All About Chloroform#2

[elle1919]

FWIW, I'm pretty sure they said pullup or diaper with a flower design on it was found.
Lanie

Yes, Lanie I read that too, specificaly stated a flower design on the pull-up or diaper.

 

[BondJamesBond]

The report said it was unusually high relative to what is normally found in human decomposition, but it did not say what ppm levels are normally produced by human decomposition nor did it say what they measured. :banghead: This is why I think it is still possible the chloroform could have come from another source such as dryer sheets or cleaning fluid or both.

I agree...we need more info to rule out some potential sources. IIRC, Barden commented on GVS similar to Flowers. He used the term "vaporized" which suggested to me either the lack of other byproduct voc's from low-grade/incidental synthesis, or, just sheer volume in vapor that would be required to achieve the ppm levels being attained in the sample.

However, to expand on the dryer sheet example. To achieve any measurable concentration in the rather large vapor space of the trunk, the concentration of chloroform in that tiny dryer sheet would have to be relatively high...too high, IMHO, to be something used by consumers as it is...direct contact...no warnings, etc.

 

[Hot Dogs]

I'm still a rank newbie here, and haven't built up the chutzpah to actually start a new thread, much less go toe to toe with the media.

Considering how WFTV made this error and has published no correction or retraction - I have to wonder about all media. Many things we read or hear on the news could be completely wrong. I can't really remember seeing any corrections or retractions. Occasionally we see updates that change certain things about earlier articles, but the correction doesn't seem to get explained. You often need a great memory to know what was reported before and then after.

 

[ibyoungr]

Here is a clip of the report regarding diapers, I think we are possibly assuming they found a diaper/pullup or maybe a piece of diaper/pullup and they pulled these items out of evidence to compare with what they found on the scene?

 

[fortytwo]

Here is a transcript from NG. Keep in mind this is BEFORE the actual forensic results were released in a document dump and NG likes to exaggerate...
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0809/05/ng.01.html

quote from transcript in above link:

"
And sources confirm there was so much of the powerful chemical solution chloroform discovered by the FBI in mom, Casey Anthony`s, car trunk, even the air within the trunk was saturated -- the air was saturated with chloroform -- mom, Casey`s, computer revealing multiple visits to Web sites on chloroform. Investigators on the record confirm there is forensic evidence of human decomposition in mom, Casey`s, car trunk. All indicators are it was 3-year-old little Caylee.
"

end quote:

(bold in above quote by me)


She (Nancy) repeated these assertions during her visit to The View yesterday, almost word for word.

I don't feel that the forensics details in the last doc dump support that statement, at least to the degree of "saturated". Yesterday she extended it to include the entire vehicle.

I also don't think that we'll ever hear NG retract, correct or modify anything. She's not very good at eating crow.

 

[Hot Dogs]

Here is a clip of the report regarding diapers, I think we are possibly assuming they found a diaper/pullup or maybe a piece of diaper/pullup and they pulled these items out of evidence to compare with what they found on the scene?

On Dec 16 they took the pull-ups (found in car) out of evidence inventory. This was before DNA evidence confirmed the remains as being Caylee. They may have been comparing the size of the pull-ups with the shorts found with the body... in order to make a tentative association (this child we found wears the same size as Caylee).

 

[ibyoungr]

I just emailed Dr Flowers this morning and got back a response.

This is my email to him...



Dear Mr. Flowers,

You were recently on NG in September discussing chloroform levels. In the Caylee Anthony situation, the forensics have since been released.
Could you please look at those and tell me a little more about the concentration levels? Nancy Grace stated the air in the car “was saturated.”
Now that you can look at the actual forensics report are you able to determine if this chloroform was only from purchased or produced chloroform or could it have been an accumulation of cleaning chemicals, pesticides and decomp?

At what ppm is considered “saturated” or massive amounts?


I have paraphased his response to me here and how I understood what he said. I do not want to get in trouble for posting him verbatim

He bases his thinking on Henry's Law's contraints on vapor equilibrium levels to come to his conclusion....
**my notes:**
Henry's law is: "At a constant temperature, the amount of a given gas dissolved in a given type and volume of liquid is directly proportional to the partial pressure of that gas in equilibrium with that liquid."
To understand this read the link where it uses coca-cola as an example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry's_law


He based his thinking on the above law, his PROPOSED theory of production of chloroform from organic material (decomposing body) in contact with cleaning products.

The level of water concentrations fom the action of the chlorine(the hypocholorite=cleaning solution?) would control the vapor concentrations.

He then states the levels would be "immeasurable" (incapable of being measured as it would be limitless). So he states that a solvent(a solution that dissolves into another) is placed in the trunk.

After reading the report the his opinion is that the chloroform levels were higher than the level expected due to decompostion.

 

[ibyoungr]

On Dec 16 they took the pull-ups (found in car) out of evidence inventory. This was before DNA evidence confirmed the remains as being Caylee. They may have been comparing the size of the pull-ups with the shorts found with the body... in order to make a tentative association (this child we found wears the same size as Caylee).

True.. I guess I had already figured it was Caylee at the time and then when I read the doc dump I thought.. hmmm they want to see if they are the same diaper.

 

[JWG]

Based up Dr Flowers report... keeping in mind that this was prior to any actual forensic reports being released...

http://www.wesh.com/cnn-news/17392699/detail.html

Test results came back as "vaporized chloroform"

And therein lies the problem, because now we hear throughout the boards that this was a "very pure" form of chloroform, when in fact nothing in the report indicates that.

Dr Flower's states:

"It could not have come from a chemical reaction in the trunk. It's impossible. That solvent could knock out the driver of the car."

"these kinds of tests to detect vaporized chloroform are very common and admissible in court."

The report basically says that chloroform is one of many byproducts of decomposition (i.e., a chemical reaction taking place throughout the human body after death while it lays in some location such as, perhaps, a trunk.)

There is also nothing that says the concentration was so high it could knock out the car's driver. IIRC, George said he stuck his nose right up to the stain and sniffed it, but was not knocked out as a result.

 

[BondJamesBond]

quote from transcript in above link:

"
And sources confirm there was so much of the powerful chemical solution chloroform discovered by the FBI in mom, Casey Anthony`s, car trunk, even the air within the trunk was saturated -- the air was saturated with chloroform -- mom, Casey`s, computer revealing multiple visits to Web sites on chloroform. Investigators on the record confirm there is forensic evidence of human decomposition in mom, Casey`s, car trunk. All indicators are it was 3-year-old little Caylee.
"

end quote:

(bold in above quote by me)


She (Nancy) repeated these assertions during her visit to The View yesterday, almost word for word.

I don't feel that the forensics details in the last doc dump support that statement, at least to the degree of "saturated". Yesterday she extended it to include the entire vehicle.

I also don't think that we'll ever hear NG retract, correct or modify anything. She's not very good at eating crow.

Thanks, fortytwo.

If the trunk vapor space was truly "saturated"...after weeks of being in impound, and after being opened for ventilation by G&C's...then there was still an excess of chloroform present in the trunk when it was tested sometime post-7/15. Since chloroform is more dense than air it would not completely, naturally ventilate out of the trunk enclosure, even with the lid open...however, even with G&C opening the lid, a new volume of unsaturated air would have been enclosed in the trunk before LE impounded it for testing. IF, when tested, it was "saturated" again...well...then there was an excess of chloroform in the trunk (e.g. carpet/fabric/backing, etc.) that was sufficient to RE-saturate the newly infused air from G&C's opening it up.

NG would throw around the term "saturated" loosely...however, I wouldn't expect Flowers to do the same thing. "Saturated" has a very specific meaning in chemistry-ease.

ETA: To be more comprehensive...we didn't know if the excess of chloroform in the trunk carpet/fabric/backing, etc. was from the decomp stain...or something else...until we got via ibyoungr :blowkiss: from Flowers saying, the chloroform levels were not in proportion (by far) from the level expected due to decomposition.

 

[Lanie]

I just emailed Dr Flowers this morning and got back a response.

This is my email to him...



Dear Mr. Flowers,

You were recently on NG in September discussing chloroform levels. In the Caylee Anthony situation, the forensics have since been released.
Could you please look at those and tell me a little more about the concentration levels? Nancy Grace stated the air in the car “was saturated.”
Now that you can look at the actual forensics report are you able to determine if this chloroform was only from purchased or produced chloroform or could it have been an accumulation of cleaning chemicals, pesticides and decomp?

At what ppm is considered “saturated” or massive amounts?


I have paraphased his response to me here and how I understood what he said. I do not want to get in trouble for posting him verbatim

He bases his thinking on Henry's Law's contraints on vapor equilibrium levels to come to his conclusion....
**my notes:**
Henry's law is: "At a constant temperature, the amount of a given gas dissolved in a given type and volume of liquid is directly proportional to the partial pressure of that gas in equilibrium with that liquid."
To understand this read the link where it uses coca-cola as an example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry's_law


He based his thinking on the above law, his PROPOSED theory of production of chloroform from organic material (decomposing body) in contact with cleaning products.

The level of water concentrations fom the action of the chlorine(the hypocholorite=cleaning solution?) would control the vapor concentrations.

He then states the levels would be "immeasurable" (incapable of being measured as it would be limitless). So he states that a solvent(a solution that dissolves into another) is placed in the trunk.

After reading the report the his opinion is that the chloroform levels were higher than the level expected due to decompostion.

Great work. I am way too shy to email any of these people, lol, so thanks.
Lanie

 

[BondJamesBond]

On Dec 16 they took the pull-ups (found in car) out of evidence inventory. This was before DNA evidence confirmed the remains as being Caylee. They may have been comparing the size of the pull-ups with the shorts found with the body... in order to make a tentative association (this child we found wears the same size as Caylee).

OK...this starts to make sense now...

The pull-ups just happened to be in the same evidence box as the trash bag. It appears the tech went to get the evidence box so he could compare the trash bag recovered from the Pontiac/G&C's(?) to the one recovered w/ the remains. The inventory of other items in the evidence box included the pull-ups. Geez. Sorry for the confusion :bang:

 

[fortytwo]

Considering how WFTV made this error and has published no correction or retraction - I have to wonder about all media. Many things we read or hear on the news could be completely wrong. I can't really remember seeing any corrections or retractions. Occasionally we see updates that change certain things about earlier articles, but the correction doesn't seem to get explained. You often need a great memory to know what was reported before and then after.

(bold above by me)

ITA(FWAWGE) (new abbr. ... Fervently, Wholeheartedly, And With Great Enthusiasm).

I have always felt this way, but my involvement here with WS has changed my natural skepticism into something more like "I saw their lips move. I know what THAT means."

My (beautiful, intelligent, wise, and perceptive :blowkiss: ) DH (she reads here too, :crazy: ) frequently closes a discussion with "Well ... it was on the NEWS".

Because she reads here too she's gradually coming around to my way of thinking.

Next we'll work on conspiracy theories.

 

[ibyoungr]

OK...this starts to make sense now...

The pull-ups just happened to be in the same evidence box as the trash bag. It appears the tech went to get the evidence box so he could compare the trash bag recovered from the Pontiac/G&C's(?) to the one recovered w/ the remains. The inventory of other items in the evidence box included the pull-ups. Geez. Sorry for the confusion :bang:

However, it would be interesting to know if they found pieces or parts of the pullup and could test it for any chemicals...which is EXCELLENT thinking outside the box on your part.

This is definitely an avenue that they may be taking and we just do not know it yet. I did not think of it until you brought it up.

 

[ecs5298]

FWIW, I'm pretty sure they said pullup or diaper with a flower design on it was found.
Lanie

Give me a minute to find the link but the pull up was found in the back pack that was in the Sunfire not with the remains.

 

[ibyoungr]

Give me a minute to find the link but the pull up was found in the back pack that was in the Sunfire not with the remains.

SEE POST #524 this thread.

 

[JWG]

I just emailed Dr Flowers this morning and got back a response.

This is my email to him...



Dear Mr. Flowers,

You were recently on NG in September discussing chloroform levels. In the Caylee Anthony situation, the forensics have since been released.
Could you please look at those and tell me a little more about the concentration levels? Nancy Grace stated the air in the car “was saturated.”
Now that you can look at the actual forensics report are you able to determine if this chloroform was only from purchased or produced chloroform or could it have been an accumulation of cleaning chemicals, pesticides and decomp?

At what ppm is considered “saturated” or massive amounts?


I have paraphased his response to me here and how I understood what he said. I do not want to get in trouble for posting him verbatim

He bases his thinking on Henry's Law's contraints on vapor equilibrium levels to come to his conclusion....
**my notes:**
Henry's law is: "At a constant temperature, the amount of a given gas dissolved in a given type and volume of liquid is directly proportional to the partial pressure of that gas in equilibrium with that liquid."
To understand this read the link where it uses coca-cola as an example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry's_law


He based his thinking on the above law, his PROPOSED theory of production of chloroform from organic material (decomposing body) in contact with cleaning products.

The level of water concentrations fom the action of the chlorine(the hypocholorite=cleaning solution?) would control the vapor concentrations.

He then states the levels would be "immeasurable" (incapable of being measured as it would be limitless). So he states that a solvent(a solution that dissolves into another) is placed in the trunk.

After reading the report the his opinion is that the chloroform levels were higher than the level expected due to decompostion.

He is talking about the production of chloroform through chemical reaction in the trunk, and not about the pre-existence of chloroform as a constituent of the product, either dryer sheet or cleaning solution.

Also, I have trouble with the use of the phrase "far higher." There is no definition. Is it 50% higher or 5 times higher? No indication of this in the report.

Not trying to say KC definitely did not use chloroform, but right now as I read it the forensic report is too vague to draw a conclusion that eliminates other possibilities. I am quite concerned that the report is too easy to refute.

 

[ibyoungr]

(bold above by me)

ITA(FWAWGE) (new abbr. ... Fervently, Wholeheartedly, And With Great Enthusiasm).

I have always felt this way, but my involvement here with WS has changed my natural skepticism into something more like "I saw their lips move. I know what THAT means."

My (beautiful, intelligent, wise, and perceptive :blowkiss: ) DH (she reads here too, :crazy: ) frequently closes a discussion with "Well ... it was on the NEWS".

Because she reads here too she's gradually coming around to my way of thinking.

Next we'll work on conspiracy theories.

Love you guys... :blowkiss:
but could you start a new thread to discuss errors made by newscasters? Hard to filter this conversation between the discussion of diapers and chloroform.

 

[JWG]

OK...this starts to make sense now...

The pull-ups just happened to be in the same evidence box as the trash bag. It appears the tech went to get the evidence box so he could compare the trash bag recovered from the Pontiac/G&C's(?) to the one recovered w/ the remains. The inventory of other items in the evidence box included the pull-ups. Geez. Sorry for the confusion :bang:

The particular trash bag in question - the one in this evidence box - is the black trash bag with yellow draw strings that Cindy used to put the items she removed from the car: backpack (which contained a pull-up), kitchen knife, purse, plastic crate, clothes hangar, etc. She handed the bag with the items to Det. Beasley. Apparently there was no expectation that the bag was to be returned as it is not listed on the property sheet.

I speculate that there was a pull-up with the remains - it is just not mentioned on the search warrant. The reason for Yuri collecting those three items was, IMO, to see if they could be tied directly to evidence found at the crime scene.

 

[BondJamesBond]

ibyoungr...if you haven't already...it would seem to be a good courtesy to be explicit w/ Flowers that you wished to post his comments verbatim. Without his permission...maybe not so much. Better yet...invite him to join us in the breach!