All About Chloroform#2

[BondJamesBond]

OT: Enjoyed mixin' it up w/ you all this morning. Very healthy, respectful, back'n'forth, IMHO.

I guess, "we don't know what we don't know"...but, I have new hope that there's more solid evidence to support SA's case.

 

[Indigo]

And therein lies the problem, because now we hear throughout the boards that this was a "very pure" form of chloroform, when in fact nothing in the report indicates that.



The report basically says that chloroform is one of many byproducts of decomposition (i.e., a chemical reaction taking place throughout the human body after death while it lays in some location such as, perhaps, a trunk.)

There is also nothing that says the concentration was so high it could knock out the car's driver. IIRC, George said he stuck his nose right up to the stain and sniffed it, but was not knocked out as a result.

Hi, JWG...I think the term "pure form" is simply referring to chloroform's liquid state. ( even in decompositional fluids--liquid first...converting to vapor?)

Avapor = Apure liquid (please excuse lack of formatting)

The concentration levels would be helpful for analysis. We know from forensic reports that the levels exceeded those produced by human decompositional events. To find an alternative explanation for the levels, all other factors need to be considered.

 

[Hot Dogs]

I speculate that there was a pull-up with the remains - it is just not mentioned on the search warrant. The reason for Yuri collecting those three items was, IMO, to see if they could be tied directly to evidence found at the crime scene.

Using that reasoning - there was a knife at the crime scene too.

 

[Indigo]

I just emailed Dr Flowers this morning and got back a response.

This is my email to him...



Dear Mr. Flowers,

You were recently on NG in September discussing chloroform levels. In the Caylee Anthony situation, the forensics have since been released.
Could you please look at those and tell me a little more about the concentration levels? Nancy Grace stated the air in the car “was saturated.”
Now that you can look at the actual forensics report are you able to determine if this chloroform was only from purchased or produced chloroform or could it have been an accumulation of cleaning chemicals, pesticides and decomp?

At what ppm is considered “saturated” or massive amounts?


I have paraphased his response to me here and how I understood what he said. I do not want to get in trouble for posting him verbatim

He bases his thinking on Henry's Law's contraints on vapor equilibrium levels to come to his conclusion....
**my notes:**
Henry's law is: "At a constant temperature, the amount of a given gas dissolved in a given type and volume of liquid is directly proportional to the partial pressure of that gas in equilibrium with that liquid."
To understand this read the link where it uses coca-cola as an example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry's_law


He based his thinking on the above law, his PROPOSED theory of production of chloroform from organic material (decomposing body) in contact with cleaning products.

The level of water concentrations fom the action of the chlorine(the hypocholorite=cleaning solution?) would control the vapor concentrations.

He then states the levels would be "immeasurable" (incapable of being measured as it would be limitless). So he states that a solvent(a solution that dissolves into another) is placed in the trunk.

After reading the report the his opinion is that the chloroform levels were higher than the level expected due to decompostion.

Thank you!!! :blowkiss:

 

[ibyoungr]

Using that reasoning - there was a knife at the crime scene too.

Or they wanted to see if the knife in the evidence box could have been used to cut the duct tape. Matching the serated edge to the edge of the duct tape.

 

[fortytwo]

OK...this starts to make sense now...

The pull-ups just happened to be in the same evidence box as the trash bag. It appears the tech went to get the evidence box so he could compare the trash bag recovered from the Pontiac/G&C's(?) to the one recovered w/ the remains. The inventory of other items in the evidence box included the pull-ups. Geez. Sorry for the confusion :bang:

You can certainly be forgiven the confusion. It has been incited by reporting hysteria.

In Dec. (16?, 17?, days after the remains were found) the items in question were requested by the case detectives and removed from the box containing the evidence brought (in July) in a plastic bag (supplied by CA) to the CSI while he was examining the Sunfire (sorry, I'm going by memory here).

the plastic bag itself
a stainless steel knife
a pair of pull-ups from a backpack

It is an excellent avenue to pursue the reasons why LE wanted to re-visit these particular items immediately following the discovery of the remains and whatever else may have been found with them.

The wild goose chase surmises that have resulted from inaccurate (I was going to say "piss poor" but I won't) reporting are completely unproductive.

 

[JWG]

Using that reasoning - there was a knife at the crime scene too.

Naw...the knife was used to cut the duct tape .

 

[treeseeker]

from ppgs. 3341-3342 of the last doc dump:

Residues of chloroform were identified within specimens (Q specs from trunk liner and spare tire cover). Residues consistent with chloroform were detected in two (left and right side of trunk liner). No additional chemicals eg acetone or alcohols were identified within the examined specimens.

I THINK (in the tiny portion of my brain that understands chemistry) this means if the chloroform present was a result of a cleaning/freshening product, you would expect to also find other residues. I think it has something to do with azeotropes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotrope

http://www.uic.edu/labs/AMReL/NSFREU2004/Reports2004/Jacob Hunter_Final Report.pdf

 

[BondJamesBond]

The wild goose chase surmises that have resulted from inaccurate (I was going to say "piss poor" but I won't) reporting are completely unproductive.

*snipped*

Whew, fortytwo...that was close...you almost slipped there

 

[okiedokietoo]

I do not understand scientific anything but if JB is running around right now with this major quest to get RM's computer forensics especially interested in anything to do with chloroform on his computer And his experts have read all the reports - I am thinking that the chloroform levels in the trunk are not from decomp.

 

[JWG]

OT: Enjoyed mixin' it up w/ you all this morning. Very healthy, respectful, back'n'forth, IMHO.

I guess, "we don't know what we don't know"...but, I have new hope that there's more solid evidence to support SA's case.

Agree, and hopefully folks did not think me too testy over the chloroform interpretation.

I think SA has a wealth of information as well. Hope they have the time and $$ to process it all.

FWIW...I am amazed at how much luck seems to have played into this.

 

[BondJamesBond]

from ppgs. 3341-3342 of the last doc dump:

Residues of chloroform were identified within specimens (Q specs from trunk liner and spare tire cover). Residues consistent with chloroform were detected in two (left and right side of trunk liner). No additional chemicals eg acetone or alcohols were identified within the examined specimens.

I THINK (in the tiny portion of my brain that understands chemistry) this means if the chloroform present was a result of a cleaning/freshening product, you would expect to also find other residues. I think it has something to do with azeotropes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotrope

http://www.uic.edu/labs/AMReL/NSFREU2004/Reports2004/Jacob Hunter_Final Report.pdf

*Bold & color by me*

Beautiful post, treeseeker. An azeotrope w/ alcohol would prohibit a purer presence of chloroform in the vapor space..IOW...if it came from a crude, homemade set-up...the purity of the vapor would be limited. If from a cleaning solution...other residues would be easily identified.

ETA...now would be a GREAT time to hear from Bev

 

[fortytwo]

*snipped*

Whew, fortytwo...that was close...you almost slipped there

You know what they say in court, "... the jury will disregard..."

 

[natsound]

I just emailed Dr Flowers this morning and got back a response.

This is my email to him...



Dear Mr. Flowers,

You were recently on NG in September discussing chloroform levels. In the Caylee Anthony situation, the forensics have since been released.
Could you please look at those and tell me a little more about the concentration levels? Nancy Grace stated the air in the car “was saturated.”
Now that you can look at the actual forensics report are you able to determine if this chloroform was only from purchased or produced chloroform or could it have been an accumulation of cleaning chemicals, pesticides and decomp?

At what ppm is considered “saturated” or massive amounts?


I have paraphased his response to me here and how I understood what he said. I do not want to get in trouble for posting him verbatim

He bases his thinking on Henry's Law's contraints on vapor equilibrium levels to come to his conclusion....
**my notes:**
Henry's law is: "At a constant temperature, the amount of a given gas dissolved in a given type and volume of liquid is directly proportional to the partial pressure of that gas in equilibrium with that liquid."
To understand this read the link where it uses coca-cola as an example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry's_law


He based his thinking on the above law, his PROPOSED theory of production of chloroform from organic material (decomposing body) in contact with cleaning products.

The level of water concentrations fom the action of the chlorine(the hypocholorite=cleaning solution?) would control the vapor concentrations.

He then states the levels would be "immeasurable" (incapable of being measured as it would be limitless). So he states that a solvent(a solution that dissolves into another) is placed in the trunk.

After reading the report the his opinion is that the chloroform levels were higher than the level expected due to decompostion.

ibyoungr, you are the coolest for emailing Dr. Flowers!

So, are you gleaning from this that Dr. Flowers thinks the chloroform in the trunk came from solvent, or cleaning fluid? Could have either been spilled cleaning fluid, or chlorofom on a rag held to Caylee's mouth.

What cleaning fluids have high levels of chloroform in them?

 

[BondJamesBond]

You know what they say in court, "... the jury will disregard..."

:clap: OK..its official...WS is fun again :woohoo:

 

[treeseeker]

*Bold & color by me*

Beautiful post, treeseeker. An azeotrope w/ alcohol would prohibit a purer presence of chloroform in the vapor space..IOW...if it came from a crude, homemade set-up...the purity of the vapor would be limited. If from a cleaning solution...other residues would be easily identified.

ETA...now would be a GREAT time to hear from Bev

I'm pretty sure that's the deal, and probably why LE is consistent about the chloroform.

 

[Bev]

I still haven't read anything in the preliminary report that would indicate the presence of comercial grade chloroform.

p.s. I can't find a single case of a commercial cleaner that uses chloroform - in fact, I believe the use of chloroform in commercial products is banned - it is highly carcinogenic.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Dunno if put forth before, but, if not, here's something to consider as a convenient source for Casey to obtain chloroform... pure speculation on my part...

Seems to be reasonably well established that Tony's circle was into cannibus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibus

The 'active' ingredient in pot is THC.

THC is often extracted from cannibus w/ intent to make more readily portable & potent forms for recreational use & trafficking...with....chloroform.

Sorry I can't provide a link from here...suggest Googling THC extraction chloroform.

Perhaps Casey had a readily available supply she could easily get her hands on w/o being detected.

Fusian for trafficking/distribution of the end product...

 

[BondJamesBond]

I still haven't read anything in the preliminary report that would indicate the presence of comercial grade chloroform.

p.s. I can't find a single case of a commercial cleaner that uses chloroform - in fact, I believe the use of chloroform in commercial products is banned - it is highly carcinogenic.

It is, however, FWIW, available as a pesticide...dealer in Orlando via Google. Dunno if a license is required to obtain, etc.

 

[Indigo]

Headspace gas chromatography - Dryer sheets

Note: listed in rank order relative to concentration--only VOCs with a headspace concentration of greater than 300 μg/m3 were included:




Compound CAS #
Linalool 78-70-6
Ethanol 64-17-5
Benzyl acetate 140-11-4
cis-rose oxide 16409-43-1
Carene isomer e.g. 13466-78-9
2,4-dimethyl-3-cyclohexene-1-carboxaldehyde (Triplal 1) 68039-49-6
d-limonene 138-86-3
3-methyl-2-buten-1-ol acetate 1191-16-8
2,7-dimethyl-2,7-octanediol 19781-07-8
α-pinene 80-56-8
trans-rose oxide 876-18-6
Eucalyptol 470-82-6
α-phenylethyl acetate 93-92-5
β-pinene 127-91-3
2,4-dimethyl-3-cyclohexene-1-carboxaldehyde (Triplal extra) 67801-65-4

http://www.ce.washington.edu/people/faculty/bios/documents/Steinemann__2008_Fragranced_Consumer_Products_FINAL.pdf