Accident or Intentional; Evidence and Debate

[notthatsmart]

He said he has no rights to her story. What is the difference between selling her story and selling videos and photos of her and Caylee? He is just playing with words in his usual shady way. He is still selling the victim's photos to pay for her murderer's defense.

No worries. I was just trying to take note that Jb lied. I mean to me, that is a huge accusation against an equal respected officer of the court. I think there is a difference between the story and the pictures/video. If he said I did not sell pictures to the press, then that is different to me then saying I did not sell a story to the press. I understand that he or Kc sold photos to help her pay for her defense, but when did he lie about it? I thought he was just being political and saying no comment on Kc defense fund it is no ones business.

So, I am trying to find this lie. If it is there, I will find it so I can take note. thanks

 

[Swancat63]

JB didn't kill Caylee(unless it's a conspiracy lol) and I don't think I will ever LIKE the fact that attorneys do everything and anything to get their client off. I know that is their job, but I'm also all about JUSTICE FOR CAYLEE AND ALL CHILDREN. Not ever reporting Caylee missing, even with all the other "stuff" raises all kinds of red flags. For me. JMHO

 

[ZsaZsa]

No worries. I was just trying to take note that Jb lied. I mean to me, that is a huge accusation against an equal respected officer of the court. I think there is a difference between the story and the pictures/video. If he said I did not sell pictures to the press, then that is different to me then saying I did not sell a story to the press. I understand that he or Kc sold photos to help her pay for her defense, but when did he lie about it? I thought he was just being political and saying no comment on Kc defense fund it is no ones business.

So, I am trying to find this lie. If it is there, I will find it so I can take note. thanks

It is everyones business when the possibility of conflict of interest arises. That is a huge red flag.

He lied when he said he did not sell her story.
He sold her pictures and videos. Those photos tell a story. ABC simply added a commentary.
ABC lied when they said they didn't pay for photos and videos, they simply paid a licensing fee.
Those are lies just dressed up as 'mis truths' as the Anthonys would call them.

 

[notthatsmart]

You seem to be very meticulous about word selection. I see that Baez lied in the following or not totally forthcoming. Take note that he stated the deal was done with his client when it was done with him. Please provide a link for him saying it was only for the "story".

The deal was done with an attorney representing several owners of copyrighted content, ABC News spokeswoman Cathie Levine said. That attorney is Baez, she added

This may be a good question for one of the Lawyers. Because the statement by CL makes is true in both ways. He is representing Kc, so therefore he may act as Kc. Not sure. I will ask AZ. Thanks. If you are correct about this, then I will take note that Jb lied.

 

[ZsaZsa]

The deal was done with an attorney representing several owners of copyrighted content, ABC News spokeswoman Cathie Levine said. That attorney is Baez, she added

This may be a good question for one of the Lawyers. Because the statement by CL makes is true in both ways. He is representing Kc, so therefore he may act as Kc. Not sure. I will ask AZ. Thanks. If you are correct about this, then I will take note that Jb lied.

So when he says the deal was done with his client- is he suggesting that KC negotiated the deal with ABC? Or did he? She agreed to the terms that he negotiated with ABC. Lies come so natural to him you have to read between the lines a lot...

 

[ZsaZsa]

No worries. I was just trying to take note that Jb lied. I mean to me, that is a huge accusation against an equal respected officer of the court. I think there is a difference between the story and the pictures/video. If he said I did not sell pictures to the press, then that is different to me then saying I did not sell a story to the press. I understand that he or Kc sold photos to help her pay for her defense, but when did he lie about it? I thought he was just being political and saying no comment on Kc defense fund it is no ones business.

So, I am trying to find this lie. If it is there, I will find it so I can take note. thanks

Could you produce any comments from people who find that Baez is an "equal respected officer of the Court"? I have seen so many from his peers that ridicule him, declare him incompetent and obviously have NO respect for him - and they are not on the SA staff, that it seems to be the consensus of opinion in the legal community.

 

[LambChop]

JB is not suppose to profit from helping to sell story/items of KC's crime. If KC had been encouraged to plea to an accident when the state made it's offer the case would have been over. No more money going to JB. But since the DEAL with ABC had just been struck it APPEARS that JB had no incentive to stongly advise his client to take the deal. So here we are today, KC is sticking by her man (that's my story and I'm sticking to it) with all the evidence that is piling up and KC's out of money but JB got paid. No depos done, no examination of the state's evidence, etc. But JB got paid because he brokered a deal for KC to sell her pictures. What a guy. And, again, intentional makes for a much more interesting story if you plan to do a book down the road. Actions still speak louder than words. That's my opinion and I'm stickin to it.

 

[LambChop]

Could you produce any comments from people who find that Baez is an "equal respected officer of the Court"? I have seen so many from his peers that ridicule him, declare him incompetent and obviously have NO respect for him - and they are not on the SA staff, that it seems to be the consensus of opinion in the legal community.

LOL. ZsaZsa: I think NTS means it's a "given". He obviously is expected to live up to it but apparently falls short according to many of the members of the legal community. Also big difference between representing and brokering. ABC would have the date and my guess it was negotiated while KC was still in jail before being bonded out. But I'm way O/T. JMO

 

[sumbunny]

Jose benefited from casey's sale of pictures, in the tune of 89k. I find it unethical to say the least. I'm still amazed he is allowed to practice law. MOO

 

[ZsaZsa]

Jose benefited from casey's sale of pictures, in the tune of 89k. I find it unethical to say the least. I'm still amazed he is allowed to practice law. MOO

If it's not against the law to sell photos and articles from the victim to pay for the murderer's defense it ought to be. Unethical, yes that is the understatement of the year!

 

[Astraea]

I believe wholeheartedly that it was intentional. She was thinking about doing away with Caylee long before it happened. The fight just pushed that date up for Casey. In her letters, she mentions her plans getting tangled up. I think she meant her plans for killing Caylee. Because she can't control her temper, and because of the fight the night of the 15th, Caylee was murdered sooner than expected.

I do think she intended for Caylee's death to be an accident, thus the moving of the pool ladder. However, she murdered Caylee before she her accident scenario was to play out. Then she panicked because Caylee wasn't supposed to die the way she did, and Casey knew she couldn't play it off as an accident because of the duct tape, which I believe was the murder weapon. Caylee was probably screaming for Cindy over and over and Casey snapped, not able to take it anymore.

It's easy to make it look like you love someone, especially when you have someone else taking care of that child. Casey should have shouldered raising Caylee herself from the start, but in the interest of family image, Cindy took over and then didn't/couldn't let Caylee go. You can see in most pictures how Casey vies for just as much of attention as Caylee instead of letting her child BE the center of attention, which is what normal loving parents do. It's difficult to accept, but the rose colored glasses need to come off. Some parents do not love their own children, and even murder those children that they do not love. Just because you can get pregnant and give birth does not mean you know how to be or want to be a mother. Casey just doesn't have it in her to be a good mother or sacrifice herself for her child. She chose to sacrifice her child for herself instead.

I wish I had a link to that 2007 Christmas picture of Santa Claus in the middle with Casey alone on the left, and Caylee in Cindy's lap on the right. I thought it was vey telling. Why would Caylee not be on Casey's lap or Santa's lap in that picture? It tells me Cindy definitely saw herself as Caylee's mother and Casey was more of a sister than mother figure to Caylee.

Casey is also remorseless and delusional. She's never admitted to having ANYTHING to do with what happened to Caylee and just wants to move on with her life. And oh, at the last gasp, we should feel sorry for Casey because she was supposedly abused, not sorry for Caylee because she was murdered. We should excuse Casey for sacrificing Caylee because of what might or might not have happened to Casey. Caylee basically had to go because of Casey because Casey might have been abused. Once again, it's poor me, all about me with Casey. Abuse does not and never will make Caylee's murder acceptable, and it's disgusting the Casey would throw out abuse allegations to get more sympathy for HERSELF. This case has always and continues to be about Casey, never once has Casey even tried to make it about Caylee!

Casey has also never helped the police once and this whole case has been one big game to her. She's hating her parents because they didn't clean up the mess and make it go away. She's enjoying life in jail for Chrissakes, and her attorneys are her "boys" that will gt her out of this. She's more worried about her next meal or what she's going to do when she gets out than what she has done. That also tells me this was not an accident. It's just a mere inconvenience for Casey. How can a CHILD EVER BE just an INCONVENIENCE to a parent that really loves them?

I don't even have to go into the evidence, which all points at her and no one else. It also screams premeditation and intentional.

I will say it again, DUCT TAPE IS NEVER ACCIDENTAL! Not used a weapon, not in covering up something - and I have never heard of someone covering up an accident with duct tape over he mouth of the accident victim. Why? Because no one the planet accepts duct tape as an exuse for covering up an accident. It just doesn't happen and it only makes a person look even more guilty. And there are other ways people attemp to cover up an accident that does not involve duct tape. Why would anyone with a normal brain even think about using duct tape to cover up an accident?

I am sorry this was so long, but I had to get this out. I am so sick and tired of those who can not or will not see this case for what it simply is: a spoiled, selfish, remorseless princess didn't ever love her child and got rid of her child because she couldn't handle not being the center of attention in her family. There is no vast conspiracy against a lying, stealing, nobody that had no ambition in life and was never going to be a productive member of society. I know we are all entitled to our own opinions, and I respect that. But all common sense and logic here screams premeditation and an intentional murder, not an accident, IMO.

I have no sympathy for Casey or her family. Those who still can, well, I guess you're bigger people than I am. And those who think someone else did this, I just don't get how you look at the same evidence as I am and come to such a totally different conclusion.

BBM I would accept it if the evidence led me in that direction. I also disagree with the assessment that Casey looked at Caylee as a sister etc.. If this were true she would have walked away and given Cindy custody IMO Her friends and own writings/texts/chats also dont flow with this theory. She very much so loved her daughter IMO.

 

[Astraea]

When you look at the pictures of Susan Smith's children, Darlie Routier's children, or many of the other children's pictures whose mothers have been convicted of murdering their babies, you also see "nothing but love". The fact is, photos are not an accurate reflection of what lies beneath the killer's true feelings nor motive for murder.

Your 2nd bold is simply not true.


Shirley Plesea very eloquently and accurately spelled out Casey's history of jealousy between the duo of Cindy and Casey, stating, "I wonder if Casey hated Cindy more than she loved Caylee."

Annie for certain, and I believe other friends of Casey's best to my memory, also speak about the history of jealousy between Cindy and Casey over Caylee.

George speaks of Casey's continual piggy bank thefts from Caylee's bank, "which was supposed to go toward her college fund". If you love your baby, you don't sit around on your lazy behind all day without a job while sneakingly draining your baby's college fund.

Lee speaks in his deposition about the fact that Casey "did nothing" for Caylee, it was all Cindy as the caregiver and provider for Caylee. It's easy to "love" your child from a distance, but a truly loving mother also gladly provides for her child both monetarily as well as physical tasks.

Cindy sought counseling due to the conflicts with Casey, and that certainly didn't happen because Casey was portraying herself as Mother of the Year, for Caylee. That's one reason Cindy said she would not follow the counselor's advice and "throw them both out"; she feared for Caylee's well-being solely under the supervision of Casey.

Cindy herself, Caylee's own "grandmother" speaks volumes about the jealousy, ungratefulness and spite from Casey, in Cindy's myspace letter she wrote to Casey. Cindy again fears for Caylee's well-being solely under the supervision of Casey by asking in that myspace letter, "Who is caring for the little angel?"

Jealousy, spite and laziness over your own flesh & blood does not equate to love, and plenty of people close to Casey have directly spoken of it.

In my opinion jealousy issues with your Mother, lying, stealing, immaturity, etc.. does NOT take away from Caseys LOVE for Caylee. Not one person has stated in any interviews that Casey EVER appeared to NOT love Caylee! I only made the comment about the pictures because so many here have said when THEY look at those pictures they DONT see love. I was trying to point out that "we see things as we are, not as they are". I personally see LOVE.

 

[notthatsmart]

Could you produce any comments from people who find that Baez is an "equal respected officer of the Court"? I have seen so many from his peers that ridicule him, declare him incompetent and obviously have NO respect for him - and they are not on the SA staff, that it seems to be the consensus of opinion in the legal community.

I can not produce any comments from people who find Jb to be an equal respected officer of the court. That was my opinion that he is. I feel if we treat all the officers with respect, we will have a better chance of getting to the whole truth for justice. It is just my opinion that the court should be held in a manner of respect. I can only wish that the Judge will not allow people to treat Jb with disrespect in court. To satisfiy some sleuthers, I will stop using the phrase equal respected officer of the court. If some wish to treat him with disrespect then go right ahead. I have had my say about it. IMO

 

[Astraea]

I'm fairly certain KC has stated Zanny told her she was "teaching her a lesson"...that Caylee would be returned by her b-day; that Caylee called her the same day she was arrested (remember the shoes); and that she couldn't tell what happened because she was protecting her family, Caylee, etc. her actions, behaviors, responses, writings, etc. are not that of someone wrongfully accused of killing her own child. What nails it for me is essentially her trying to justify Caylee being dead by asserting she is almost glad Caylee won't have to experience heartbreak, negativity, etc. IMO, that is a huge indicator of guilt.

I often feel this way (and have stated the same to others) about my own child who passed. My child died naturally...therefore "guilt" has nothing to do with it.

 

[Astraea]

Red text is mine. How about the quote from her own mother that Casey is a sociopath???

I dont disagree with Casey having mental issues. But not all those who do, kill intentionally. This would also further my belief that she DOES have mental issues that could contribute to her disassociation/mental break, if her child died accidentally.

I also just wanted to say that I am sorry if it seems like Im posting a lot in this thread "all in a row". I was out yesterday and didnt have a chance to respond.

 

[Astraea]

Shirley Plesea has not lied, nor has she had a history of lying to LE.

You're correct on the rest of the Anthony's though, they are all liars, but where the truth shows itself amongst their lies is when others also see Casey's jealousy over Caylee, when others have seen and taken note of Casey's hatred for Cindy and the spite that ensues thereafter.

In fact, the average reader of the documents can see it, as well as we can see it on the jail videos with the interaction between Casey and her parents. Casey's total unloving concern for Caylee is also very apparent. It is also very apparent in Casey's jail letters to RA. Casey not only speaks of the dissension with Cindy, but also worries much more about herself, worries much more about "missing lunch", than she worries about Caylee.

As for George's testimony to the Grand Jury, it is obvious he testified against his own daughter Casey simply based on his hours of statements to the FBI where he really lets loose on what a horrible daughter he has in Casey.

I also have issues with my Mother, (most girls do during certain times in their development. That in itself is well documented as being NORMAL).

As far as the letters to RA. I think it makes MORE sense that she would NOT discuss Caylee (or her case) with a stranger. I personally dont believe for one second that she and RA were as close as RA would like it to appear. The letters in themselves verify that for me, as she doent talk about her most personal feelings, only those mundane trivial things like food.

 

[Astraea]

The point is I call my mother, MOM. My children have names, not one of them is "SNOTHEAD". First thing pops into my head when I hear people call their children inappropriate names is "detachment". That's not up there as one of the qualification for "Mother of the Year". JMO

I think this once again goes to the point that we can not judge others based on ourselves. We must judge them based on their experiences. My Mother has MANY children. We have been called similar terms(sometimes out of love and endearment, sometimes not). You can be sure she LOVES us all, and we all love her!

 

[ZsaZsa]

I can not produce any comments from people who find Jb to be an equal respected officer of the court. That was my opinion that he is. I feel if we treat all the officers with respect, we will have a better chance of getting to the whole truth for justice. It is just my opinion that the court should be held in a manner of respect. I can only wish that the Judge will not allow people to treat Jb with disrespect in court. To satisfiy some sleuthers, I will stop using the phrase equal respected officer of the court. If some wish to treat him with disrespect then go right ahead. I have had my say about it. IMO

It is not disrespect to speak the truth about him.

 

[Astraea]

Well we can start with why KC went to JB's office everyday to work on her defense. KC, and her backpack went to JB's office to sell photo's of her dead daughter. I think the amount was $ 200,000.00 which is still unaccounted for in full. Oh yeah, and she did say how JB would order in lunch for her, and the crew. Can't wait to see the ledger showing where JB spent all that money.

Although this is somewhat off topic, I feel the need to address it here since you brought it up. I personally feel that those in the public who wanted the pictures of Caylee and used them (and still use them) should be JUST as accountable in regards to the so called "blood money" for Caylees pictures. After all, if they werent wanted so badly by the public, there would be no reason for anyone to pay for them!!! The media caters to the public. If they didnt, they wouldnt be in business! JMO

 

[ZsaZsa]

I also have issues with my Mother, (most girls do during certain times in their development. That in itself is well documented as being NORMAL).

As far as the letters to RA. I think it makes MORE sense that she would NOT discuss Caylee (or her case) with a stranger. I personally dont believe for one second that she and RA were as close as RA would like it to appear. The letters in themselves verify that for me, as she doent talk about her most personal feelings, only those mundane trivial things like food.

So when Casey says "the b***h knows how it feels now" is that a mundane thing to say about your Mother?
When her Mother describes her as 'an unfit mother' several times, is that describing someone who loved her child? She was a neglectful mother. She took her child into a man's bed with her- during a casual sexual relationship. What loving mother does that? She took her to parties where the adults were barely clothed and boozing. A loving mother? No one in my family would say that- certainly not my mother. She would say 'Actions speak louder than words'. KC's actions spoke volumes of how little she cared for 'that child'.