ACLU wants NOLA parish to forget Katrina memorial cross

[bykerladi]

the government doesn't have the right to assume that because they like the cross as a religious symbol, as do I personally, that all of these 129 people did.

You're missing the point. The names on the memorial are members of the PARISH that died. It is on PRIVATE land paid for by PRIVATE funds. The ACLU has NO evidence that the government has anything to do with it. Frankly, "Junior" is my new hero. I say "VOTE FOR JUNIOR FOR GOVERNOR" - Louisiana needs someone like him.

 

[Details]

Private land, private funds - I don't see any issue at all. The parish should be able to put up whatever it wants as a memorial.


However, I suspect there is more to the story.


Ah - there's part of it - I assumed a 'parish' was a church district - and it's not, it's a government district. So all of the people may or may not be christian, and the parish leaders who are organizing this are government officials. But, it is on their private time, private land, private money, so while this fact makes the lawsuit a touch more understandable, I still don't see the problem with this memorial.

 

[windovervocalcords]

Reader, I am pretty certain that someone goes to the ACLU and they determine whether they think there is a case.

bykerlady:
If the ACLU has no case, they lose. Unless you have read whatever they filed you have no idea whether they have evidence or not. I am not a constitutional scholar so I have no idea what evidence they need.

BTW The term "parish" in Louisiana is not the same as a religious parish. Is it?

Who are the 129 people? Would one of them be turning over in his grave if his name were posted on a cross?

DK we all have our pet conspiracy theories. Some are convinced ACLU is on a mission to wipe out Christians. Why is that? Are they inherently evil human beings? Are they all "godless" or do they sacrifice chickens or something?

Others have conspiracy theories that the Pat Robertsons of the world have an agenda to take over America and make it a Christian theocracy. (not only a Christian nation but THEIR kind of Christian nation.) Some fear those folks are just as extreme as an Islamic theocracy.

 

[narlacat]

Never one to back down, Parish President Henry "Junior" Rodriguez has a simple reply: "They can kiss my ass."

Nice one.
It's exactly that type of attitude that gives me the shits.
What if those 129 people don't want their names associated with that, were they all Christians?

 

[windovervocalcords]

Never one to back down, Parish President Henry "Junior" Rodriguez has a simple reply: "They can kiss my ass."

Nice one.
It's exactly that type of attitude that gives me the shits.
What if those 129 people don't want their names associated with that, were they all Christians?

narlacat--

Welcome to the USA, land of the free to be "Juniors". Cook from the ACLU said of junior's statement, "He'd be better off kissing the Constitution."

 

[shopper]

Sad that when someone (or a group) wants to do something nice as a memorial, it has to turn into a religious or political debate and beaten down. Why can't it be seen as a loving gesture as it was intended?

 

[windovervocalcords]

Sad that when someone (or a group) wants to do something nice as a memorial, it has to turn into a religious or political debate and beaten down. Why can't it be seen as a loving gesture as it was intended?

Yes, it is sad.

The intention is to honor those who died.

This week I was told that a photo I had on my desk could be percieved as sectarian and was asked to remove it.

I felt hurt and sad. Yet what was really hurt was my own sense of asserting MY view, MY individuality.

I have the photo there to remind me to see my co-workers and clients in their radiant purity instead of MY ordinary biases, MY likes and dislikes.

I took it home.

 

[narlacat]

narlacat--

Welcome to the USA, land of the free to be "Juniors". Cook from the ACLU said of junior's statement, "He'd be better off kissing the Constitution."

Yeah I saw that, good for him.
I went back and edited the word American from my post, but it's the truth isn't it?
That attitude pretty much sums up the attitude of the United States of America.
Yeah you can all hate me, but that is how you are seen in other countries eyes and quite frankly I'm sick of hearing about how great you think you are.
I'm sick of turning my telly on and seeing GW talking total crap....

Sorry, straight up today.

 

[Details]

Sad that when someone (or a group) wants to do something nice as a memorial, it has to turn into a religious or political debate and beaten down. Why can't it be seen as a loving gesture as it was intended?

There's two sides to that - sad when someone doing a memorial feels the need to make a religious or political point out of it as well.

May very well not be the case here - but just to point out that either side can have impure motives.

 

[shopper]

There's two sides to that - sad when someone doing a memorial feels the need to make a religious or political point out of it as well.

May very well not be the case here - but just to point out that either side can have impure motives.

Unless/until a surviving family member of one of the victims complains or says that their loved one wouldn't want to be associated with it, I don't see why perfect strangers would object.

 

[windovervocalcords]

There's two sides to that - sad when someone doing a memorial feels the need to make a religious or political point out of it as well.

May very well not be the case here - but just to point out that either side can have impure motives.

Excellent point.

Either side can have impure motives.

 

[windovervocalcords]

Unless/until a surviving family member of one of the victims complains or says that their loved one wouldn't want to be associated with it, I don't see why perfect strangers would object.

And that reflects a blind spot you have IMO. But it's ok we all have them.

 

[shopper]

And that reflects a blind spot you have IMO. But it's ok we all have them.

No disrespect but you don't know (anymore than I do) if any one of these victims family members has a problem with this. If it were a Muslim or Buddhist group doing this, I wonder if there would be any complaining or any ACLU getting involved.

If it were a member of my family, I wouldn't care if it was a Christian group, Muslim, Buddhist etc that wanted to honor my family, regardless of my or my loved ones beliefs. I would appreciate the gesture for what it was and not make a federal case out of it. I would know in my heart what beliefs my family member had, putting it on a different religions symbol wouldn't change that.

 

[windovervocalcords]

No disrespect but you don't know (anymore than I do) if any one of these victims family members has a problem with this. If it were a Muslim or Buddhist group doing this, I wonder if there would be any complaining or any ACLU getting involved.

If it were a member of my family, I wouldn't care if it was a Christian group, Muslim, Buddhist etc that wanted to honor my family, regardless of my or my loved ones beliefs. I would appreciate the gesture for what it was and not make a federal case out of it. I would know in my heart what beliefs my family member had, putting it on a different religions symbol wouldn't change that.

sorry shopper-

I did not mean any harm by my blind spot comment. What I meant was that you are saying that you do not understand how someone who is unrelated to the perished 129 would object.

That is a blind spot in that you do not know why they would object and you imply they have no right to object. That qualifies as a blind spot IMO. I am not judging you for having a blind spot. I have them too.

I usually appreciate it when someone points one out to me.

The symbol happens to be a cross.

If there was a large, prominent star of david or a stupa or an image of Mohammed there are people (Christians for example in the tradition of Pat Robertson) who would file law suits and worse especially if the government was endorsing it. ACLU would be there in that case too.

How wonderful you would not care if your loved ones name was on a memorial using other religious symbols. Good for you.

 

[Peter Hamilton]

well,I see the ACLU is sticking their nose where it doesn't belong...again-- -doesn't surprise me at all

 

[shopper]

sorry shopper-

I did not mean any harm by my blind spot comment. What I meant was that you are saying that you do not understand how someone who is unrelated to the perished 129 would object.

That is a blind spot in that you do not know why they would object and you imply they have no right to object. That qualifies as a blind spot IMO. I am not judging you for having a blind spot. I have them too.

I usually appreciate it when someone points one out to me.

The symbol happens to be a cross.

If there was a large, prominent star of david or a stupa or an image of Mohammed there are people (Christians for example in the tradition of Pat Robertson) who would file law suits and worse especially if the government was endorsing it. ACLU would be there in that case too.

How wonderful you would not care if your loved ones name was on a memorial using other religious symbols. Good for you.

No offense taken and I sure don't mean any either. I can stand to have my blind spots pointed out, how else would I be able to see another point of view!

I hope I was able to make my point to you and anyone else, that as horrific as Katrina was, I would be touched that a group of people cared enough to include my loved one. Another religion's symbols wouldn't change my beliefs, and I guess I feel that non-Christians shouldn't feel as though Christians are "out to get them" at every turn, lol. Especially when it comes to a private group spending their own money and time for a memorial.

 

[windovervocalcords]

No offense taken and I sure don't mean any either. I can stand to have my blind spots pointed out, how else would I be able to see another point of view!

I hope I was able to make my point to you and anyone else, that as horrific as Katrina was, I would be touched that a group of people cared enough to include my loved one. Another religion's symbols wouldn't change my beliefs, and I guess I feel that non-Christians shouldn't feel as though Christians are "out to get them" at every turn, lol. Especially when it comes to a private group spending their own money and time for a memorial.

As to "non-christians shouldn't feel as though Christians are out to get them"

1. People of other faiths do not reference themselves to Christianity. They are not "non-christians" to themselves.

2. People of other faiths and those who are not faith identified feel however they feel. When you tell them they should not feel the way they feel you are not accepting them as different from you in how they feel and the same as you in that they have feelings too.

3. I doubt anyone is having their beliefs challenged by someone else's symbol. The ACLU apparently sees this as a Constitutional issue. Do you support the Constitution and the Bill of Rights? Why not have an open mind?

4. Private groups spending their time and money sounds sensible. Does not sound like a Constitutional problem, yet you have the President of the Parish telling one group of its citizens to "kiss his ass." Certainly sounds as though he as an elected official has taken a stand in favor of this religious symbol being used as a memorial instead of seeking to find a way for the community to be united in an inclusive memorial symbol.

 

[shopper]

As to "non-christians shouldn't feel as though Christians are out to get them"

1. People of other faiths do not reference themselves to Christianity. They are not "non-christians" to themselves.

2. People of other faiths and those who are not faith identified feel however they feel. When you tell them they should not feel the way they feel you are not accepting them as different from you in how they feel and the same as you in that they have feelings too.

3. I doubt anyone is having their beliefs challenged by someone else's symbol. The ACLU apparently sees this as a Constitutional issue. Do you support the Constitution and the Bill of Rights? Why not have an open mind?

4. Private groups spending their time and money sounds sensible. Does not sound like a Constitutional problem, yet you have the President of the Parish telling one group of its citizens to "kiss his ass." Certainly sounds as though he as an elected official has taken a stand in favor of this religious symbol being used as a memorial instead of seeking to find a way for the community to be united in an inclusive memorial symbol.

It's on private land, funded privately through donations. If some people are offended by it, they don't have to go look at it. Simple solution.

 

[Texana]

Is there an ACLU rep/member from St. Bernard's Parish that objects?

With all due respect, windovervocalcords, have you ever been to New Orleans or Louisiania? Do you know these people?

I spent my summers in New Orleans. My husband grew up there. I taught Katrina refugee children and I saw daily the blank stare in their eyes. There are still days I wake up and think..New Orleans is gone. I don't care what they tell you about rebuilding, New Orleans is gone,, for both better and worse.

I live in a very culturally diverse city now. If something tragic happened to me, and my children's classmates' parents, and my neighbors, and my fellow shoppers at the grocery store put up a religious symbol memorializing me, then I tell you right now, I would respect that and appreciate that.

And if you do not think the people of Louisiania would feel the same, you are wrong.

The Constitution does not allow for state sponsored religion. There is no "state church" and the head of our government is not the titular head of the church as well. Taxes should not fund any displays (and no, I do not support vouchers for education, for just that reason.)

But the Founders never meant for religious symbols to be banned from public places as though they were shameful things.

If you tell me that the citizens protesting are from St. Bernard Parish, then I will withdraw my comments.

 

[BhamMama]

I spent my summers in New Orleans. My husband grew up there. I taught Katrina refugee children and I saw daily the blank stare in their eyes. There are still days I wake up and think..New Orleans is gone. I don't care what they tell you about rebuilding, New Orleans is gone,, for both better and worse.

If you tell me that the citizens protesting are from St. Bernard Parish, then I will withdraw my comments.

New Orleans isn't gone, it's battered but getting along slowly. There is tons of rebuilding going on, again, slowly. Don't give up on her though, she's fighting as are her people.

I don't think anyone there is fighting it. As we all know Louisiana has all kinds of religions weaving throughout, most of them Christian, of all denominations and sects. I seriously don't think that they will ever argue that's its wrong.

My Uncle didn't die in that parish and he wasn't Christian, but if someone wants to show that he is remembered with any symbol they choose, to me it's enough that they took the time out to remember and honor his memory. I had candles lit for him in a Catholic Church, had him on prayer lists at Baptist Churches, people of many faiths came and visited us while we were sitting shiva, and had many people of all faiths online praying for him. Why would I care 'how' the message gets there as long as it's sent with a pure heart full of caring? To me that's all this means, a way to show they cared. Would it make a difference if they shared the space with a Magen David and any other symbol of faith they might have been? To me, no, a show of respect is just that and nothing more. Doesn't stand for his religion in this instance.