All About Chloroform#2

[BondJamesBond]

I'm curious...

IIRC, the forensics reported disposable diaper or pull-up located w/ the remains. As Caylee was in the process of potty training she may have been wearing one @ t.o.d.

OK...I know the remains appear to have been submerged in water...so...dilution is a key consideration...still...

...might the absorbent material have retained evidence of Rx, chloroform, use etc. from post-mortem evacuation????

Just a quick google yields plenty of info on mat'ls used in diapers:

"The polymer is made of fine particles of an acrylic acid derivative, such as sodium acrylate, potassium acrylate, or an alkyl acrylate. These polymeric particles act as tiny sponges that retain many times their weight in water. Microscopically these polymer molecules resemble long chains or ropes. Portions of these chemical "ropes" are designed to interact with water molecules. Other parts of the polymer have the ability to chemically link with different polymer molecules in a process known as cross linking. When a large number of these polymeric chains are cross linked, they form a gel network that is not water soluble but that can absorb vast amounts of water. Polymers with this ability are referred to as hydrogels, superabsorbents, or hydrocolloids. Depending on the degree of cross linking, the strength of the gel network can be varied. This is an important property because gel strength is related to the tendency of the polymer to deform or flow under stress. If the strength is too high the polymer will not retain enough water. If it too low the polymer will deform too easily, and the outermost particles in the pad will absorb water too quickly, forming a gel that blocks water from reaching the inner pad particles. This problem, known as gel blocking, can be overcome by dispersing wood pulp fibers throughout the polymer matrix. These wood fibers act as thousands of tiny straws which suck up water faster and disperse it through the matrix more efficiently to avoid gel blocking. Manufacturers have optimized the combinations of polymer and fibrous material to yield the most efficient absorbency possible."

http://www.madehow.com/Volume-3/Disposable-Diaper.html

 

[Indigo]

An expert opinion fwiw:

<snipped>

Chemist Jeff Flowers, who has testified in state and federal court as an expert, said positive tests for vaporized chloroform mean those results could not have come from anything else -- not cleaning products, not human body fluids or a mixture of anything else.

"I think it's as significant or more significant than finding decomposition products," Flowers said.

Flowers said it had to have been pure chloroform, WESH 2's Bob Kealing reported.

"It could not have come from a chemical reaction in the trunk. It's impossible," Flowers said.

Flowers said chloroform can be found in very small amounts in everyday liquid cleaning products. But, he said, chloroform cannot vaporize or get in to the air unless large amounts of it are present.

http://www.wesh.com/news/17397494/detail.html

 

[Hot Dogs]

I'm curious...

IIRC, the forensics reported disposable diaper or pull-up located w/ the remains.

No mention of diapers or pull-ups with the remains.

 

[BondJamesBond]

An expert opinion fwiw:

<snipped>

Chemist Jeff Flowers, who has testified in state and federal court as an expert, said positive tests for vaporized chloroform mean those results could not have come from anything else -- not cleaning products, not human body fluids or a mixture of anything else.

"I think it's as significant or more significant than finding decomposition products," Flowers said.

Flowers said it had to have been pure chloroform, WESH 2's Bob Kealing reported.

"It could not have come from a chemical reaction in the trunk. It's impossible," Flowers said.

Flowers said chloroform can be found in very small amounts in everyday liquid cleaning products. But, he said, chloroform cannot vaporize or get in to the air unless large amounts of it are present.

http://www.wesh.com/news/17397494/detail.html

Have ppm levels of voc's been included in the released forensics?

 

[BondJamesBond]

No mention of diapers or pull-ups with the remains.

Hey, thanks, Hot Dogs. I must've imagined it...I thought LE was trying to match some diapers/pull-up found @ the scene in the last search @ G&C's :bang:

I should post less & sleep more

 

[Hot Dogs]

The clothing found with the remains is intriguing because there is no mention of diapers or pull-ups. Either she died with only shirt and shorts, or her clothing was altered after death. Some think she may have drowned in the pool (accidently or intentionally). A swimsuit could have been removed and shirt/shorts put on her. I don't really know what to think.

Anyway, I don't think there's any reason why clothing could not have been changed after death - for whatever reasons.

 

[TSPnc]

WHERE were Caylee's shoes? Sorry i know this is about chloroform but when u guys posted this it just came to me.....

 

[JWG]

Have ppm levels of voc's been included in the released forensics?

No, none have been released.

Not sure what they mean by "pure" chloroform. Chloroform is chloroform. The analysis they did found over 50 other compounds in the air sample along with the chloroform, so the air sample was not pure, but the constituent compounds were what they were.

Speculation on the part of the chemist...probably did not even read the report in its entirety, IMHO.

 

[Lanie]

Hey, thanks, Hot Dogs. I must've imagined it...I thought LE was trying to match some diapers/pull-up found @ the scene in the last search @ G&C's :bang:

I should post less & sleep more

FWIW, I'm pretty sure they said pullup or diaper with a flower design on it was found.
Lanie

 

[BondJamesBond]

No, none have been released.

Not sure what they mean by "pure" chloroform. Chloroform is chloroform. The analysis they did found over 50 other compounds in the air sample along with the chloroform, so the air sample was not pure, but the constituent compounds were what they were.

Speculation on the part of the chemist...probably did not even read the report in its entirety, IMHO.

My guess is that he means the ppm level in vapor far exceeds that which would be achieved by the concentration of chloroform in common liquid/solid sources.

My memory is, a bit dusty, but, knowing the (a) the concentration of species in the vapor, and (b) the vapor pressures of those species, using Antoinne's Law we can calculate the concentration of those species in their source liquid/solid.

So....relative to all of the other volatile organic compounds (voc's) in the vapor space of that trunk, you can calculate what the concentration of chloroform would be if it came from something like a spot remover that had, say, 10% chloroform in it. If the measured relative concentration in the vapor space far exceeds what would be calculated from this...then, the source of chloroform had to be higher in concentration too.

Additionally, there should be a byproduct profile of other compounds in the vapor that was measured depending on the source of the chloroform - that would be telling, IMHO. Reagent grade chloroform vs. say, chlorform in pesticides or spot removers would have different impurities removed from their production to achieve higher purity. Perhaps he is seeing this info to in drawing his conclusion.

 

[fortytwo]

I'm curious...

IIRC, the forensics reported disposable diaper or pull-up located w/ the remains.

(snip

No mention of diapers or pull-ups with the remains.

Hey, thanks, Hot Dogs. I must've imagined it...I thought LE was trying to match some diapers/pull-up found @ the scene in the last search @ G&C's :bang:

I should post less & sleep more

The clothing found with the remains is intriguing because there is no mention of diapers or pull-ups. Either she died with only shirt and shorts, or her clothing was altered after death. Some think she may have drowned in the pool (accidently or intentionally). A swimsuit could have been removed and shirt/shorts put on her. I don't really know what to think.

(snip)

FWIW, I'm pretty sure they said pullup or diaper with a flower design on it was found.
Lanie

I still believe that this and other assertions (knife, backback found with remains) are from WFTV's erroneous initial report on the day of the 1.21.09 doc dump where they misread the CSI forensics report and jumped to a conclusion which has since been repeated into "fact".

FWIW I emailed Kathi B. @ WFTV asking her about this possibility and have not received a reply. The original article is still on their webpage.

 

[TSPnc]

Chloroform is found in ALOT of things.....like mattresses i didn't know that ...Also it is found in certain solvent based adhesives and nail polish remover....

 

[BondJamesBond]

(snip

I still believe that this and other assertions (knife, backback found with remains) are from WFTV's erroneous initial report on the day of the 1.21.09 doc dump where they misread the CSI forensics report and jumped to a conclusion which has since been repeated into "fact".

FWIW I emailed Kathy B. @ WFTV asking her about this possibility and have not received a reply. The original article is still on their webpage.

Hey, fortytwo. Thanks for going the extra mile. If/when you get a response that would be a good one for the "Mythbusters..." thread. :thumb:

 

[BondJamesBond]

Chloroform is found in ALOT of things.....like mattresses i didn't know that ...Also it is found in certain solvent based adhesives and nail polish remover....

...and in your hot shower if you have chlorinated city water

The important variable that we don't know is in what concentration it was present.

 

[fortytwo]

Hey, fortytwo. Thanks for going the extra mile. If/when you get a response that would be a good one for the "Mythbusters..." thread. :thumb:

I'm not very hopeful. I sent the email on 1.22.09, and the longer they wait to make a correction the bigger the foot will be that they have to pry out of their mouths.

I don't think that there's a news program out there that hasn't perpetuated this by now.

ETA;

HLN EXTRA

Nancy Grace...BREAKING NEWS... "Sorry folks, we had our head up our derriere, there was no knife with the remains, no backpack, no ..."

 

[JWG]

My guess is that he means the ppm level in vapor far exceeds that which would be achieved by the concentration of chloroform in common liquid/solid sources.

The report said it was unusually high relative to what is normally found in human decomposition, but it did not say what ppm levels are normally produced by human decomposition nor did it say what they measured. :banghead: This is why I think it is still possible the chloroform could have come from another source such as dryer sheets or cleaning fluid or both.

 

[Hot Dogs]

It's possible that WFTV doesn't even realize that they made a mistake. What probably happened is that as soon as they got the doc dump they turned it over to their legal analyst Sheaffer. It's his job to read it all quickly, pick out the important parts, and relay those to folks who write the article. Speed of publishing the article may be just as important as accuracy to them.

Kathi may have read the email but paid no attention because Sheaffer is assumed to have read the dump properly. Or, he was forwarded the email and also still thinks he read the dump properly. Or, they are simply uninterested in making a published correction.

 

[ibyoungr]

Here is a transcript from NG. Keep in mind this is BEFORE the actual forensic results were released in a document dump and NG likes to exaggerate...
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0809/05/ng.01.html

 

[fortytwo]

It's possible that WFTV doesn't even realize that they made a mistake. What probably happened is that as soon as they got the doc dump they turned it over to their legal analyst Sheaffer. It's his job to read it all quickly, pick out the important parts, and relay those to folks who write the article. Speed of publishing the article may be just as important as accuracy to them.

Kathi may have read the email but paid no attention because Sheaffer is assumed to have read the dump properly. Or, he was forwarded the email and also still thinks he read the dump properly. Or, they are simply uninterested in making a published correction.

(bold above by me)

That was my original supposition (without the Sheaffer chain). I proposed this on the day of the dump, and so did others, on another thread(s?).

I guess this is WAY off topic for this (chloroform) thread.

Would it be worthwhile to start a new thread to discuss and assure ourselves of this possible error and then use the power of WS to straighten them out. I know that with the acumen of supersleuths like JWG, LancelotLink, yourself and others we could probably develop a convincing argument.

I'm still a rank newbie here, and haven't built up the chutzpah to actually start a new thread, much less go toe to toe with the media.

 

[ibyoungr]

Based up Dr Flowers report... keeping in mind that this was prior to any actual forensic reports being released...

http://www.wesh.com/cnn-news/17392699/detail.html

Test results came back as "vaporized chloroform"

Dr Flower's states:

"It could not have come from a chemical reaction in the trunk. It's impossible. That solvent could knock out the driver of the car."

"these kinds of tests to detect vaporized chloroform are very common and admissible in court."