AL - Karen Shahan, 53, murdered, Homewood, 23 July 2013 #2

  • #321
Just an FYI, and this might get deleted, but I just feel I need to say this. There are bad seeds in every profession, and the ministry is no different, and the good guys far outweigh the bad, the bad guys deeds just get far more attention than those of the good.
 
  • #322
JMO but it seems clear what the motive is here....he wants to move on with a new life. Divorce would profoundly affect his future reputation and ability for work. He couldn't have that and he didn't want a wife that he had any responsibility for or to. I'm sure he thought no one would ever suspect him.

In my particular experience, all was well and good UNTIL he found someone he wanted to be in a serious relationship with. Then, he exposed himself and when my reaction wasn't all supportive and understanding (he had the nerve to ask me to help him come out), he became extremely emotionally abusive and needlessly cruel.

While he was secretly conducting his other life, he was fine drifting along as things were. When he decided he wanted a relationship and found the person to have it with, his demeanor changed to being very desperate to get away and start his shiny gay life without tying up his fake straight one. Honestly, he acted like a schoolgirl pining away, it was like nothing I'd ever seen out of him before (of course why would I have seen it? I'm a woman).
 
  • #323
I don't think RS had any doubt that as far as some of the members of his church were concerned his reputation would soon suffer so it would not matter whether or not people found out in July or they found out in the Fall. Pastors tend to believe in forgiveness so I'm not thinking he was too concerned about that issue. It appears his plans may have already been made. It also may be why Karen did not go with him to Tennessee. We all thought that was strange. If his plan was to tell his family then there would be no reason to kill her. He would have been putting things in place before he left.

For me there is something missing in the motive part of this case. A husband as the main suspect is always a given in a case like this until proven otherwise. People always assume it's the husband that did it or had someone do it. Was there any DNA that has not been identified or was the DNA recovered only for Karen and Richard? Not sure that was mentioned.

jmo
 
  • #324
This case sure changed color and shape fast, didn't it. While many and perhaps most suspected the pastor, things lurched forward with the recently alleged gay marriage information. The state case right now, though, seems overwhelmingly based on loaded words and shock revelations. Any actual physical evidence? Innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law, I say. But whatever the case, let justice be done for Karen Shahan.
 
  • #325
In my particular experience, all was well and good UNTIL he found someone he wanted to be in a serious relationship with. Then, he exposed himself and when my reaction wasn't all supportive and understanding (he had the nerve to ask me to help him come out), he became extremely emotionally abusive and needlessly cruel.

While he was secretly conducting his other life, he was fine drifting along as things were. When he decided he wanted a relationship and found the person to have it with, his demeanor changed to being very desperate to get away and start his shiny gay life without tying up his fake straight one. Honestly, he acted like a schoolgirl pining away, it was like nothing I'd ever seen out of him before (of course why would I have seen it? I'm a woman).

I think this applies to most relationships when a person wants out but does not want to blow their cover. I have been there and I am sorry that you have been there too.
 
  • #326
I suspect that RS may have fantasized about the attention he would get, being the husband who us of a spouse who was brutally murdered. I think that he would have liked to have been treated with kid gloves, fussed over by women of the church bringing him food, admired by the men for his courage to put his faith in God and dedicate his life to missions. He pictured himself as a martyr. This would be much more appealing to him than admitting his lies and betrayal. It would probably guarantee extended financial support from the church for his mission work which was really just a cover for his escape.

MOO
 
  • #327
Take a look at the pic of him when he walked out of jail on bail. Check that swagger. This guy isn't ashamed, embarrassed, remorseful or in fear of the possibility of life in prison. This a just another challenge for a narcissistic evil criminal. He thinks he'll beat the charge and if he doesn't he'll be a rock star in prison with all of the other murderers, killers, perverts and con men.


Wow .. that photo is in stark contrast to the one taken soon after of him walking out of the building clutching onto his escort in the hi-vis jacket.

I wouldn't have thought that he would be unable to put on a mask of confidence in front of the waiting media. He seemed to manage well enough inside the building.

http://www.myfoxal.com/story/24484926/richard-shahan-out-on-100k-bond-under-house-arrest

This video shows the complete transformation from inside the sheriff's office where he doesn't think the cameras are on him to the perp walk outside, clinging on the arm of the guy in the yellow jacket,

http://www.abc3340.com/story/24483514/richard-shahan-expected-to-be-released-from-jail

Watch when the change in his demeanor from the first part, nodding at the various jail employees, to staring at the back of his attorney's head when the reporters first address him, to clutching the friend's jacket and attorney's arm as he has difficulty walking to the waiting vehicle.

Way upthread, pastorpk posted videos of the elaborate dramas RS put on for VBS. Anyone doubt his acting talent in the jail release video?
 
  • #328
I suspect that RS may have fantasized about the attention he would get, being the husband who us of a spouse who was brutally murdered. I think that he would have liked to have been treated with kid gloves, fussed over by women of the church bringing him food, admired by the men for his courage to put his faith in God and dedicate his life to missions. He pictured himself as a martyr. This would be much more appealing to him than admitting his lies and betrayal. It would probably guarantee extended financial support from the church for his mission work which was really just a cover for his escape.

MOO

Bingo---also, didn't he solicit the funds for the "mission trip" from people? I don't believe the church itself was funding it.
 
  • #329
Way upthread, pastorpk posted videos of the elaborate dramas RS put on for VBS. Anyone doubt his acting talent in the jail release video?

I completely forgot about those---thank you for remembering!

The video of him being released is certainly telling.
 
  • #330
In my particular experience, all was well and good UNTIL he found someone he wanted to be in a serious relationship with. Then, he exposed himself and when my reaction wasn't all supportive and understanding (he had the nerve to ask me to help him come out), he became extremely emotionally abusive and needlessly cruel.

While he was secretly conducting his other life, he was fine drifting along as things were. When he decided he wanted a relationship and found the person to have it with, his demeanor changed to being very desperate to get away and start his shiny gay life without tying up his fake straight one. Honestly, he acted like a schoolgirl pining away, it was like nothing I'd ever seen out of him before (of course why would I have seen it? I'm a woman).
I know...he was like a completely different person...with different values, different kind of demeanor, different behavior, like his whole psyche changed in front of you. I often heard of other women waking up to a completely different person, and I never believed that it was that stark of a contrast, but when my ex transformed into a completely different person, and looked at me as if I was the one who was crazy, well then, I know exactly what you are talking about. It's like something out of the twilight zone.
DTLJ
 
  • #331
As I recall, there was a series of psychological testing given to incoming students at the seminary where I went and Richard went to. I don't know why the testing was done, but if anyone knows...was it to find students who were going to be questionable in the ministry? I only met with a psychology professor for him to go over the results ( I passed), but does anyone know if these tests resulted in any kind of suspension or expulsion with other students? If course, I'm not asking for real names and real results, but does anyone know about these tests to answer my question? Sometimes, I really wonder if those tests were actually capable of pulling out any "red-flag" students, such as my ex-husband, who was a pastor too.
I know...I might be opening up a "can of worms", but I do know that those tests are out there. Anyone else have any thoughts?
DTLJ
 
  • #332
At this time, I'd also have to say his reputation was the trigger, she might not even have known about the boyfriend - but might have discovered 🤬🤬🤬🤬, some evidence of emails or texting going on with men, who knows.

She might have threatened to expose him to the church, his children, his family. At that time, since he wasn't going anywhere right away, exposure certainly would put a big damper on his plans.

I also would like to know where this boyfriend is - over there? Was he here when the murder occurred?
ITA that his reputation played a key role in this.. IMO much of it all revolves around EGO.. and IMO, his reputation is merely an extension of the ego..

Regarding Karen and looking at the *possibility* of her having discovered some/any/all of the secrets that her husband worked hard to keep concealed from everyone in THEIR lives(family, friends, church, coworkers, etc)..

I don't believe she'd just roll over and be a doormat as some people do in this type of very difficult situation..and I don't believe that she'd react at the other end of the spectrum as I believe so many of us would in the hurt, shock, and pain getting the best of us and our reacting by lashing out with threats of anything/everything one can think of..

I believe she would have confronted Richard..and I don't mean an aggressive confrontation, but rather just a confronting him with the information that she had learned, or in some way had come to know.. And I find it quite possible that she would have told him that this could not continue.. As in he could not continue living this life based upon deceit and lies, but rather that he would have to come clean with those to whom he owed that level of honesty(his children, family, and the people in/around his job of ministering).

Of course from most of our POVs this is all strictly an opinion in theorizing about the realistic *possibilities* of what/how Karen was murdered..and I guess, for me, personally, what's most important, and my main point is that I honestly believe that *IF* Karen had somehow come to learn about Richard's very deep well of lies, deceit, and dishonesty of epic proportions.. IMO, I honestly believe this kind woman would have faced it with a somewhat level head, and in a rational way compared to how so many of us would handle it. But..here is what my MAIN POINT IS...
I strongly believe that her kind, loving, and compassionate spirit would have still been murdered REGARDLESS.

*IF* she knew the truth, IMO, it truly mattered NOT..IMO it didn't matter "how" she reacted or handled the situation.. IMO, Richard didn't kill her due to her threatening to expose him..or tell the world of his deep well of deceit and lies.. IMO Richard killed her because he found it to be the most preferable solution to his problem, IMO. Just as someone else mentioned upthread--> Richard being coddled, and cared for as a distraught widow was WAAAAAAAAAAY more appealing to him than what was the other side of the proverbial coin..

<modsnip>

Again, I will reiterate, this has a whole helluva lot to do with EGO!.. Just as it did with Scott Peterson..Just as it sadly does with other "husbands" that we have come to know, that chose to murder their wife/significant other.. Richard Shahan is NOT some enigmatic mystery whose motive for slaughtering his wife remains elusive and unknown..:SMH:.. Richard Shahan, IMO, is a man who is selfish, self absorbed, and consumed with all things himself, and IMO, so, too does Richard have the EGO of a man whose true self revolves around his needs, his wants, his desires..and IMO, sadly it led to this beautiful, compassionate woman, Karen being killed..because for him it was the most preferable solution to the equation, IMO and JMOO..

(**and I just want to make certain to clarify that my colorful descriptors used in comparing the two sides of the proverbial coin(ie.remembered as a distraught widow..or..remembered as a gay ex-husband/minister) are purposely used to illustrate the extreme, stark contrast of the two..**)
 
  • #333
As I recall, there was a series of psychological testing given to incoming students at the seminary where I went and Richard went to. I don't know why the testing was done, but if anyone knows...was it to find students who were going to be questionable in the ministry? I only met with a psychology professor for him to go over the results ( I passed), but does anyone know if these tests resulted in any kind of suspension or expulsion with other students? If course, I'm not asking for real names and real results, but does anyone know about these tests to answer my question? Sometimes, I really wonder if those tests were actually capable of pulling out any "red-flag" students, such as my ex-husband, who was a pastor too.
I know...I might be opening up a "can of worms", but I do know that those tests are out there. Anyone else have any thoughts?
DTLJ
IMO....this is a very interesting line of thought...

I hope someone has answers for us...

JMO...
 
  • #334
Was that Pastor Matt Baker from Waco, Texas? If so, he almost got away with killing his wife, Kari. LE quickly ruled her death a suicide. Her family had to really fight for her.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/texas-pastor-matt-baker-convicted-wifes-2006-murder/story?id=11092046

No - it was Bill Guthrie. I think it was in 1999. Same thing, though - daughters fought to have LE look closer at what had been ruled a suicide. He put massive amounts of sleeping pills in his wife's chocolate milk then went to church for his "daily prayers." He had been having a long-term affair which had actually resulted in termination from his previous post. They were both married.

Guess we just never know about people and what they're doing behind closed doors.
 
  • #335
ITA that his reputation played a key role in this.. IMO much of it all revolves around EGO.. and IMO, his reputation is merely an extension of the ego..

Regarding Karen and looking at the *possibility* of her having discovered some/any/all of the secrets that her husband worked hard to keep concealed from everyone in THEIR lives(family, friends, church, coworkers, etc)..

I don't believe she'd just roll over and be a doormat as some people do in this type of very difficult situation..and I don't believe that she'd react at the other end of the spectrum as I believe so many of us would in the hurt, shock, and pain getting the best of us and our reacting by lashing out with threats of anything/everything one can think of..

I believe she would have confronted Richard..and I don't mean an aggressive confrontation, but rather just a confronting him with the information that she had learned, or in some way had come to know.. And I find it quite possible that she would have told him that this could not continue.. As in he could not continue living this life based upon deceit and lies, but rather that he would have to come clean with those to whom he owed that level of honesty(his children, family, and the people in/around his job of ministering).

Of course from most of our POVs this is all strictly an opinion in theorizing about the realistic *possibilities* of what/how Karen was murdered..and I guess, for me, personally, what's most important, and my main point is that I honestly believe that *IF* Karen had somehow come to learn about Richard's very deep well of lies, deceit, and dishonesty of epic proportions.. IMO, I honestly believe this kind woman would have faced it with a somewhat level head, and in a rational way compared to how so many of us would handle it. But..here is what my MAIN POINT IS...
I strongly believe that her kind, loving, and compassionate spirit would have still been murdered REGARDLESS.

*IF* she knew the truth, IMO, it truly mattered NOT..IMO it didn't matter "how" she reacted or handled the situation.. IMO, Richard didn't kill her due to her threatening to expose him..or tell the world of his deep well of deceit and lies.. IMO Richard killed her because he found it to be the most preferable solution to his problem, IMO. Just as someone else mentioned upthread--> Richard being coddled, and cared for as a distraught widow was WAAAAAAAAAAY more appealing to him than what was the other side of the proverbial coin..

<modsnip>

Again, I will reiterate, this has a whole helluva lot to do with EGO!.. Just as it did with Scott Peterson..Just as it sadly does with other "husbands" that we have come to know, that chose to murder their wife/significant other.. Richard Shahan is NOT some enigmatic mystery whose motive for slaughtering his wife remains elusive and unknown..:SMH:.. Richard Shahan, IMO, is a man who is selfish, self absorbed, and consumed with all things himself, and IMO, so, too does Richard have the EGO of a man whose true self revolves around his needs, his wants, his desires..and IMO, sadly it led to this beautiful, compassionate woman, Karen being killed..because for him it was the most preferable solution to the equation, IMO and JMOO..

(**and I just want to make certain to clarify that my colorful descriptors used in comparing the two sides of the proverbial coin(ie.remembered as a distraught widow..or..remembered as a gay ex-husband/minister) are purposely used to illustrate the extreme, stark contrast of the two..**)

As I recall Karen (about 30 years ago), she was very practical in her home arrangement and was an orgnanizer...a person that wouldn't sit down until everything was in place. The Hobby Lobby job was the perfect job for her from what I remember about her. Richard (I worked under him as an intern) really didn't challenge me and give me any real projects to do...I mainly had to look for things to do rather than really work under him...if truth be told. He had the title of Children's Pastor, but I wasn't too impressed with him because of his aloofness from his children's Sunday School staff. I taught the 5th grade.
 
  • #336
A gay man on the down low and a lesbian who leaves her husband for another woman are two completely different things.

Gay men are perfectly capable of having sex with a woman, and without getting graphic the position is not usually missionary because they would have to look at their partner and they are usually fantasizing during it, and they sure aren't thinking about a woman.

Again, I am speaking from personal experience. It's the most heartbreaking thing to have wasted years on someone who was using you as a cover. It makes you question everything about the relationship, what was true and what wasn't, and it also makes you question your ability to judge all situations and people you deal with.

Also very different with the down low men is if they are discovered, they become extremely abusive and vindictive.

Again, my 100% pity is for Karen. God bless her having to live that nightmare.

Of course it is the same thing. The fact that you refer to gay men as "down low" betrays your attitudes.

Your personal experience cannot be extrapolated to the general population. There are plenty of couples who live in relationships where one or the other (usually the male) is involved in homosexual or heterosexual relationship on the side, with the implicit consent of the spouse. Those relationships are usually long ones that have devolved into platonic marriages as it were. It is common for couples to lose interest in each other sexually as they get older, but remain married for reasons of family or finances, or because it is just plain convenient. Sometimes it is a mutual loss of interest, other times it is one half (usually the female) and then what is the other to do? So they reach a discrete accommodation, a sort of don't tell/don't ask situation. Hell, I know a number of married couples who even live in completely different countries most of the time, who get together every so often but otherwise live separate lives. And they get along just fine, it is the arrangement they have and it works for them.

The point I am making is that you can't make any assumptions about stuff like this, especially based on your personal experience or how you think you might react in that situation, because the world is a diverse and complex place where not everyone is like you.
 
  • #337
Of course it is the same thing. The fact that you refer to gay men as "down low" betrays your attitudes.

Your personal experience cannot be extrapolated to the general population. There are plenty of couples who live in relationships where one or the other (usually the male) is involved in homosexual or heterosexual relationship on the side, with the implicit consent of the spouse. Those relationships are usually long ones that have devolved into platonic marriages as it were. It is common for couples to lose interest in each other sexually as they get older, but remain married for reasons of family or finances, or because it is just plain convenient. Sometimes it is a mutual loss of interest, other times it is one half (usually the female) and then what is the other to do? So they reach a discrete accommodation, a sort of don't tell/don't ask situation. Hell, I know a number of married couples who even live in completely different countries most of the time, who get together every so often but otherwise live separate lives. And they get along just fine, it is the arrangement they have and it works for them.

The point I am making is that you can't make any assumptions about stuff like this, especially based on your personal experience or how you think you might react in that situation, because the world is a diverse and complex place where not everyone is like you.

My interpretation of this poster's reference to "down low" was the spouse being in a state of panic (or desperation, etc.) when they feel their persona is being revealed... It is IMO a description of the spouse's emotional state... Not a judgement of the lifestyle...

Therefore, I did not interpret the poster as making a statement that gay men are "down low"...

Additionally, this poster's personal experience is valuable to this case (though sad)... As it illustrates the evolution of a relationship from a seemingly loving relationship to one of great dissension due to one of the couple's leading a double life...

And... On this thread there has been provided many verified instances of murder cases where the motive for murder is one in which a pastor killed the spouse due to just what our poster describes above... The desperation of being revealed... And/or the self-centered desire to do away with obstacles that stand in the way of the desired outcome.... Which is to lead a life free of entanglement...

All JMO
 
  • #338
Wow .. that photo is in stark contrast to the one taken soon after of him walking out of the building clutching onto his escort in the hi-vis jacket.

I wouldn't have thought that he would be unable to put on a mask of confidence in front of the waiting media. He seemed to manage well enough inside the building.

http://www.myfoxal.com/story/24484926/richard-shahan-out-on-100k-bond-under-house-arrest

I agree that there is a remarkable change in Shahan's facial and body expressions from the photos taken inside the building ..to the photos taken outside (In front of the public and photographers)...

The expression originally looks confident... Almost smug...and changes to a pained, and physically/emotionally weakened state...

Very interesting... :waitasec:
 
  • #339
  • #340
I agree that there is a remarkable change in Shahan's facial and body expressions from the photos taken inside the building ..to the photos taken outside (In front of the public and photographers)...

The expression originally looks confident... Almost smug...and changes to a pained, and physically/emotionally weakened state...

Very interesting... :waitasec:

Actually I've seen the same look on celebrities faces when photographers try to shove a microphone in their face. The initials KK comes to mind. I don't think it is a very pleasant feeling. jmo
 

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