Accident or Intentional; Evidence and Debate

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  • #21
But which one????

ZFG #1 = Sawgrass fame??
Zanny #2 = JBP fame??
Zany #3 = Letter "Real Zany" fame?? You know the one she forgives and KC claims had nothing to do with the death of her child. Funny because she admits not having contact with Zany since the last time she saw her but KNOWS Zany did not kill her child.....so who would that leave.....I believe that would be Ms. Rock * Star Celeb herself. JMO

Okay, I believe that sawgrass fame is the only one that Kc has refferred to. Jbp is or was speculation by GA and he admits to it. I do not know of Kc saying it was JBP.

This third one seems to fit with sawgrass fame, I believe they are one in the same.

Who this mystery person was that was looking into the missing child for her. I don't know.

You can laugh, but I am not sure they are going to steer away from the original Zanaida story. Have seen no indication of this. I believe they are going to attack the States case and The mistakes made by Le to create reasonable doubt.

I do believe that the defense has something to offer at trial. That is the missing link as we discuss the options. We have not heard their side of the story as to what happened. And rightfully so, They should keep their strategy secret until trial. I want her to get a fair trial so we can get to the whole truth of what happened. JMO
 
  • #22
I

I also think that Mothers defend and/protect their children (it is biologically programmed into us after all

Oh how I wish this was true in EVERY case of motherhood. It has been proven over and over again that this statement is NOT true unfortunately.
 
  • #23
I have wondered if the flurry of calls was'nt to try to see how much time she had before someone would be home. If something happened in the backyard intentionally or not (I believe intentionally) she may have wanted to see where they all were in relation to getting home. Every mother or babysitter has a story about a time or two that they felt they did something wrong and harmed a child. You were not negligent just not experienced and how could you be, forgive yourself you were just a child yourself. IMO

There is NOTHING in the flurry of calls and the timeframe surrounding it to indicate any distress. Part of the time she is traveling, texting and making calls. She did not relay any emergency at that time. Within minutes of the flurry of calls she is on the road.

But at 4:11 p.m., Anthony began trying to reach her mother, Cindy Anthony, making four attempts in two minutes, according to records. Anthony then traveled north from her parents' home and called Lazzaro for one minute at 4:19 p.m., Pipitone reported. Two minutes later, she talked to Grund for a minute, and tried to call her mother again at 4:25 p.m., Pipitone said.
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/17931576/detail.html

GA claims he saw KC and Caylee leave the house around 12:50.

1:00 PM- AL calls
1:26 PM- texts JG
1:37 PM- text from JG
1:44 PM- calls AH
2:00PM-George leaves for work
2:52 PM- Jesse thinks he may have heard Caylee during this call in the background. 12 minute conversation where Casey says her parents are getting a divorce and she had to move out and find a place to live.
Page 14
http://flawebhosting.net/docs092308/jg092308.pdf
3:04 PM- call from George to the house
3:35 PM- calls AL

flurry of calls
4:10 PM- calls George at work
4:11 PM -calls Cindy twice
4:13 PM -calls Cindy twice
4:14 PM- calls George
4:18 PM- texts AL
4:18 pm – traveling north -cell tower pings near Chickasaw Trail
4:19 PM- text from AL
4:19 PM- calls AL
4:21 PM- calls JG twice
4:25 PM- calls Cindy

summary of pings

0000-0322 continuous cell activity
break in activity sleep pattern
0745-1614 in the area of the parents
1618-1757 movement to the north, west and northwest
1757-2317 in the area of Semoran Blvd and Aloma ave
break in activity sleep pattern

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/20318259/detail.html
 
  • #24
Okay, I believe that sawgrass fame is the only one that Kc has refferred to. Jbp is or was speculation by GA and he admits to it. I do not know of Kc saying it was JBP.

This third one seems to fit with sawgrass fame, I believe they are one in the same.

Who this mystery person was that was looking into the missing child for her. I don't know.

You can laugh, but I am not sure they are going to steer away from the original Zanaida story. Have seen no indication of this. I believe they are going to attack the States case and The mistakes made by Le to create reasonable doubt.

I do believe that the defense has something to offer at trial. That is the missing link as we discuss the options. We have not heard their side of the story as to what happened. And rightfully so, They should keep their strategy secret until trial. I want her to get a fair trial so we can get to the whole truth of what happened. JMO

Not buying that farm - see post #16 and throw in the name Roy Kronk.
 
  • #25
I

I also think that Mothers defend and/protect their children (it is biologically programmed into us after all

Oh how I wish this was true in EVERY case of motherhood. It has been proven over and over again that this statement is NOT true unfortunately.

I should have said "most". My apologies:innocent:
 
  • #26
Astraea: Rest assured we have all been there with accidents involving our children. My daughter use to have temper tantrums when she was a baby. She would hold her breathe and pass out, she would cry so hard. Doctor said she'll start breathing again once she passes out. Was no comfort to me but when I ignored her she stopped doing it. So they can cry so hard nothing comes out and they forget to breathe. She was probably very scared. My point is you were scared, too but did not go out and rent a movie about leaving a child alone where she could get injured or any fact similiar. You watched for signs that the child was okay and if she was not I'm sure you would have called 911 just as any normal person would do.

No one is beyond making poor choices but in an emergency our instinct takes over and we ask for help. Apparently renting movies at Blockbuster was on KC's agenda and she had her mission and the death of her child would not stop her. Sad. JMO
 
  • #27
Okay, I believe that sawgrass fame is the only one that Kc has refferred to. Jbp is or was speculation by GA and he admits to it. I do not know of Kc saying it was JBP.

This third one seems to fit with sawgrass fame, I believe they are one in the same.

Who this mystery person was that was looking into the missing child for her. I don't know.

You can laugh, but I am not sure they are going to steer away from the original Zanaida story. Have seen no indication of this. I believe they are going to attack the States case and The mistakes made by Le to create reasonable doubt.

I do believe that the defense has something to offer at trial. That is the missing link as we discuss the options. We have not heard their side of the story as to what happened. And rightfully so, They should keep their strategy secret until trial. I want her to get a fair trial so we can get to the whole truth of what happened. JMO

I don't understand what this means. What mystery person?
 
  • #28
I am sorry I must have missed where Shirley said that she believed that Casey would kill Caylee. I also hate to say it, but I dont think she was involved with Casey and Caylee enough to have an opinion on that. Not to mention IF Shirley said that, there are an awful lot of other statements from those who WERE involved closely with Casey and Caylee who say the opposite.

I also think that Mothers defend and/protect their children (it is biologically programmed into us after all). I think that Shirley would have a negative view of Casey for many reasons that have to do with HER daughter Cindy, and not necessarily her "own observations".


In SP's police interview, she tells the detectives, she felt Casey hated Cindy more than she loved Caylee..She didn't say she killed her...
 
  • #29
There is NOTHING in the flurry of calls and the timeframe surrounding it to indicate any distress. Part of the time she is traveling, texting and making calls. She did not relay any emergency at that time. Within minutes of the flurry of calls she is on the road.



GA claims he saw KC and Caylee leave the house around 12:50.

1:00 PM- AL calls
1:26 PM- texts JG
1:37 PM- text from JG
1:44 PM- calls AH
2:00PM-George leaves for work
2:52 PM- Jesse thinks he may have heard Caylee during this call in the background. 12 minute conversation where Casey says her parents are getting a divorce and she had to move out and find a place to live.
Page 14
http://flawebhosting.net/docs092308/jg092308.pdf
3:04 PM- call from George to the house
3:35 PM- calls AL

flurry of calls
4:10 PM- calls George at work
4:11 PM -calls Cindy twice
4:13 PM -calls Cindy twice
4:14 PM- calls George
4:18 PM- texts AL
4:18 pm – traveling north -cell tower pings near Chickasaw Trail
4:19 PM- text from AL
4:19 PM- calls AL
4:21 PM- calls JG twice
4:25 PM- calls Cindy

summary of pings

0000-0322 continuous cell activity
break in activity sleep pattern
0745-1614 in the area of the parents
1618-1757 movement to the north, west and northwest
1757-2317 in the area of Semoran Blvd and Aloma ave
break in activity sleep pattern

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/20318259/detail.html

She could have been loading a dead Caylee in the car as during the flurry of calls she does ping on the tower near the home. Just by phone records I'm not sure how you would be able to tell if she were distressed or not its just a phone log. Thats the way I understand the phone pings.
 
  • #30
I believe it was an accident. I also believe that Casey freaked out after. I am not an expert in mental health, but I honestly believe after Caylee died she "snapped".

When I look at the pictures of Caylee with her Mother (and the rest of the family) I see love. I see nothing but love. I see Caylee loves her Mother. She doesnt seem to fear her in videos or pictures.

When I read the statements of people who KNOW them, they all say that Casey was a good and loving Mother.

I look at the statements of her friends that suggest at a certain point in time something started being NOT "right" with her. That she would deny things had happened when they had.These people KNOW Casey better then any one looking in from the outside.


When I look at where the cadaver digs hitting on scent in the backyard, it tells me Caylee was dead inside the back yard beside the pool and in the playhouse.

When I add in the FLURRY of calls to her Mother etc it tells me she was FREAKING out. If planned she would have had no reason to freak.

When I read Caysees own writings (texts,emails,chats), I see that her daughter came first. I am sure this was hard at times being so young, but I dont think she wanted a "new life", as much as some here seem to suggest/think.

Personal Story

When I was 16/17 I used to babsit for my Mother. My youngest sibling was a newborn. The next in line was a toddler. At lunch one day I set the bassinet with baby on the table to feed her. The toddler went running for the other room. I followed in hot pursuit, more worried about the one with moving legs then the one who couldnt move. As I picked the toddler up, I heard a big THUD from the dining room. Although I knew the baby wasnt even sitting up yet, I knew that noise was indicative of a MAJOR problem. As I came running back into the kitchen with toddler on my hip, I saw the baby on the floor. I ran so fast to pick her up, the look on her face was horrifying!!! She was SCREAMING but no noise was coming out! I picked her up and held her close. I was so panicked it still brings me to tears, and I feel bad even sharing this as it is an admittance of neglect on my own part.

Anyway, I held her so tight I think it caused the scream to come out of her. I stayed with her that entire afternoon so fearful that she wouldnt be ok, after all I was old enough to know about concussions and not allowing sleep. Long story short she WAS and IS ok(14 now and knows the story well...I cry everytime it comes up), but I NEVER told my Mother. Not for a year or more. The way she was lying on that floor she would have had to do a complete flip out of that car seat. She could have very well died form a concussion or cracked skull right then and there, but for some reason God held her and me that day and I have never EVER left a child that young unattended again regardless of it being 30 seconds or less.

I am only relaying this story to point out that I do understand the panic that sets in and the fear of what my Mother was going to say and/or do to me. If she had died, yes I would have called 911(I am pretty sure), but my mental state at that time was horrible. I never felt so horrible in my life! I feared what my Mother (and everyone else) was going to think of me. As an adult now, I am sure I would react differently in the same situation. It doesnt change my reaction in my late teens to "hide" it :(

Must be why she is still the sister I coddle to ...I will feel guilty FOREVER!

Sorry for the O/T....just trying to explain my own rationale for panic setting in and the need to "hide" her neglect (albeit oin a much grander scale then my own).


Wow, what a frightening story. It shook you to the core! I think most of us have had an episode in our lives that make us tear up and think, "omg...what if!" Thanks for sharing.

I agree that Caylee's death was probably an accident.

I don't agree that Caylee was always put first by Casey. But I don't agree with others that she was despised by her mother, either. I don't think Casey cleared all of the stages of maturity. I am not a pyschologist, but I do know that having a child changes the priorities of the majority of mothers. Sometimes it can be a tough change (and hormones don't always help), but it happens nonetheless, and it's always for the better. Casey had never been on her own, never held a job, and never had to be responsible for anything. You can't expect a child (and let's face it, Casey never matured beyond the mental age of a teenager) to become responsible for another human being without learning to be responsible for yourself first. This arrangement was set up for failure.

The flurry of phone calls does concern me as well. I know many point to past flurries and blow it off. But I'm still open to consider this significant.

I, too, see the majority of friends statements saying how "overprotective" Casey was and how loving she was with Caylee. Twos can be a rough age for some moms (although it was one of my favorite times!)....I would think there'd be many more friends/bfs saying she was "short with Caylee, or ignored her, or swatted her behind", etc.

A lot of daughter/mother relationships are strained, and CA and Casey had one of the worst arrangements I can think of. Casey was struggling with independence and trying to fit into a mold she was grossly ill-equipped to fill; and CA was trying to parent a kid she should have dealt with 10 years ago. It's very sad. But I'm not convinced that she snapped and killed her kid because she was mad at Cindy.

I do think, though, that if it was an accident, and she did discover Caylee was cold, she could very well have *snapped* at that point. She's been very limited in emotion....she's a very damaged person.

I don't read as much into the defense not pursuing the accident angle. No one has persuaded Casey into cutting a deal or have successfully talked her into taking this path. Doesn't mean they haven't tried, who knows. An accident angle is something the defendant would have to agree on. So the fact that they're not pursuing it, to me, doesn't mean that that's not what happened. JMO
 
  • #31
I believe it was an accident. I also believe that Casey freaked out after. I am not an expert in mental health, but I honestly believe after Caylee died she "snapped".

When I look at the pictures of Caylee with her Mother (and the rest of the family) I see love. I see nothing but love. I see Caylee loves her Mother. She doesnt seem to fear her in videos or pictures.

When I read the statements of people who KNOW them, they all say that Casey was a good and loving Mother.

I look at the statements of her friends that suggest at a certain point in time something started being NOT "right" with her. That she would deny things had happened when they had.These people KNOW Casey better then any one looking in from the outside.

When I look at where the cadaver digs hitting on scent in the backyard, it tells me Caylee was dead inside the back yard beside the pool and in the playhouse.

When I add in the FLURRY of calls to her Mother etc it tells me she was FREAKING out. If planned she would have had no reason to freak.

When I read Caysees own writings (texts,emails,chats), I see that her daughter came first. I am sure this was hard at times being so young, but I dont think she wanted a "new life", as much as some here seem to suggest/think.

Personal Story

When I was 16/17 I used to babsit for my Mother. My youngest sibling was a newborn. The next in line was a toddler. At lunch one day I set the bassinet with baby on the table to feed her. The toddler went running for the other room. I followed in hot pursuit, more worried about the one with moving legs then the one who couldnt move. As I picked the toddler up, I heard a big THUD from the dining room. Although I knew the baby wasnt even sitting up yet, I knew that noise was indicative of a MAJOR problem. As I came running back into the kitchen with toddler on my hip, I saw the baby on the floor. I ran so fast to pick her up, the look on her face was horrifying!!! She was SCREAMING but no noise was coming out! I picked her up and held her close. I was so panicked it still brings me to tears, and I feel bad even sharing this as it is an admittance of neglect on my own part.

Anyway, I held her so tight I think it caused the scream to come out of her. I stayed with her that entire afternoon so fearful that she wouldnt be ok, after all I was old enough to know about concussions and not allowing sleep. Long story short she WAS and IS ok(14 now and knows the story well...I cry everytime it comes up), but I NEVER told my Mother. Not for a year or more. The way she was lying on that floor she would have had to do a complete flip out of that car seat. She could have very well died form a concussion or cracked skull right then and there, but for some reason God held her and me that day and I have never EVER left a child that young unattended again regardless of it being 30 seconds or less.

I am only relaying this story to point out that I do understand the panic that sets in and the fear of what my Mother was going to say and/or do to me. If she had died, yes I would have called 911(I am pretty sure), but my mental state at that time was horrible. I never felt so horrible in my life! I feared what my Mother (and everyone else) was going to think of me. As an adult now, I am sure I would react differently in the same situation. It doesnt change my reaction in my late teens to "hide" it :(

Must be why she is still the sister I coddle to ...I will feel guilty FOREVER!

Sorry for the O/T....just trying to explain my own rationale for panic setting in and the need to "hide" her neglect (albeit oin a much grander scale then my own).

Hey more than a thanks, but great post. Now my comment.

I respectfully disagree with your conclusion that it was an accident. I mostly agree with the things you said leading you to believe it was an accident. This is a great explaination of what could have happened. To me also it does not make sense that Kc is this selfish, careless mother, when the witness testimony is that she was a caring mother. The pictures paint a thousand words.

The second part of your post to me is an example of what happens everday here in America. All you have to do is pick up an almanac and read the home accidents data. There are close calls everyday. I have had a few close calls myself, with children and lost many hours of sleep over it. A person cannot be in 2 places at one time, so quick decision skills are required by a care taker. I disagree with your assumption that you were neglegent. The first toddler ran off and you reacted to go get the toddler. I think most would have done the same thing. Accidents do happen all the time. Not telling your Mother was also normal in my opinion. I bet she didn't tell her Mother everything either. The important thing is, that the child was okay and that you learned a valuable lesson from it. We can not be reminded enough how precious life is, and that it can be lost in one second. You brought me that reminder today. And for that I thank you...... I am going to call my kids right now and tell them that I love them and to be careful.
 
  • #32
Sometimes in my heart I says to myself if I want to not think that Caylee isn’t alive but I just wondered if she hated her mom more than she loved Caylee…

Snipped by me....Shirley says she wonders...not that she believes.

I also wanted to make a note that I personally found the questions to her quite leading.
 
  • #33
Okay, I believe that sawgrass fame is the only one that Kc has refferred to. Jbp is or was speculation by GA and he admits to it. I do not know of Kc saying it was JBP.

This third one seems to fit with sawgrass fame, I believe they are one in the same.

Who this mystery person was that was looking into the missing child for her. I don't know.

You can laugh, but I am not sure they are going to steer away from the original Zanaida story. Have seen no indication of this. I believe they are going to attack the States case and The mistakes made by Le to create reasonable doubt.

I do believe that the defense has something to offer at trial. That is the missing link as we discuss the options. We have not heard their side of the story as to what happened. And rightfully so, They should keep their strategy secret until trial. I want her to get a fair trial so we can get to the whole truth of what happened. JMO

While I respect your opinion I feel quite differently about the whole situation. Testimony from LP, TMc and others within the household at the time heard directly from KC herself about JBP. We found later that GA admits this had been talked about around their table as a possible scenario and when KC was released and disappeared into the bathroom with Cindy, KC finishing her shower and enters the livingroom and suddenly has a new ZFG story.

Keeping their strategy secret will be hard to do when the client writes letters from jail. Plus keeping secrets can be that there is no strategy yet that holds water or why would they be so stressed out because they can't get all TES's records if they already know the perp. Defense can only offer what KC has given them and so far it's just Nanny, Zanni, Zani, Zany. Whichever one they want to choose. The only perp KC has so far admitted with three different scenarios is Zanny. She has no proof without a statement from Zanny what happened to her child. She has not revealed anything that has the slightest bit of reality to it. All fairyland. Problem is when you tell the media that a person whose child is MISSING that they can't devulge any information because that information could damage your client's chances for a fair trial.........WHOA.

The jury will be people just like the many people who make up Websleuths. "You can't fool all the people all the time." This quote was good when it was first stated and it still stands today. JMO
 
  • #34
Sometimes in my heart I says to myself if I want to not think that Caylee isn’t alive but I just wondered if she hated her mom more than she loved Caylee…

Snipped by me....Shirley says she wonders...not that she believes.

I also wanted to make a note that I personally found the questions to her quite leading.

It's what LE does to encourage a response. Their not in court, their investigators. They sometimes ask the question 3 or 4 different ways to make sure you understand the question and what they want from you. JMO
 
  • #35
Wow, what a frightening story. It shook you to the core! I think most of us have had an episode in our lives that make us tear up and think, "omg...what if!" Thanks for sharing.

I agree that Caylee's death was probably an accident.

I don't agree that Caylee was always put first by Casey. But I don't agree with others that she was despised by her mother, either. I don't think Casey cleared all of the stages of maturity. I am not a pyschologist, but I do know that having a child changes the priorities of the majority of mothers. Sometimes it can be a tough change (and hormones don't always help), but it happens nonetheless, and it's always for the better. Casey had never been on her own, never held a job, and never had to be responsible for anything. You can't expect a child (and let's face it, Casey never matured beyond the mental age of a teenager) to become responsible for another human being without learning to be responsible for yourself first. This arrangement was set up for failure.

The flurry of phone calls does concern me as well. I know many point to past flurries and blow it off. But I'm still open to consider this significant.

I, too, see the majority of friends statements saying how "overprotective" Casey was and how loving she was with Caylee. Twos can be a rough age for some moms (although it was one of my favorite times!)....I would think there'd be many more friends/bfs saying she was "short with Caylee, or ignored her, or swatted her behind", etc.

A lot of daughter/mother relationships are strained, and CA and Casey had one of the worst arrangements I can think of. Casey was struggling with independence and trying to fit into a mold she was grossly ill-equipped to fill; and CA was trying to parent a kid she should have dealt with 10 years ago. It's very sad. But I'm not convinced that she snapped and killed her kid because she was mad at Cindy.

I do think, though, that if it was an accident, and she did discover Caylee was cold, she could very well have *snapped* at that point. She's been very limited in emotion....she's a very damaged person.

I don't read as much into the defense not pursuing the accident angle. No one has persuaded Casey into cutting a deal or have successfully talked her into taking this path. Doesn't mean they haven't tried, who knows. An accident angle is something the defendant would have to agree on. So the fact that they're not pursuing it, to me, doesn't mean that that's not what happened. JMO

Disagree. Shirley Plesea, CA's mother stated that she thought KC hated CA more than she loved Caylee. Shirley is not in the position of trying to analyze her behavior from a website, or from information in the media. She knew them both intimately.

KC's own words - she told LA that CA had accused her many times of being an unfit mother. Who would be a better observer of her behavior than her own mother- not necessarily her peers, when she was on her best behavior.

Flurry of calls? Her mother wasn't answering her and who can blame her?
 
  • #36
Not buying that farm - see post #16 and throw in the name Roy Kronk.

What are you talking about? buying what? If you are talking about soddi, then what is it that your not buying? The defense is going with the soddi theory IMO, is that not your opinion? Elaborate for me
 
  • #37
Sometimes in my heart I says to myself if I want to not think that Caylee isn’t alive but I just wondered if she hated her mom more than she loved Caylee…

Snipped by me....Shirley says she wonders...not that she believes.

I also wanted to make a note that I personally found the questions to her quite leading.

If you listen to Shirley's interview you may find her as I did, a pretty shrewd observer of KC. It is a subject she had spent a lot of time worrying about and her 'I wonder' is rhetorical at that point- she already knew the answer.
 
  • #38
The duct tape seals the deal for me.

Killers have been putting duct tape over the mouth and nose of other humans to intentionally suffocate them ever since duct tape was invented.

A search for murder by duct tape specifically over the mouth and nose yielded this list of killers in only 3 pages. ALL were convicted.

Ray J. Dandridge
Sergio Colgan
Wiseman Ndlovu
Shawn Lawrence
Saddqui Martin
Robert Chan
Inez Ann Ottis
Ciriaco Valencia
Shawn Daniel Swenson
Joseph Adam Gardner
Brookey West taped plastic over her mother's face

NOBODY has ever used duct tape over the mouth and nose of another human after death as a successful defense. Not to stage a kidnapping, not to stop-up body fluid, not to keep away flies, not to stop-up swimming pool water, and not to hold the mouth shut so the body would look better.
 
  • #39
I don't understand what this means. What mystery person?

On 48 hours Jb LKB and TM were all asked about the 31 days, Their response was that she did have someone looking into it.

I really should start a thread called "Clues from the Defense" but I guess I am too lazy. lol
 
  • #40
If you listen to Shirley's interview you may find her as I did, a pretty shrewd observer of KC. It is a subject she had spent a lot of time worrying about and her 'I wonder' is rhetorical at that point- she already knew the answer.

I'm not reading into her statement as she could have just put it out there as fact and she didnt.. I do believe she felt there was something wrong with Casey based on her interview.
 
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