further my education so one day when I am ready to marry or be out on my own, I'll be able to provide for my children not just the bare necessities, but the kind of life I feel they deserve.

/endrant.

What I have bolded in your post is one of the many reasons why Casey's behavior does not reflect Caylee dying by accident.

It's called "history", and there is far too much of Casey's history, some very recent history in fact before Caylee died that proves gross dysfunction in that entire household, but particularly from Casey. For Caylee to have 'coincidentally' died by accident at a time when there was so much rage, plotting by Casey behind Cindy's back about obtaining ownership of the house, anger over Casey's most recent theft from her grandfather's nursing home account and Cindy seeking counseling due to Casey, well, it is entirely preposterous to even consider.

Had there been an accident, at some point, even if it's only after Casey was caught hiding out at Tony's, Casey would have broken down in sobbing tears at the loss of Caylee.

Heck, for that matter, even Casey's jail letters didn't reflect a mourning of Caylee. Not even close! The very few times Casey even mentioned Caylee's name, she couldn't hold a "Caylee thought" for more than a split second before she was off and running to wonder what she missed for lunch!

It sounds like you are no comparison to Casey, Steph, and for that I am sure your parents are most grateful. Good for you, good for them! :dance: