Allison Baden-Clay, GENERAL CASE DISCUSSION THREAD -#31

[Flinders]

Yes this in the Herald was dated 3 July but CM authors still on that date:

Alison Sandy and Greg Stolz
The Courier-Mail
July 03, 201212:00AM

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...-baden-clay-team/story-fndo45r1-1226415091838

Snap.

 

[BreakingNews]

Tomorrow there may be a request if he could appeal the decision or re-apply for bail if his legal circumstances change.

Hint...new legals with fresh angles?

And a movie to be made

 

[possumheart]

Jools, any info you can offer will be of benefit to the police. I think it would be wise to contact them asap. Tis is the type of info they have been actively seeking from the beginning!? The roundabout seems to be crucial for reasons I just can't get my head around, but its obviously very 'key' and the time you say is very important too!!

And Jools mentioned the car at the showgrounds and though I was dismissive. Go Jools!

 

[itsthevibe]

Evening all Although the site would suggest I've been here all day, I have actually been busy. But the computer just stays logged in.

I've just got home, and what do I find? That Makara - bless her little cotton socks - has created a great new avatar for me. Now the image she has of me as a Jude Law character may not quite fit the reality, but her effort is really appreciated.

So I'm posting this to test out that the new avatar appears OK, and I will wear it with pride - thank you Makara

Now - just to stay on topic (and we gotta keep Kimster happy ) - I am still puzzled by the apparent hole in the logic.

On the one hand, we have the police saying (in the charge, if I remember correctly) that Allison was murdered at their home in Brookfield. They also say that blood found in the back of ABC's car was Allison's.

So - and here's where the logical hole is - where was the blood in the house? Did they find any? Why haven't they mentioned that? Because if the blood in the car was indeed Allison's blood - eg from a nose bleed (no injuries according to the defence) then if it was bleeding out there in the car, we should expect there to be more of the same inside the house at the site of the murder (whatever the method was).

Blood in car should = blood in house (or other murder site).

So why haven't the prosecution mentioned that, but they HAVE mentioned the blood in the car?

There seems to be a gaping hole in the logic here somewhere, and the defence are going to make a meal of it, I suspect...

Thanks again Makara

Ok - i thought that somewhere I had read that in the affidavit it said that allison was killed at the house "or other location". It did not say just the house. I remember someone posted it here a week or so ago. I got the impression police were hedging their bets about where she was actually killed, or at least they may have believed she was killed elsewhere and are not revealing it yet.

So that would explain part of your question.

Not sure if you saw my other post but I included this link about blood after smothering etc. http://forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106&Itemid=123 So in light of your question I also wonder when the blood might come from the nose and mouth after strangling or smothering. Maybe in some cases there isn't much, in others, depending on which method was used, it may ooze out after a period of time? As I mentioned before, one poster here recently said that her ex partner tried to strangle her and blood gushed out of her nose, as I recall. But maybe it doesnt always happen that way and it gradually flows out later.

Another option is she was murdered at home and there was no blood, and the blood was mainly from a hand being cut off in the car. Or, the police have a large amount of info they haven't revealed about cause of death and what was or wasn't found at the house. Or, the stains in the car aren't blood, which is possible, but it seems the police are saying it is hers so you would think they would have had it tested exhaustively.

 

[Nads]

Thank you so much Wozzle! Good luck in your sea change, how fantastic! I actually love your avatar as well, so cute!
In relation to your naming your boat, I was having a look and found this website:

http://www.namethatboat.com/popular-boat-names.htm#C

It's great! Has very clever thought out names, I like Sea Sapphire. There are hundreds to choose from, too many! It would be like trying to name a baby, quite an important task. There are names like "Occupational Hazard", "Salesman Ship", "Sea Clusion", "On The Rocks", "Anywhere But Down":waitasec "Sea Hawk", Sand Blast" and so many more! If you wanted to have a name in rememberance of Allison I'm not sure but something like "Alysun" or some other variation? Some names on the website are really clever. Good luck at naming your boat!

Love love love naming things! Luckily I've gotten to name several racehorses in my time

Think I will go tomorrow if the hearing is on then.

 

[marlywings]

Quote:
Originally Posted by marlywings
July 07, 2012

Gerard Baden-Clay has had several visitors since being jailed, including from high-profile criminal lawyers Chris Nyst and Michael Bosscher

However, it is understood only his original solicitor, Darren Mahony, has been retained, along with barrister Peter Davis SC

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/q...-1226419399042


What I don't understand here is that the journalist for the Herald Sun link by Berry is by a Courier Mail reporter which is the same MSM Marly linked too as well.

Courier Mail & Herald Sun are both owned by News Ltd...they link to each other.

Fairfax owns Sydney Morning Herald & Brisbane Times....same as above...they link to each other.

 

[KG1]

So you think the following won't be happening tomorrow??...

The defendant’s first day in court is called the ‘mention’ date, which they must not miss.

There are no witnesses at the first mention and the magistrate makes all decisions based on the information presented.

What happens
The first mention may proceed as follows:

•when the magistrate is ready, the depositions clerk calls the defendant into the courtroom
•the deposition clerk will call ‘all rise’ as the magistrate enters and sits at the bench
•the prosecutor then stands and reads out the charges against the defendant
•the magistrate asks the defendant ‘how do you plead, guilty or not guilty?’ and the defence lawyer (or the defendant) will stand and respond

http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/justi...ourt/magistrates-court/the-first-mention-date

What has been posted above from the Qld Govt Courts and Tribunals, does not conflict with what I said in my post.
The defendant can attend via video conference, not necessarily in person.
In point 4 above, the defence lawyer or the defendant can answer that the plea is reserved. That means that no plea is entered at this time, but held until another time.

Posting a bit more from the same website:-

Indictable offences
If the defendant pleads guilty to a minor indictable offence, the magistrate can decide the penalty at the first mention or will set a date for a sentence hearing.

For other indictable offences the magistrate will set a committal hearing to determine if there is enough evidence to send the defendant to trial in either the Supreme Court or District Court.

Further mentions
A magistrate may set other ‘mentions’ before a summary hearing to confirm each side has sufficient evidence, organised witnesses and the defendant has finalised their plea.

Hope this clarifies.

 

[DunnoZo]

* Not intending to be rude, and I understand some people not interested in reading through pages of personal input, but there is something powerful about what is happening in this group. If it helps just one person gain their respect and strength to walk away from someone who might be hurting them, it is worth spending time here. MOO. May I suggest any posts with personal anecdotes may be marked with an * so those who don't care to read can skip over them? Dunno...

Jools, what exactly do yo mean by "self imposed silence?"

 

[BJsleuth]

Ok - i thought that somewhere I had read that in the affidavit it said that allison was killed at the house "or other location". It did not say just the house. I remember someone posted it here a week or so ago. I got the impression police were hedging their bets about where she was actually killed, or at least they may have believed she was killed elsewhere and are not revealing it yet.

So that would explain part of your question.

Not sure if you saw my other post but I included this link about blood after smothering etc. http://forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106&Itemid=123 So in light of your question I also wonder when the blood might come from the nose and mouth after strangling or smothering. Maybe in some cases there isn't much, in others, depending on which method was used, it may ooze out after a period of time? As I mentioned before, one poster here recently said that her ex partner tried to strangle her and blood gushed out of her nose, as I recall. But maybe it doesnt always happen that way and it gradually flows out later.

Another option is she was murdered at home and there was no blood, and the blood was mainly from a hand being cut off in the car. Or, the police have a large amount of info they haven't revealed about cause of death and what was or wasn't found at the house. Or, the stains in the car aren't blood, which is possible, but it seems the police are saying it is hers so you would think they would have had it tested exhaustively.

I agree with your theory of strangulation. I am wondering if gravity could cause the blood to ooze or gush out, even if she was already deceased?

 

[minni]

Ok - i thought that somewhere I had read that in the affidavit it said that allison was killed at the house "or other location". It did not say just the house. I remember someone posted it here a week or so ago. I got the impression police were hedging their bets about where she was actually killed, or at least they may have believed she was killed elsewhere and are not revealing it yet.

So that would explain part of your question.

Not sure if you saw my other post but I included this link about blood after smothering etc. http://forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106&Itemid=123 So in light of your question I also wonder when the blood might come from the nose and mouth after strangling or smothering. Maybe in some cases there isn't much, in others, depending on which method was used, it may ooze out after a period of time? As I mentioned before, one poster here recently said that her ex partner tried to strangle her and blood gushed out of her nose, as I recall. But maybe it doesnt always happen that way and it gradually flows out later.

Another option is she was murdered at home and there was no blood, and the blood was mainly from a hand being cut off in the car. Or, the police have a large amount of info they haven't revealed about cause of death and what was or wasn't found at the house. Or, the stains in the car aren't blood, which is possible, but it seems the police are saying it is hers so you would think they would have had it tested exhaustively.

the more we delve into one possible explanation, themore questions it creates!!! I keep working through something, only to find its Ive raised 10 new possibilities!!!
for example, how did Allison get to be under the bridge??? it really appears that unless she was 'tossed' over the edge like discarded trash, that he really cant have gone down the side. so that begs the question....was she initially left upnear the camp? but that doesnt flow with the factthat police have harged GBC with interfering with a corpse specifically at Kholo Bridge,which says to me that they have placed him at the bridge


questions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[possumheart]

Love love love naming things! Luckily I've gotten to name several racehorses in my time

Think I will go tomorrow if the hearing is on then.

Hands across the water
Hands across the sky

 

[DrWatson]

Ok - i thought that somewhere I had read that in the affidavit it said that allison was killed at the house "or other location". It did not say just the house. I remember someone posted it here a week or so ago. I got the impression police were hedging their bets about where she was actually killed, or at least they may have believed she was killed elsewhere and are not revealing it yet.

So that would explain part of your question.

Not sure if you saw my other post but I included this link about blood after smothering etc. http://forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106&Itemid=123 So in light of your question I also wonder when the blood might come from the nose and mouth after strangling or smothering. Maybe in some cases there isn't much, in others, depending on which method was used, it may ooze out after a period of time? As I mentioned before, one poster here recently said that her ex partner tried to strangle her and blood gushed out of her nose, as I recall. But maybe it doesnt always happen that way and it gradually flows out later.

Another option is she was murdered at home and there was no blood, and the blood was mainly from a hand being cut off in the car. Or, the police have a large amount of info they haven't revealed about cause of death and what was or wasn't found at the house. Or, the stains in the car aren't blood, which is possible, but it seems the police are saying it is hers so you would think they would have had it tested exhaustively.

Hi ITV - blood from the mouth and nose from smothering can be either from direct trauma (eg to the nose by grip or frontal pressure) or from venous congestion. If the latter, it's usually not a lot, and very dark. And it's not that common as I understand it. However, the congestion in the lungs etc is much more common and is the usual means of diagnosis. Petechiae in the whites of the eyes - sometimes resulting in decent sized subconjunctival haemorrhages - is the other thing that's quite common in smothering. But they don't bleed to the "outside" unless there is eye trauma too.

So yes - MAYBE the blood in the car resulted from smothering, but those photos looked to show more blood than I'd expect.

 

[minni]

Ok - i thought that somewhere I had read that in the affidavit it said that allison was killed at the house "or other location". It did not say just the house. I remember someone posted it here a week or so ago. I got the impression police were hedging their bets about where she was actually killed, or at least they may have believed she was killed elsewhere and are not revealing it yet.

So that would explain part of your question.

Not sure if you saw my other post but I included this link about blood after smothering etc. http://forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106&Itemid=123 So in light of your question I also wonder when the blood might come from the nose and mouth after strangling or smothering. Maybe in some cases there isn't much, in others, depending on which method was used, it may ooze out after a period of time? As I mentioned before, one poster here recently said that her ex partner tried to strangle her and blood gushed out of her nose, as I recall. But maybe it doesnt always happen that way and it gradually flows out later.

Another option is she was murdered at home and there was no blood, and the blood was mainly from a hand being cut off in the car. Or, the police have a large amount of info they haven't revealed about cause of death and what was or wasn't found at the house. Or, the stains in the car aren't blood, which is possible, but it seems the police are saying it is hers so you would think they would have had it tested exhaustively.

i accidentally posted twice

 

[marlywings]

Ok - i thought that somewhere I had read that in the affidavit it said that allison was killed at the house "or other location". It did not say just the house. I remember someone posted it here a week or so ago. I got the impression police were hedging their bets about where she was actually killed, or at least they may have believed she was killed elsewhere and are not revealing it yet.

From bail hearing report....

June 27, 2012

The 41-year-old real estate agent has since been charged with Mrs Baden-Clay's murder at their Brookfield home on April 19.

He has also been charged with interfering with her body, by moving her to the creek where she was found.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...d-badenclay-20120626-210bz.html#ixzz2002i7Plz

 

[Blue Bottle]

I am wondering whether Allison's friends knew she was depressed because she told them. The fact that Allison's mother was not aware makes me think that it would be unlikely Allison would have told her friends.

I don't remember reading anywhere in the news where Allison's mother, her sister or friends discuss anything specifically personal about Allison other than vague generalisations.

As as I see it, we don't know what her family knew or didn't know, nor if Allison did or didn't suffer depression or what any of her problems were. Maybe they weren't aware of them all either. However, Allison's friend does allude to some 'troubles', but doesn't go into any detail.



Mrs Baden-Clay's grief-stricken parents, Geoff and Priscilla Dickie, hinted at the underlying discontent in their daughter's life in an interview with a Brisbane newspaper. Mrs Dickie said her daughter wasn't the type to complain.

''She was probably so proud,'' she said. ''She had all the stresses and strains of a 43-year-old mother of three.''

Her best friend, Kerry-Anne Walker, told the newspaper Mrs Baden-Clay ''wouldn't have wanted anybody to think she failed at anything''. ''She wanted that appearance that things were good. She always looked good, whether she felt bad on the inside, she always looked good,'' she said.

''She told me things and I should have done more.''

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/frie...e-done-more-20120504-1y489.html#ixzz201HL8NIz

 

[BJsleuth]

the more we delve into one possible explanation, themore questions it creates!!! I keep working through something, only to find its Ive raised 10 new possibilities!!!
for example, how did Allison get to be under the bridge??? it really appears that unless she was 'tossed' over the edge like discarded trash, that he really cant have gone down the side. so that begs the question....was she initially left upnear the camp? but that doesnt flow with the factthat police have harged GBC with interfering with a corpse specifically at Kholo Bridge,which says to me that they have placed him at the bridge


questions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Does the scout camp have canoes and would GBC or NBC possibly have access to them?

 

[KG1]

Evening all Although the site would suggest I've been here all day, I have actually been busy. But the computer just stays logged in.

I've just got home, and what do I find? That Makara - bless her little cotton socks - has created a great new avatar for me. Now the image she has of me as a Jude Law character may not quite fit the reality, but her effort is really appreciated.

So I'm posting this to test out that the new avatar appears OK, and I will wear it with pride - thank you Makara

Now - just to stay on topic (and we gotta keep Kimster happy ) - I am still puzzled by the apparent hole in the logic.

On the one hand, we have the police saying (in the charge, if I remember correctly) that Allison was murdered at their home in Brookfield. They also say that blood found in the back of ABC's car was Allison's.

So - and here's where the logical hole is - where was the blood in the house? Did they find any? Why haven't they mentioned that? Because if the blood in the car was indeed Allison's blood - eg from a nose bleed (no injuries according to the defence) then if it was bleeding out there in the car, we should expect there to be more of the same inside the house at the site of the murder (whatever the method was).

Blood in car should = blood in house (or other murder site).

So why haven't the prosecution mentioned that, but they HAVE mentioned the blood in the car?

There seems to be a gaping hole in the logic here somewhere, and the defence are going to make a meal of it, I suspect...

Thanks again Makara

My dear Watson, It is quite possible that she was killed outside the house, in the yard. In that case any small blood loss may remain unseen or unfound. I always remember the adjoining neighbour's dog going crazy at the fence around 10.00pm

 

[Maigret]

My dear Watson, It is quite possible that she was killed outside the house, in the yard. In that case any small blood loss may remain unseen or unfound. I always remember the adjoining neighbour's dog going crazy at the fence around 10.00pm

I know that both my dogs would have been going 'off' if a neighbour was in their backyard after dark - my two have very definite ideas about 'approved' human behaviour and we are not allowed out after dark without lights etc

 

[BreakingNews]

Don't know whether to bother going down to the courthouse tomorrow or not now, pending confirmation that the mention will be happening. I have all day off and it's only a ten minute walk there.

So wander down, then report in to us.

 

[minni]

Does the scout camp have canoes and would GBC or NBC possibly have access to them?

its quite possible, but if you could see the density of the scrub,and the steepness of the slope around the creek,you would find it hard to imagine, especially in the dark of night. if they entered the water way near little ugly creek, its not steep nor is it very overgrown, so with all the rain,there ould have been enough water to take them down,but why not just leave her at the water THERE...why take her to the bridge???