All About Chloroform#2

[LCoastMom]

I hope if this is the evidence provided at trial that the jurors are knowledgeable enough to ask the right questions and not just completely swamped by meaningless lab reports that are of no value to anyone except the person who wrote them.

I thought I had a fairly informed thought that the levels of chloroform in the car exceed that which was expected in relation to everything else found in the car, therefore at some time in the resent past chloroform was present in the trunk whether used as a cleaning agent post death or as a mechanism involved in the death we don't yet know. Now, I'm not so clear.

 

[Indigo]

I hope if this is the evidence provided at trial that the jurors are knowledgeable enough to ask the right questions and not just completely swamped by meaningless lab reports that are of no value to anyone except the person who wrote them.

I thought I had a fairly informed thought that the levels of chloroform in the car exceed that which was expected in relation to everything else found in the car, therefore at some time in the resent past chloroform was present in the trunk whether used as a cleaning agent post death or as a mechanism involved in the death we don't yet know. Now, I'm not so clear.

Fortunately, Arpad Vass is on the State Witness List. The jury won't have to decipher the chloroform analysis for themselves.

 

[Lanie]

I hope if this is the evidence provided at trial that the jurors are knowledgeable enough to ask the right questions and not just completely swamped by meaningless lab reports that are of no value to anyone except the person who wrote them.

I thought I had a fairly informed thought that the levels of chloroform in the car exceed that which was expected in relation to everything else found in the car, therefore at some time in the resent past chloroform was present in the trunk whether used as a cleaning agent post death or as a mechanism involved in the death we don't yet know. Now, I'm not so clear.

Bolded by me.

I don't feel these lab reports are meaningless at all. They are preliminary reports. Also, they were done because LE felt a dead child had been in the trunk of Casey's car. IMO, LE didn't know diddlysquat about chloroform other than what came up on the computer searches, and it's likely they didn't think much about that, as there were other searches for bizarre things. The lab reports were to try to verify a human decompositional event had taken place in the trunk of the car. They did verify that, even though you can look back through this site and see plenty of arguments saying otherwise, then Caylee's body was found. JMO, as I wasn't in the lab when these tests were taking place, but the tests were run to prove decomp, not chloroform. As chloroform is one of the markers of decomp, it was tested for, and it was noted in one area of the report as unusually high for a human decompositional event. (paraphrased, there is a link to this doc. higher up in this thread.) Again, JMO, but these reports are sketchy so they could be given back to LE so they could proceed with the results. I would guess more testing has/is being done, and at least by the trial (though I wish sooner) we will hear all the minute details we are wishing we had now.
Lanie

 

[Indigo]

Bolded by me.

I don't feel these lab reports are meaningless at all. They are preliminary reports. Also, they were done because LE felt a dead child had been in the trunk of Casey's car. IMO, LE didn't know diddlysquat about chloroform other than what came up on the computer searches, and it's likely they didn't think much about that, as there were other searches for bizarre things. The lab reports were to try to verify a human decompositional event had taken place in the trunk of the car. They did verify that, even though you can look back through this site and see plenty of arguments saying otherwise, then Caylee's body was found. JMO, as I wasn't in the lab when these tests were taking place, but the tests were run to prove decomp, not chloroform. As chloroform is one of the markers of decomp, it was tested for, and it was noted in one area of the report as unusually high for a human decompositional event. (paraphrased, there is a link to this doc. higher up in this thread.) Again, JMO, but these reports are sketchy so they could be given back to LE so they could proceed with the results. I would guess more testing has/is being done, and at least by the trial (though I wish sooner) we will hear all the minute details we are wishing we had now.
Lanie

Hi, Lanie. Fortunately, due to Vass finding elevated levels of chloroform, more testing was done. Chloroform was confirmed...



From Affidavit for Search Warrant:

"Michael Rickenbach, a chemical analyst for the FBI laboratory, conducted test of the trunk liner of the defendant's car for evidence of chloroform. This was a result of Dr. Vass finding the chemical in his tests. Michael confirmed that residues of chloroform were identified within the spare tire cover (Q22, Q23, Q44) and residues consistent with chloroform were detected within specimens the trunk liner (Q24, Q25). This report is dated August 8, 2008."

p 3168

 

[Bev]

Indigo, Rickebach's report confirms the findings of Vass's laboratory, it doesn't go to the levels at all.

p.s. Let me add this - nowhere in that report does it say that a HDE took place, the findings of the lab are CONSISTENT with a hde.

 

[Rumpole]

Bumping this up ...

He is talking about the production of chloroform through chemical reaction in the trunk, and not about the pre-existence of chloroform as a constituent of the product, either dryer sheet or cleaning solution.

Also, I have trouble with the use of the phrase "far higher." There is no definition. Is it 50% higher or 5 times higher? No indication of this in the report.

Not trying to say KC definitely did not use chloroform, but right now as I read it the forensic report is too vague to draw a conclusion that eliminates other possibilities. I am quite concerned that the report is too easy to refute.

I went to find that email yesterday. Unfortunately the original email is now paraphrased.

I feel a little out of my depth critisising a recognised "Expert", hence I did preface my remarks by conceding he could be misquoted or taken out of cntext.

However I still do not agree with what I see attributed to him.

Where DrF says in relation to chloroform: "those reults could not come from cleaning products" he seems to me to be talking about the hypothetical situation of "saturated with "vapourized" chloroform" whatever all that means. That is not the situation in this case.
Once again I write: I am CERTAIN that some chloroform could be formed by the mixing of cleaning products. We have all the proof we need for that, because it is esentially the recipe for Manufacturing chloroform!

It is hard to fathom what the DrF reference about "vapour knocking out the driver of the car" is about at all? Once again this seems to be in responce to the NG fantasy about a car trunk saturated with chloroform. That is not the reality in this case. Even if "saturation" (Meaning lots in this case) was the state in the trunk, the likely effect on the driver of the car would depend primarily on the seal between trunk and car compartment. We know nothing definite there.

Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes. He seems to explaining things in relation to a a car trunk (and presumably entire car) "Saturated with Chloroform. Apart from within NG verbage, this never was the case and nobody other than NG claimed it.

 

[Bev]

Hercule, I agree that some cleaning products could form chloroform. You're right about that. The problem I have with this report is that it really doesn't tell us anything - there are no comparisons offered that would make the chloroform report meaningful.

I keep going over and over this - if she used bleach to clean the car and sprayed with Febreese, there are the ingredients right there to make chloroform.

 

[Rumpole]

Hercule, I agree that some cleaning products could form chloroform. You're right about that. The problem I have with this report is that it really doesn't tell us anything - there are no comparisons offered that would make the chloroform report meaningful.

I keep going over and over this - if she used bleach to clean the car and sprayed with Febreese, there are the ingredients right there to make chloroform.

Yes, thank you.

I agree, the report to date does not supply details.

All I am trying to do is tamp down the reaction that the mere use of the word "CHLOROFORM" means it MUST have been used as a drug by KC.
I am just pre warning there are other, very good explanations. I am not even demanding any particular explanation is the reality, yet.

 

[Hot Dogs]

if she used bleach to clean the car...

If somebody poured bleach on the fabric trunk mat, would the fibers and dyes become oxidized in any obvious way?

 

[Indigo]

Again...from the affidavit:

"Michael Rickenbach, a chemical analyst for the FBI laboratory, conducted test of the trunk liner of the defendant's car for evidence of chloroform. This was a result of Dr. Vass finding the chemical in his tests. Michael confirmed that residues of chloroform were identified within the spare tire cover (Q22, Q23, Q44) and residues consistent with chloroform were detected within specimens the trunk liner (Q24, Q25). This report is dated August 8, 2008."

p. 3168



Hi, Bev...the Affidivit for Search Warrant is specific. Rickenbach's test was done "as a result" of Dr. Vass finding "the chemical" in his tests. You're right--we don't know the levels, but these levels DID prompt a second test--specific for "the chemical," chloroform. The result: residues consistent with chloroform were found. IMO, there can be no other explanation for the second test results to be included in this affidavit.

LE continued to search for chemicals used in making chloroform, and containers used to mix chemicals. They are not looking for chloroform produced as a result of human decomposition. JMO.

It's not lost on me that this is exactly what will happen in the courtroom. A battle of words...

 

[Rumpole]

If somebody poured bleach on the fabric trunk mat, would the fibers and dyes become oxidized in any obvious way?

"Bleach" was by way of example. Any product containing some chlorine could be substituted. Perhaps some of the "Diaper Cleaners" I don't know exactly what cleaning products were available.

 

[Bev]

Well, I don't know if any product containing bleach would fit the bill. It would seem to me that it would have to be a substantial amount of chlorine and acetone/alcohol. I considered the pool shock scenario too, and it might be a possilbity, I just don't know.

 

[Rumpole]

Well, I don't know if any product containing bleach would fit the bill. It would seem to me that it would have to be a substantial amount of chlorine and acetone/alcohol. I considered the pool shock scenario too, and it might be a possilbity, I just don't know.

Except that, as you say, we don't know what amount of chloroform we are talking about.
Raised level could still be a ppm increase, requiring relatively little chloroform to have been produced, and so very little of the initial reagents?

And to repeat, I am just saying what could be an explanation, not what I know actually happened.

 

[Lanie]

Hi, Lanie. Fortunately, due to Vass finding elevated levels of chloroform, more testing was done. Chloroform was confirmed...



From Affidavit for Search Warrant:




p 3168

Thanks for clarifying what I said. It just further illustrates the chloroform found was not at a level consistent with what is usually found with human decomposition.
Lanie

 

[Lanie]

What I have learned about chloroform in the last hour. Purposely using laymen's terms.

The molecular structure of chloroform is 1 hydrogen, 1 carbon, and 3 chlorines. Acetone is 1 oxygen, 3 carbons, and 6 hydrogens. So chloroform is a matter of combining, not simply a molecule of acetone stuck to a molecule of chlorine.

Homemade chloroform can be made by combining acetone and chlorine, along with water. No alcohol needed. This is a crude, but effective way to do it. After the initial reaction, it is possible to heat up the mixture to get more of the acetone to react. It is still probable there would be acetone left, but it would be on the top, and the chloroform would be on the bottom of the container. It might be possible to make enough quantity of chloroform to pour off everything on top, and some to most of the chloroform, until all you are left with is the chloroform. (Don't know why someone would bother, though.)

Commercially made chloroform, however, is a different story. It is made by combining chlorinated lime, water, and alcohol. No acetone involved. It is put through a purifying process. The U.S. Pharmacopoeia has a process lined out for purification, and what results is designated by the U.S. Pharmacopoeia as Purified Chloroform. (I can't speak for the expert, but IMO it is possible he dumbed down his findings since he was on the NG show, vs. a panel of his peers, therefore, the term "pure chloroform" vs. Purified Chloroform.)

I also found several references to oral ingestion of chloroform, along with several references to chloroform being very sweet. One reference stated chloroform was roughly 40 times sweeter than sugar. Did not, however, find any reference that it tastes good.

Lanie

 

[Indigo]

What I have learned about chloroform in the last hour. Purposely using laymen's terms.

The molecular structure of chloroform is 1 hydrogen, 1 carbon, and 3 chlorines. Acetone is 1 oxygen, 3 carbons, and 6 hydrogens. So chloroform is a matter of combining, not simply a molecule of acetone stuck to a molecule of chlorine.

Homemade chloroform can be made by combining acetone and chlorine, along with water. No alcohol needed. This is a crude, but effective way to do it. After the initial reaction, it is possible to heat up the mixture to get more of the acetone to react. It is still probable there would be acetone left, but it would be on the top, and the chloroform would be on the bottom of the container. It might be possible to make enough quantity of chloroform to pour off everything on top, and some to most of the chloroform, until all you are left with is the chloroform. (Don't know why someone would bother, though.)

Commercially made chloroform, however, is a different story. It is made by combining chlorinated lime, water, and alcohol. No acetone involved. It is put through a purifying process. The U.S. Pharmacopoeia has a process lined out for purification, and what results is designated by the U.S. Pharmacopoeia as Purified Chloroform. (I can't speak for the expert, but IMO it is possible he dumbed down his findings since he was on the NG show, vs. a panel of his peers, therefore, the term "pure chloroform" vs. Purified Chloroform.)

I also found several references to oral ingestion of chloroform, along with several references to chloroform being very sweet. One reference stated chloroform was roughly 40 times sweeter than sugar. Did not, however, find any reference that it tastes good.

Lanie

Thanks for the research, Lanie!

 

[Rumpole]

What I have learned about chloroform in the last hour. Purposely using laymen's terms.

The molecular structure of chloroform is 1 hydrogen, 1 carbon, and 3 chlorines. Acetone is 1 oxygen, 3 carbons, and 6 hydrogens. So chloroform is a matter of combining, not simply a molecule of acetone stuck to a molecule of chlorine.

Homemade chloroform can be made by combining acetone and chlorine, along with water. No alcohol needed. This is a crude, but effective way to do it. After the initial reaction, it is possible to heat up the mixture to get more of the acetone to react. It is still probable there would be acetone left, but it would be on the top, and the chloroform would be on the bottom of the container. It might be possible to make enough quantity of chloroform to pour off everything on top, and some to most of the chloroform, until all you are left with is the chloroform. (Don't know why someone would bother, though.)

Commercially made chloroform, however, is a different story. It is made by combining chlorinated lime, water, and alcohol. No acetone involved. It is put through a purifying process. The U.S. Pharmacopoeia has a process lined out for purification, and what results is designated by the U.S. Pharmacopoeia as Purified Chloroform. (I can't speak for the expert, but IMO it is possible he dumbed down his findings since he was on the NG show, vs. a panel of his peers, therefore, the term "pure chloroform" vs. Purified Chloroform.)

I also found several references to oral ingestion of chloroform, along with several references to chloroform being very sweet. One reference stated chloroform was roughly 40 times sweeter than sugar. Did not, however, find any reference that it tastes good.

Lanie

Also, Lanie did you know chloroform was adictive?

Well at least dicussing it is.

From what you have read do you still think KC made it either regularly, or as a one off to use in a detailed plan? Seriously do you think that happened?
Personally I think making a cup of instant coffee was the limit of her chemical brewing.

 

[Indigo]

Also, Lanie did you know chloroform was adictive?

Well at least dicussing it is.

From what you have read do you still think KC made it either regularly, or as a one off to use in a detailed plan? Seriously do you think that happened?
Personally I think making a cup of instant coffee was the limit of her chemical brewing.

Hi,Hercule. I would love to think that Casey is just a dope. Yet, look how long she had everyone looking away from the real disposal site. She talked about Blanchard Park and Universal...look away. She had everyone following pings. And long enough so that important forensics were lost. Sheer luck? Maybe.

I believe that Casey could have made the chloroform if she chose to. The excitement of doing something of this sort might have appealed to her dark side. Or maybe she stole it. Who knows?

One thing that seems the least likely: That any chemical reaction took place in the trunk of the car. Uncontrolled mixing of these chemicals can be disasterous--even causing explosions. That must be why Flowers is so sure it didn't happen by mistake.

 

[Rumpole]

Hi,Hercule. I would love to think that Casey is just a dope. Yet, look how long she had everyone looking away from the real disposal site. She talked about Blanchard Park and Universal...look away. She had everyone following pings. And long enough so that important forensics were lost. Sheer luck? Maybe.

I believe that Casey could have made the chloroform if she chose to. The excitement of doing something of this sort might have appealed to her dark side. Or maybe she stole it. Who knows?

One thing that seems the least likely: That any chemical reaction took place in the trunk of the car. Uncontrolled mixing of these chemicals can be disasterous--even causing explosions. That must be why Flowers is so sure it didn't happen by mistake.

My aproach is to base my assesment on hard facts, but we all have to fill in the huge gaps with guesses. The best we can do is bring our own experiences. I do not know KC but I know people with that type of lifestyle, experience, schooling etc and I would put money on the fact that she did not mix up chloroform.
She actually dumped the body in a nearby sstupid place - as I would expect. It was dumb luck it didn't get found within the first 20mins of searching! Just down the road where people dump rubbish anyway is where I would look first! The fact that I back and support LE to the max precludes me from saying too much more. But really?

The whole chloroform interest stems from the internet search! Read JWG's breakdown. It was hardly a "Search" and lasted, but seconds, perhaps minutes.
I am not excluding a possibility of chloroform and applaud LE for checking. But there is NO EVIDENCE yet.

 

[fortytwo]

Also, Lanie did you know chloroform was adictive?

Well at least dicussing it is.

From what you have read do you still think KC made it either regularly, or as a one off to use in a detailed plan? Seriously do you think that happened?
Personally I think making a cup of instant coffee was the limit of her chemical brewing.

I think that buying a cup would be a stretch, much less making it.

Unless she used someone else's money.