AL - Karen Shahan, 53, murdered, Homewood, 23 July 2013 #2

  • #281
I don't know about Karen's church in particular but I've been horribly disappointed as an adult to realize that there truly is an epidemic of church leaders who routinely blame wives for their husbands shortcomings or sinfulness. I never believed it was true until it happened to me. It's not something modern churches advertise and unless you happen to be an abused wife seeking spiritual help you will never know that your very own church elders, ministers and especially men's ministries blame everything from emotional neglect and abuse to sexual betrayal and child abuse on the failure of the wife to properly serve her husband. The husband bears no responsibility at all for his own cruel attitudes and actions. I hope that Karen never encountered such lies from her church family but I would not be surprised if she did. It's hard to be married to a man who only needs a wife for his public image. MOO
 
  • #282
It seems to me that people are confusing this recent 3 year mission with a mission discussed in the May newsletter when the translator visited FBC and it was stated that Richard Shahan had plans to return to Kazakhstan again in the Fall for what would have been a brief (maybe 3 week) trip like his previous trips.

pastorpk described in a post on the first thread how this 3 year trip came about. It was not to be the same sort of brief mission like the ones he had previously taken. This was to be a total 'change in assignment' or job from First Church of Birmingham to Mission Bible International, Inc. According to pastorpk the assignment was proposed to Shahan by BMI, Inc.

See:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - AL - Pastor ARRESTED for Brutal slaying of wife Karen Shahan


It doesn't seem probable to me that a 3 year trip was a plan originally engineered by Richard prior to the murder. It seems more likely that a previously planned 3 week trip might have played into his original thinking. Maybe a three week trip he just didn't come back from was part of his original plan on how to escape from Karen, from Alabama, from FBC and from the Baptists.

Its actually impossible to know how he was feeling and what he was thinking based on the scant information we currently possess.

Good point. I'm still a bit confused on the Germany/Kazakhstan connection and how the work visa would be handled for a three year mission. I would think there is a big difference between a three week trip and a three year trip as far as visa requirements and how long those take to secure.
 
  • #283
I'm sure that the mission group he is serving under has that taken care of. I just did a little search and find it interesting that he is serving under Bible Mission International rather than the Foreign Mission Board of the Southern Baptists. There might be a reasonable explaination, but I find it interesting.
 
  • #284
Long excerpts w. BBM & UBM & S...SM, w. my ed's in red from US Dept of State gov't site http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/country/kazakhstan.html

A valid passport and visa are required. The Embassy of Kazakhstan in Washington, D.C., and the Consulate of Kazakhstan in New York issue visas.
[ed: contact info] ....

On June 1, 2013, Kazakhstan introduced a new visa classification regime that divides Kazakhstani visa categories into the following categories: diplomatic, service, investment, business, religious activities/ missionary, tourism, private travel, transit, family reunification, student, employment, humanitarian activities, and exit visas.

On August 1, 2013, the United States and Kazakhstan began issuing five-year multiple-entry visas on a reciprocal basis to those traveling to each country to qualified applicants engaging in diplomatic, official, business, touristic and information media purposes of travel. U.S. citizens applying for tourist and private visas are no longer required to obtain letters of invitation. More information can be found at the Embassy of Kazakhstan's website.
[ed: IDK if RS's intended activities would qualify for his obtaining a 5-yr Visa]
....
All travelers, even those simply transiting Kazakhstan, must obtain a Kazakhstani visa before entering the country.
[ed: I wonder if or when RS had obtained his Visa.]
....
U.S. citizens have been fined and deported from Kazakhstan for addressing a congregation, leading prayers, and performing religious music without proper religious worker registration.
In addition, representatives of faith-based non-governmental organizations are considered subject to the registration requirement even if their activities are not religious in nature. If in doubt whether registration is required, visitors should contact the Ministry of Justice office responsible for the area of Kazakhstan where they intend to engage in religious activities and request a written decision. Religious worker registration is only valid for the locality where it is granted and visitors must register in each jurisdiction where they wish to engage in religious activities.
[ed: had RS been in Kazakhstan before?]
....
Some HIV/AIDS restrictions exist for visitors to and foreign residents of Kazakhstan. Visitors applying for a work or residency permit, required for U.S. citizens who wish to spend more than 6 months in Kazakhstan, must submit negative HIV test results with their application to the Migration Police in the city where they intend to work or reside. The results must be less than three months old.
[ed: Would this be apply to RS, w the type of Visa/permit he wd have?]


ETA: The above US govt site re Kazakhstan says there are no currency restrictions on entry to or exit from the country.
Still possible the people entering w a given amt of currency must disclose it on a form. IDK.

Just thinking aloud. :seeya:
 
  • #285
Well, we will never really know all the scenarios that we are bringing up, and yes, it is very sad. I think of those who are closest to this drama, and who were totally caught off guard in all of this are the ones who are suffering the most...more than likely, RS's mother and sons, and the people who worked with both of them. But I think that because they are the ones who are grieving the most...then they are also the ones who cannot speak to any of this because it is so out of their range of relevance. They knew the pastor...they had no inkling of the other side of his life, according to what the e-mails are revealing. I believe that they truly do not know what to say or who to say it to. I can't even imagine what is being said in the home of his mother right now. It's got to be a real strain on her in all aspects. She is the one who declared that there was something...not right in the first place. :scared:

But we do not know what family and friends knew about RS' relationship or when they found out about it. And we haven't seen any of the emails so other than what was stated we still know nothing about who knew what and when. Was it even revealed when those emails were written? Were his emails released to the media?

What I'm stuck over is, he was leaving his wife and not the other way around. That is where the passion part of a crime would make sense towards a motive. He's a man, no children at home, no money to lose, he was free to just leave even if there were drama. You walk out, nothing to stop you. It was all coming out anyway. Karen was at work the day he left. If she wanted to tell her friends that she discovered RS' secret she could have done that. How would he know that she didn't already tell someone? A lot of "if's" in this case. Some things make sense towards a motive but there is more that does not.

A Grand Jury only hears one side of the argument so we will have to wait to see if it comes back with an indictment. jmo
 
  • #286
Excerpts from US Dept of State website about Germany
http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/country/germany.html

Currency restriction, either entry or exit = 10,000 Euros (or equivalent).
Per http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/convert/?Amount=27000&From=USD&To=EUR
at tdy's exchange rates ($1 US = .738 euros and 1 euro = $1.35 US)
the $27,000US = ~19,940 Euros.
RS's amt of currency would have exceeded the amt allowed into and out of Ger.

As someone posted upthread, re exiting US w $27,000 US, RS wd have bn req'ed to sign a form to disclose.
There is no limit on the amount of money that can be taken out of or brought into the United States. However, if a person or persons traveling together and filing a joint declaration (CBP Form 6059-B) have $10,000 or more in currency or negotiable monetary instruments, they must fill out a "Report of International Transportation of Currency and Monetary Instruments" FinCEN 105....
Source: https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/195


Visa for Germany
For tourist stay < 90 days, no Visa needed.
[ed: would RS be staying longer in Germany?]

For other types of travel/stay (like religious/missionary/faith based?) req'mts, I'll look further later.

In the meantime, excerpts from this page:
http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/country/germany.html
Germany is a party to the Schengen Agreement [ed: ~25 Eur countries]. Your U.S. passport should be valid at least three months beyond the planned date of departure. As a U.S. citizen, you may enter Germany for up to 90 days for tourist or business purposes without a visa. ...
see our Schengen fact sheet.
....
LGBT Rights: Germany welcomes multitudes of gay and lesbian visitors each year, especially to Berlin, an internationally famous rainbow destination. Civil unions are legal for same-sex couples; same-sex marriage is not available in Germany. The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) community is protected by federal anti-discrimination laws and LGBT Pride events are officially encouraged by most large city governments, including those in Berlin, Cologne, Hamburg, Frankfurt and Munich. For further information on LGBT travel, please read our Information for LGBT Travelers page.... [ed: BBM SBM]

Just wondering whether RS planned to more time in Ger. or Kaz. Or elsewhere?
(I posted a few hrs ago, re Visas for Kaz.)
 
  • #287
But we do not know what family and friends knew about RS' relationship or when they found out about it. And we haven't seen any of the emails so other than what was stated we still know nothing about who knew what and when. Was it even revealed when those emails were written? Were his emails released to the media?

What I'm stuck over is, he was leaving his wife and not the other way around. That is where the passion part of a crime would make sense towards a motive. He's a man, no children at home, no money to lose, he was free to just leave even if there were drama. You walk out, nothing to stop you. It was all coming out anyway. Karen was at work the day he left. If she wanted to tell her friends that she discovered RS' secret she could have done that. How would he know that she didn't already tell someone? A lot of "if's" in this case. Some things make sense towards a motive but there is more that does not.

A Grand Jury only hears one side of the argument so we will have to wait to see if it comes back with an indictment. jmo

I understand your questions here...so let's just turn the "triangle" to another facet...what if the "boyfriend" killed her? And they planned it together...and RS was doing what they had planned...he was at his sons' home. Just "what if?" Just a thought. Still, no messy divorce there, and RS is "innocent" of murder..." > conspiracy" would be another ember thrown into the fire here.
In an "affair" of any kind, the betrayed "spouse" becomes the unavoidable object that is totally unwanted, and in the mind of the betrayer, they must disappear, even in the minds of her family and friends...thus, the murder. No divorce. I know...it's crazy!! But to understand it all, we have to think like the "murderer"!
DTLJ
 
  • #288
I wish we knew if Karen planned on going with him on his mission. Maybe that was part of the reason itself--if she insisted on going! I can't imagine her wanting him to go alone for three years.

When the evidence comes out of the content of the 3,000 emails perhaps we will know if that is the case. So far, none of Karen's friends have spoken of her plans in this regard. In fact, other than the one friend's interview--nobody is speaking about Karen. I find this very sad!

Two good points are brought up here...

MaybeKaren DID want to go... And the reaction of RS led to some altercations?..

I agree that Karen has almost no voice in this case... She is the true victim... Yet she is being overshadowed by the notoriety of her husband...

and... I really wonder why there has been so little outpouring of prayers or thoughts for Karen... :(
 
  • #289
I've been away, but I see the revelations keep coming.

A boyfriend.

Well.

Less than no sympathy comes from me toward him--I've had the same fraud perpetrated on me in a relationship. All of my pity goes to Karen, who probably felt all those years that SHE was lacking, that SHE was doing something wrong, him gaslighting her like they all do, and for her last moments on this planet to be polluted by her gay husband killing her---well I know for sure she's in a better place.

I don't want to hear about the politics of such and I also don't want to hear about having sympathy for the poor closeted man--this is a so-called man who defrauded a woman for years and years.

The most unfortunate part is that the gay man in these situations gets all the support and cheering for being "authentic" blah blah....even when they're dragged out of the closet, and the straight spouse is left with nothing and nobody.

Where are his supporters now?
 
  • #290
Understood. :tears: The victims are often lost in the shuffle of arrests and media. That's why the mods like to make sure their names are in the subject line of our cases. It's the least we can do!

22948407_BG1.jpg

http://wbma.images.worldnow.com/images/22948407_BG1.jpg

Thanks, Kimster! :tyou:
 
  • #291
I've been away, but I see the revelations keep coming.

A boyfriend.

Well.

Less than no sympathy comes from me toward him--I've had the same fraud perpetrated on me in a relationship. All of my pity goes to Karen, who probably felt all those years that SHE was lacking, that SHE was doing something wrong, him gaslighting her like they all do, and for her last moments on this planet to be polluted by her gay husband killing her---well I know for sure she's in a better place.

I don't want to hear about the politics of such and I also don't want to hear about having sympathy for the poor closeted man--this is a so-called man who defrauded a woman for years and years.

The most unfortunate part is that the gay man in these situations gets all the support and cheering for being "authentic" blah blah....even when they're dragged out of the closet, and the straight spouse is left with nothing and nobody.

Where are his supporters now?


I too have no sympathy towards him too! He was married! and should have giving his all to that marriage (good or bad). Now if he didn't want to be married to Karen, then he should have given her a legal divorce, where she could fight for her rights to marital property!!! Planning a future marriage with a MALE or FEMALE before his current marriage, to Karen, was legally over
says it all to me. On another thought, I read where it states that RS was visiting his son at the time Karen was found dead. Was he there when she was murdered?? JMO
 
  • #292
I've been away, but I see the revelations keep coming.

A boyfriend.

Well.

Less than no sympathy comes from me toward him--I've had the same fraud perpetrated on me in a relationship. All of my pity goes to Karen, who probably felt all those years that SHE was lacking, that SHE was doing something wrong, him gaslighting her like they all do, and for her last moments on this planet to be polluted by her gay husband killing her---well I know for sure she's in a better place.

I don't want to hear about the politics of such and I also don't want to hear about having sympathy for the poor closeted man--this is a so-called man who defrauded a woman for years and years.

The most unfortunate part is that the gay man in these situations gets all the support and cheering for being "authentic" blah blah....even when they're dragged out of the closet, and the straight spouse is left with nothing and nobody.

Where are his supporters now?

How do you know she was not aware of all this? It is quite common for couples to have these sorts of relationships, but remain married for appearances, especially when they are older.

By all accounts she was very happy with her relationship, which would seem unlikely if this was going on and she did not know about it. There would be friction and conflict going on, even if she did not know why, and she would have told someone about that, or behaved in a depressed way. But there is nothing reported to suggest anything like that at all.
 
  • #293
We should also not exclude the possibility that she really was killed by a burglar. It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the police latched onto the pastor because of his double life and the scandalous nature of it. It is not surprising that he would have been less than forthcoming about that, not because of guilt, but because of judgemental attitudes from his neighbors. LE in turn would have interpreted that as him "hiding something" and drawn a line to the murder as that "something".
 
  • #294
How do you know she was not aware of all this? It is quite common for couples to have these sorts of relationships, but remain married for appearances, especially when they are older.

By all accounts she was very happy with her relationship, which would seem unlikely if this was going on and she did not know about it. There would be friction and conflict going on, even if she did not know why, and she would have told someone about that, or behaved in a depressed way. But there is nothing reported to suggest anything like that at all.

Tugela, with all due respect.......I don't think it is quite common for a man and wife to have a marriage where the husband is having an affair with another man (and wanting to marry him in Khazakistan) while married to the wife; and all the while being a pastor. Nope, not common at all.

And if the wife was a very private person who didn't talk about her personal business with co-workers or fellow parishners, we can not assume she was a happy person. We just don't know. She could've learned to live a life where her emotions and personal happiness were considered unimportant---and she may not have allowed herself to feel like she mattered at all anymore. She could've resigned herself to an acceptance of sorts and just kept a stiff upper lip or half a smile on her face. We just don't know.

moo
 
  • #295
If she was killed by multiple stab wounds, then the motive is very likely rage. To determine if the pastor is the one who could have such a motive, we would need to find a reason why he would be enraged with her.

Given the circumstances that we know it is hard to see how that could have come about.

You might expect that she would be enraged with him, not the other way around.

An alternative is that someone else was enraged with her for covering for him. This is religion we are talking about here, and people get fanatical about stuff like that, and they take none too kindly to what they see as a betrayal of their trust. You could envisage one of these folk finding out about him, and confronting Karen about it. An argument then ensuing, with Karen being supportive of him, and then the other person loosing their temper, stabbing her in rage. If there was no religion involved, then the crime was probably domestic, but there are lots of religious people about who take things far too seriously.
 
  • #296
My two cents -

After throwing this new "boyfriend scandal" and RS's future plans into the mix in this case, I now think the murder of his wife made things much harder on RS and think his defense will have a great argument for reasonable doubt...if the facts as we know them now are the actual facts, which I assume they are likely not, but whatever....

IF RS was already planning on going on a solo (no one else from his local church) mission trip for three years to Russia or wherever and these plans were known to everyone, as well as funded and endorsed by his church family, then he already had the perfect situation for him to escape his current life and start a brand new one with anonymity (theoretically). The murder of his wife only complicated things immensely since there would be an investigation, etc. Even if he was quickly eliminated as a suspect, the ongoing investigation would just present numerous problems for him.

If his wife is alive, he leaves to a grand sendoff by her and the church as he embarks on this three-year mission trip where he will be making personal sacrifices in order to do the Lord's work. So, this provides him with three years where he can still be in contact with everyone back home where he is considered to this great Christian man AND continue to receive their unquestioned financial support, as well as the "freedom" to plan and execute his ultimate end game. For someone who plans to begin a new life in a new country, whether if be with another man/woman or not, this three year "headstart" would be like a Christmas gift. When the time came for him to return home, he could simply disappear and never return to the US. He would be remembered as the missionary who probably met a tragic end in a dangerous, foreign land while doing the Lord's work. Of course this would cause his family great pain, but he's not concerned about his family's feelings or whether his actions hurt them anyway, so that part doesn't matter to him. Whether he actually planned on continuing a life with a new male or female partner doesn't really matter at that point since he had already made his "escape" from his "real life."

If his wife is murdered, all of these great plans are ruined. He can no longer make an "easy" escape, which means he can no longer do any of the other things listed above. Not only is the easy escape gone, but now every tiny detail of his personal life is going to be looked at and analyzed. His affair with a gay lover is guaranteed to be discovered pretty quickly, which not only gives him an apparent motive for the murder, but it also exposes the ONLY thing that can really "hurt" him in all aspects of his life. In this scenario, he would have had to assume he would lose pretty much everything he cared about and the potential to explore new options, even if he somehow escaped conviction for murder. It is possible he isn't the brightest bulb and didn't think this through as thoroughly as I. :blushing: If this was the case, I would think even with his compromised intelligence he would still figure out he should make any murder look as little like a murder and as much like an accident as possible so he would have the hope of it being ruled an accident/suicide/etc. However, this is not the way the murder occured. Based on the facts, if he did it, it was after she discovered his plans and confronted him about them. Whether she outright threatened to leave him or tell others, he felt she would ruin all of his careful planning and he killed her out of rage and fear.

Based on the above, I have concluded that either a) He didn't do it and has the worst luck possible b) he did it and is a complete moron c) he did it after she discovered his plans and it was in an unplanned rage. :takeabow:
But here's the problem.. The basis(Highlighted in Red by me) for which the possible conclusions are drawn upon is inaccurate..

I would agree that the above could possibly work well for RS's defense *IF* indeed there was a 3 year solo, overseas mission ALREADY in place PRIOR to Karen's murder.. *If* that were true I could agree that some of the above, possible conclusions make sense and could work in Richard Shahan's defense..

However that's just not the case.. As i.b.nora stated upthread there seems to be some confusion regarding Richard's future mission trips(spoken about PRIOR to Karen's murder)..and the 3 year overseas mission that came to fruition AFTER Karen's murder..

So, while I can see the point that if Richard had this 3 year plan already in the bag, so to speak, it *could possibly* look favorable in RS's defense..but with that not being accurate, IMO, I don't see anything about his "missions" working in his defense..jmo, tho.
 
  • #297
Tugela, with all due respect.......I don't think it is quite common for a man and wife to have a marriage where the husband is having an affair (and wanting to marry him in Khazakistan) while married to the wife; and all the while being a pastor. Nope, not common at all.

And if the wife was a very private person who didn't talk about her personal business with co-workers or fellow parishners, we can not assume she was a happy person. We just don't know.

moo

Not when the third party involves a heterosexual relationship, but that is not the case when it is a homosexual relationship, it is different. The reason being that the sexual element of the marriage would have long gone by that point. It is common for women to lose interest in intimacy later in life, and to focus on family and the day to day aspects of their lives. In this case I imagine that the church was the center of their lives, not sex. If their husband is seeing other women it becomes a direct threat to the wife, so they usually react badly when that happens. Much less so when that other party is another man. It works both ways btw.

My sister left her husband for another woman, but they continued a friendly relationship for many years after until her death. His new wife however, was extremely threatened by their relationship, even though it was platonic at that point, and would have nothing to do with my sister.
 
  • #298
Not when the third party involves a heterosexual relationship, but that is not the case when it is a homosexual relationship, it is different. The reason being that the sexual element of the marriage would have long gone by that point. It is common for women to lose interest in intimacy later in life, and to focus on family and the day to day aspects of their lives. In this case I imagine that the church was the center of their lives, not sex. If their husband is seeing other women it becomes a direct threat to the wife, so they usually react badly when that happens. Much less so when that other party is another man. It works both ways btw.

My sister left her husband for another woman, but they continued a friendly relationship for many years after until her death. His new wife however, was extremely threatened by their relationship, even though it was platonic at that point, and would have nothing to do with my sister.


Would Karen not have struggled with her husband being gay if it was the stance of her church to not support homosexuality? It would be interesting to know her particular church’s stance on the matter, as I think that her beliefs would probably be in line with her church’s beliefs.
 
  • #299
How do you know she was not aware of all this? It is quite common for couples to have these sorts of relationships, but remain married for appearances, especially when they are older.

By all accounts she was very happy with her relationship, which would seem unlikely if this was going on and she did not know about it. There would be friction and conflict going on, even if she did not know why, and she would have told someone about that, or behaved in a depressed way. But there is nothing reported to suggest anything like that at all.

If she was aware of it and had this "sort of relationship" she wouldn't be dead. And believe me, these men on the down low are extremely deceitful and most women DO NOT know until they come upon gay 🤬🤬🤬🤬, Craigslist ads or texts/calls from other men.

She was a church wife, subservient, the pastor's wife doesn't discuss her marital problems with ANYONE, not even family.
 
  • #300
Not when the third party involves a heterosexual relationship, but that is not the case when it is a homosexual relationship, it is different. The reason being that the sexual element of the marriage would have long gone by that point. It is common for women to lose interest in intimacy later in life, and to focus on family and the day to day aspects of their lives. In this case I imagine that the church was the center of their lives, not sex. If their husband is seeing other women it becomes a direct threat to the wife, so they usually react badly when that happens. Much less so when that other party is another man. It works both ways btw.

My sister left her husband for another woman, but they continued a friendly relationship for many years after until her death. His new wife however, was extremely threatened by their relationship, even though it was platonic at that point, and would have nothing to do with my sister.

A gay man on the down low and a lesbian who leaves her husband for another woman are two completely different things.

Gay men are perfectly capable of having sex with a woman, and without getting graphic the position is not usually missionary because they would have to look at their partner and they are usually fantasizing during it, and they sure aren't thinking about a woman.

Again, I am speaking from personal experience. It's the most heartbreaking thing to have wasted years on someone who was using you as a cover. It makes you question everything about the relationship, what was true and what wasn't, and it also makes you question your ability to judge all situations and people you deal with.

Also very different with the down low men is if they are discovered, they become extremely abusive and vindictive.

Again, my 100% pity is for Karen. God bless her having to live that nightmare.
 

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