All About Chloroform#2

[Bev]

You're getting feverish now, Mr. Bond...

p.s. Anyone using that as a pesticide is insane.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Headspace gas chromatography - Dryer sheets

Note: listed in rank order relative to concentration--only VOCs with a headspace concentration of greater than 300 μg/m3 were included:

Compound CAS #
Linalool 78-70-6
Ethanol 64-17-5
Benzyl acetate 140-11-4
cis-rose oxide 16409-43-1
Carene isomer e.g. 13466-78-9
2,4-dimethyl-3-cyclohexene-1-carboxaldehyde (Triplal 1) 68039-49-6

*snipped*

...just when you thought it was safe to go back into your laundry room

 

[fortytwo]

Dunno if put forth before, but, if not, here's something to consider as a convenient source for Casey to obtain chloroform... pure speculation on my part...

Seems to be reasonably well established that Tony's circle was into cannibus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibus

The 'active' ingredient in pot is THC.

THC is often extracted from cannibus w/ intent to make more readily portable & potent forms for recreational use & trafficking...with....chloroform.

Sorry I can't provide a link from here...suggest Googling THC extraction chloroform.

Perhaps Casey had a readily available supply she could easily get her hands on w/o being detected.

Fusian for trafficking/distribution of the end product...

Possible, but there are certainly easier to obtain and much safer ways to achieve the same end. Butter comes to mind. (Don't ask me how I know this. Suffice it to say that when I was growing up Alice's Restaurant was still open. The real one.)

I have always thought that the chloroform thing is a huge red herring. It's just too traceable to buy in pure form, and I don't feel that most of the characters in this madness (KC especially) would take the trouble to manufacture it. There are just too many more easily obtained alternatives for most of the conjectured uses. I'm still open on the cleaning agent theory.

OT: I think its hilarious that the wiki link has "cannabis" misspelled. They got it right in the article, but whoever set up the link typoed or is under 50. Or both.

 

[Bev]

I agree that this is a red herring. I have read that report over and over and just now I have read it twice and there is nothing in that report that would indicate an amount of chloroform that would be inconsistent with an HDE. I'm not saying that it wasn't used, but imo, people jumped the gun on exactly what the report was saying - it actually says a level of chloroform that is consistent with an HDE in anerobic conditions. (And trace amounts were found in the control sample, too.) That means that the decomposition took place in an atmosphere deprived of oxegen and that would account for the higher levels of chloroform usually associated with HDEs.

 

[JWG]

Headspace gas chromatography - Dryer sheets

Note: listed in rank order relative to concentration--only VOCs with a headspace concentration of greater than 300 μg/m3 were included:




Compound CAS #
Linalool 78-70-6
Ethanol 64-17-5
Benzyl acetate 140-11-4
cis-rose oxide 16409-43-1
Carene isomer e.g. 13466-78-9
2,4-dimethyl-3-cyclohexene-1-carboxaldehyde (Triplal 1) 68039-49-6
d-limonene 138-86-3
3-methyl-2-buten-1-ol acetate 1191-16-8
2,7-dimethyl-2,7-octanediol 19781-07-8
α-pinene 80-56-8
trans-rose oxide 876-18-6
Eucalyptol 470-82-6
α-phenylethyl acetate 93-92-5
β-pinene 127-91-3
2,4-dimethyl-3-cyclohexene-1-carboxaldehyde (Triplal extra) 67801-65-4

http://www.ce.washington.edu/people/faculty/bios/documents/Steinemann__2008_Fragranced_Consumer_Products_FINAL.pdf

This is really really good information. Nice digging.

FWIW...the information regarding chloroform in dryer sheets did come from "green" and "healthy living" websites. I like to live healthy and be "green", but I do consider the source ...

 

[Rumpole]

I agree that this is a red herring. I have read that report over and over and just now I have read it twice and there is nothing in that report that would indicate an amount of chloroform that would be inconsistent with an HDE. I'm not saying that it wasn't used, but imo, people jumped the gun on exactly what the report was saying - it actually says a level of chloroform that is consistent with an HDE in anerobic conditions. (And trace amounts were found in the control sample, too.) That means that the decomposition took place in an atmosphere deprived of oxegen and that would account for the higher levels of chloroform usually associated with HDEs.

Some one else pointed out that the anaerobic components of decomposition are those occuring inside the body. More so in the earllier stages when the body is largely intact. The tape over the mouth from early on would block ONE of the magor orifices thus slightly prolonging the production of compounds associated anaerobic decmop. including chloroform.

 

[JWG]

Some one else pointed out that the anaerobic components of decomposition are those occuring inside the body. More so in the earllier stages when the body is largely intact. The tape over the mouth from early on would block ONE of the magor orifices thus slightly prolonging the production of compounds associated anaerobic decmop. including chloroform.

Being in a bag - even a cloth bag - would "help" create such an environment as well.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Wondering if ibyoungr will have any luck inviting Flowers to join in the mix :waitasec:

goad·ed, goad·ing, goads
To prod or urge with or as if with a long pointed stick (e.g. Wescott ruler).

 

[It's Not the Nanny]

Wondering if ibyoungr will have any luck inviting Flowers to join in the mix :waitasec:

goad·ed, goad·ing, goads
To prod or urge with or as if with a long pointed stick (e.g. Wescott ruler).

You crack me up!


(cough, cough...still haven't revealed your true identity!)



I'm so NOT a chemist and obviously not in the business of chloroform but.... if she placed Caylee in the trunk with Chloroform, wouldn't she be knocked out herself once she re-opened the trunk again?

 

[shadow of my mind]

Headspace gas chromatography - Dryer sheets

Note: listed in rank order relative to concentration--only VOCs with a headspace concentration of greater than 300 μg/m3 were included:




Compound CAS #
Linalool 78-70-6
Ethanol 64-17-5
Benzyl acetate 140-11-4
cis-rose oxide 16409-43-1
Carene isomer e.g. 13466-78-9
2,4-dimethyl-3-cyclohexene-1-carboxaldehyde (Triplal 1) 68039-49-6
d-limonene 138-86-3
3-methyl-2-buten-1-ol acetate 1191-16-8
2,7-dimethyl-2,7-octanediol 19781-07-8
α-pinene 80-56-8
trans-rose oxide 876-18-6
Eucalyptol 470-82-6
α-phenylethyl acetate 93-92-5
β-pinene 127-91-3
2,4-dimethyl-3-cyclohexene-1-carboxaldehyde (Triplal extra) 67801-65-4

http://www.ce.washington.edu/people/faculty/bios/documents/Steinemann__2008_Fragranced_Consumer_Products_FINAL.pdf

So in chemistry land then this means that any Chloroform that would be in a dryer sheet is not even close to being a substantial part of the makeup of chemicals used in this product.
....Which goes back to my original thinking that you would have to have huge amounts of loose dryer sheets laying in the trunk of the car to give off enough of a vapor that would alter the levels detected in the air test.

The fact that a human body, as it decomposes gives off a certain amount of chloroform, along with other known chemicals but the amount of chloroform was much higher than what would be considered the 'normal' amount of chloroform.

What we don't know
-What is considered a 'normal' amount of chloroform vapor from a decomposing human body.
-Exactly how much chloroform vapor one dryer sheet would emit.
-If any type of cleaning product such as carpet cleaner, spot removers, laundry detergents have any chloroform in their chemical makeup that they are manufactured with that could emit vapors that would raise the chloroform vapor level that was detected in the air test.

What we do know is
-That despite the fact that the trunk had time to sit open in the air, which would allow concentrations of chemical 'vapors' to dissipate...become less concentrated... that there was still a higher level of chloroform detected in the trunk than should be there from a decomposing human body.

-That you can purchase chloroform with relative ease via the Internet.
-That chloroform can be used in various illegal practices such as check washing, making meth.
-That other chemical that are more easily obtained can also be used in its place.

-That there was at two separate searches on the computer for chloroform.
March 17 there was a search done for “chloroform” [GA was home from work]
March 21 there was a search done “how to make” chloroform [GA was at work]
-That Ricardo M. had a picture and a comment on his myspace about chloroform

Did I miss anything?

 

[ibyoungr]

ibyoungr, you are the coolest for emailing Dr. Flowers!

So, are you gleaning from this that Dr. Flowers thinks the chloroform in the trunk came from solvent, or cleaning fluid? Could have either been spilled cleaning fluid, or chlorofom on a rag held to Caylee's mouth.

What cleaning fluids have high levels of chloroform in them?

He states it to be a solvent. Definition of solvent being:
a substance that dissolves another to form a solution

However, when I interpret this (which is like interpreting Greek)

Henry's law is: "At a constant temperature, the amount of a given gas dissolved in a given type and volume of liquid is directly proportional to the partial pressure of that gas in equilibrium with that liquid."
To understand this read the link where it uses coca-cola as an example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry's_law

He based his thinking on the above law, his PROPOSED theory of production of chloroform from organic material (decomposing body) in contact with cleaning products.

The level so water concentrations fom the action of the chlorine(the hypocholorite=cleaning solution?) would control the vapor concentrations.

He then states the levels would be "immeasurable" (incapable of being measured as it would be limitless). So he states that a solvent(a solution that dissolves into another) is placed in the trunk.

After reading the report the his opinion is that the chloroform levels were higher than the level expected due to decompostion.

So I take it he stating a a substance that dissolves another to form a solution is in the trunk.

 

[treeseeker]

So, it possible that LE is coming to a "lack thereof" conclusion, rather than an "absolutely there" one re the chloroform minus add'l chemicals.

Did a search for chloroform and its relation to lipids (poss decomp fluid might well contain lipids). I don't have an answer, but this article mentions the level of chloroform in umh, butter...I couldn't resist. Link:

http://www.inchem.org/documents/cicads/cicads/cicad58.htm

 

[fortytwo]

So, it possible that LE is coming to a "lack thereof" conclusion, rather than an "absolutely there" one re the chloroform minus add'l chemicals.

Did a search for chloroform and its relation to lipids (poss decomp fluid might well contain lipids). I don't have an answer, but this article mentions the level of chloroform in umh, butter...I couldn't resist. Link:

http://www.inchem.org/documents/cicads/cicads/cicad58.htm

:floorlaugh:

ETA: Upon reflection, after reading that link, its kind of surprising how much chloroform we eat all the time.

 

[BondJamesBond]

What we don't know
-What is considered a 'normal' amount of chloroform vapor from a decomposing human body.
-Exactly how much chloroform vapor one dryer sheet would emit.

*snipped*

Following the lead of the clever individuals that tackled the "pizza odor" early in the case - I propose...an experiment!

I'll supply the dryer sheets.

Now...any volunteers for a body?

 

[Rumpole]

*snipped*

Following the lead of the clever individuals that tackled the "pizza odor" early in the case - I propose...an experiment!

I'll supply the dryer sheets.

Now...any volunteers for a body?

I've outlined before that over the Xmas period I found a good "decomposing body" analogue!
Inadvertantly put a ham bone and a few trimings in the trash. Did my bit for the WS cause.(It was an "accident").
Quite a pong. Not a real dead body smell, but close enough for an experiment. You chaps go for it!

 

[fortytwo]

*snipped*

Following the lead of the clever individuals that tackled the "pizza odor" early in the case - I propose...an experiment!

I'll supply the dryer sheets.

Now...any volunteers for a body?

I'm working on a list of people I'd be willing to "volunteer".

I'll get back to you.

 

[Jersey*Girl]

This is really really good information. Nice digging.

FWIW...the information regarding chloroform in dryer sheets did come from "green" and "healthy living" websites. I like to live healthy and be "green", but I do consider the source ...

I can't believe I just thought of this! Please keep in mind that I've been doing this for years. Whenever I steam clean or shampoo my carpets, I almost always add a cap full of (automatic) dishwasher detergent. I use hot water on my white berber and cold water on my other colored berber. The hot water mixed with the dishwasher detergent will brighten & lighten my white carpet, therefore stain my colored berber with "bleach" spots if I use hot water & don't rinse it well enough. Having said that, it made me wonder if CA really did use her fabulous Bissell on KC's trunk! Please refer to the following link, but I'll add a brief description for your convenience. It really might explain the chloroform, especially if it wasn't rinsed well enough. It works the same as bleach, just without the heavy smell.

http://www.environmental-assistance.org/health/toxic_household_CNN.ca_01.html

DISHWASHER - CHLOROFORM

Overview:
Chloroform gas builds up when you run your dishwasher Allow dishes to dry in the dishwasher with the door closed

Problems:
Chlorination is an important method of water sanitization used in most municipalities. However, its by-product is chloroform, an invisible gas that forms when the chlorine and organic molecules in the water mix together. The higher the temperature of the water, the more chloroform produced. Many dishwashing detergents also contain chlorine, which increases the chloroform that escapes with the puff of steam when the dishwasher door opens.

Solutions:
Use a non-chlorinated detergent in the dishwasher. Leave the dishwasher door closed until the dishes are dry. Doing so without operating the "dry" cycle will conserve energy as well. If you have to open the dishwasher immediately after the wash cycle, try and avoid breathing the steam as it comes out of the unit. Turning on the kitchen fan and opening windows also helps steam to travel out of your breathing zone.

If the trunk was steam cleaned with a little bit of dishwasher detergent, added to the fact that 4 dryer sheets were found in the car, it might emit a higher level of chloroform than "normal". Any takes?

 

[Texas Mist]

quite an interesting read here:

http://www.officer.com/web/online/Investigation/The-Body-in-the-Trunk/18$45105

DR. DOUG HANSON
Forensics Contributor

<snip begin>
The Conclusion
Four of the five compounds can occur with either anaerobic or aerobic decomposition. These compounds are: carbon disulfide, trimethyl trisulfide, dimethyl disulfide, and carbon tetrachloride. The fifth compound, chloroform, is primarily found in situations where the decomposition occurs in oxygen deprived or anaerobic conditions. One of the compounds, carbon tetrachloride, is considered a human specific decomposition marker and is not seen in the decomposition of animal carcasses.
<snip end>

 

[BondJamesBond]

quite an interesting read here:
http://www.officer.com/web/online/Investigation/The-Body-in-the-Trunk/18$45105
DR. DOUG HANSON
Forensics Contributor

*snip*

Terrific article, Texas Mist. Thanks for sharing! :blowkiss:
That the compounds from later-stage decomp were not found should certainly put many suspicious of G and/or C discovering the body 7/15 and assisting w/ disposal to rest. Amazing science!

OK..lemme see the big hand is on the 12...the little hand is on the 10...that means...:waitasec: hmmmm, oh...OK its time for me to lean towards Casey using Rx o.d. vs. chloroform. When the big hand reaches the 6 I'll hafta change my mind again :bang:

This article + Bev's, et.al.'s recent posts attributing the elevated chloroform to anaerobic decomp conditions is (for the next 30mins at least) causing me to think Dr. Flowers may not be accounting for the enclosed environment in his assessment. Before I read this article I was ready to debate the anaerobic conditions thinking the ADD indicated the body leaked decomp at a least (if not until) the 2.6-3-day mark...hence...the body wasn't in a bag (i.e. anaerobic environment). This article suggested that even the unopened trunk would be sufficient to consistitute an anaerobic environment. Even if it had been opened on 6/17, 6/18 and 6/19 or 6/20...I can buy that. It's a relatively small space...and the amount of decomposing body offgas relative to that volume...ok...I'm easy...

Whew...that was close...took me 15mins to type...gotta another 15mins until I gotta change my mind

 

[Bev]

I just don't see the use of chloroform in this case. I think a more likely method would be a cough/cold rx.