Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #33

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  • #1,121
The Hot Zone so named by QPS was near where the screams were heard and the active search zone was from Allison's house radiating out as you say ie the Hot Zone was different to the house as displayed on a map in a CM article before Allison's body was found.

I have seen many of your posts discounting theories put forward for discussion. Based on your verified expertise can you give us a summary of the circumstances and events of Allison's murder in your opinion?

Fergie, from what I can recall the Hot Zone was established because of the triangulation hits from Allison's phone. It was later reported that her phone was supposedly within a 150m radius of her house.
 
  • #1,122
Here are some photos of the Little Ugly Creek that was running yesterday due to 3 days of rain during the week.

This creek is down a slope at the front end of Wirrabara Road and the 3 houses are further along the road and up a sharp rise and around a bend.

It is like being down in a small ravine/gully. IMO

Thanks for taking the time to do this Mani.. I really do believe it more likely that Allison could have been left there and washed down to where she was found. It just seems to make more sense, much more secluded road than Mt Crosby Road and Kholo bridge. Also taking into account the howling dogs that have been mentioned.

MOO
 
  • #1,123
It would be possible that his defence team could say he was looking up the fifth amendment and self-incrimination in regard to declaring himself bankrupt perhaps after advice from his Financial Adviser...?

Fifth amendment and self-incrimination is terminology which can also be used in bankruptcy...

ANything is possible. However I think it could be argued that declaring himself bankrupt would not have solved his debt issues, as much of it appeared to be in non official 'gentlemans deals', it would not get him out of those. So the motive for financial gain from Allisons life insurance, to clear his debts, would still be there. IMO
 
  • #1,124
Don't be too hard on TM, she may turn out to be a quasi-heroine in this crime. We had a highly publicized case in California called the Lacy Peterson case. This case reminds me of it often. The husband-perp had a mistress named Amber Frey and she became the star witness. Amber secured the husband's spot on death row.
 
  • #1,125
Have a think about this. The FaceTime call was made 12.30am. The BCs are probably in bed asleep. What other reason to be up at that time? (Unless contacted earlier on Allison's still apparently missing mobile). Now something goes unexpected and awry with Allison & GBC calls the mobile.

Some people sleep with the mobile beside bed like I do but most older folks do not as they're not as addicted to their phones as we are. The phone I'd say must have rung for a while to even be answered by NBC in the middle of thr might, especially if not in the bedroom. If it was beside the bed it may have been answered quickly perhaps but again many don't have their phone beside bed.

So if out in kitchen for example and OW was there she may have answered it quicker as it is also likely that the BCs being older may not have even heard it ringing. Not saying theyre deaf but senses often slow down as you age. Another point is this. Most older people don't even have FaceTime set up on their iphones. It's very interesting GBC and NBC did. In fact the question is why, unless you had something weird going on, would you even use that mode?. To call FaceTime you have to select it usually on your iPhone. Meaning it definitely is an intentional act.

I just find it odd that older BCs were so techno savvy and even answered the call at that hour. For many older parents if you rang At that time of the night it'd ring out before they got out of bed, if heard at all. Necessitating a call back as clearly something was up in the middle of the night if the phone is ringing. But perhaps it was beside the bed. I wonder if the BCs phone records were checked? And also, Allison's phone service even without her phone would be able to see when/who her last calls were to.

Interesting thoughts. Mind you if my phone was out in the kitchen and I was asleep I would not hear it ringing to answer it in time I don't think- and I am not in the age bracket of BC elders. They may well have slept with it beside the bed. But also perhaps on this night they were expecting a call?? ;)

MOO
 
  • #1,126
It would be good to know the dynamics of GBC's individual relationships with each of his family members. Was he a mummy's boy? Did he do as he was told without question, like a good boy scout? or was he defiant? Is he younger or older Than Olivia, making her big sister who he adored, or little sister who he wasnt really close to? does the mother rule the roost?Are they always tightlipped or just since the murder? Is their family a monarchy, or a democracy?

I certainly assume to know half of these answers, but they are all eally guesses. If we knew a bit more, I think we could definitely investigate further any likely chances of assistance or cover ups involving other family members or not?

Also, Summer Breeze, we have actively been discussing NBC as a POI for a while now. Earlier, we had many suspicions about all the family, but at soe point, we dropped off on the others and just focused on NBC. Are we not able to consider OW again? If we MOO our way through and just toss ideas around? We arent injecting a new name or mistress or someone into the mix thats never been interviewed by police before?
 
  • #1,127
Sorry Kimster, thought Summer Breeze was on, can you check my question re discussing old POI that have been interviewed?
 
  • #1,128
Sorry, eating breakfast. (chomp chomp)

Early on, LE suspected more than one person's involvement and that's why I let you guys speculate. Didn't they say there will not be any more arrests now, though?

I need a link to make a decision on this.
 
  • #1,129
  • #1,130
Sorry, eating breakfast. (chomp chomp)

Early on, LE suspected more than one person's involvement and that's why I let you guys speculate. Didn't they say there will not be any more arrests now, though?

I need a link to make a decision on this.

Late here, so sorry, I'm sleepy. But I think for most of us the comments from police, and the talk of possible immunity to another person(accomplice) has led us to believe another arrest may come at some point. I have no links as I am about off to bed, and not really any theory on OW, though have found the discussion really interesting.
 
  • #1,131
Sorry, eating breakfast. (chomp chomp)

Early on, LE suspected more than one person's involvement and that's why I let you guys speculate. Didn't they say there will not be any more arrests now, though?

I need a link to make a decision on this.

No worries Kimmi,thats easy...... I am 'lord of the link'...........oh hang on a minute, if by 'lord of the link' I mean useless linker, then yes I am 'lord of the link'
 
  • #1,132
Well, the way I look at it is that we have a very small number of facts - only those that have been confirmed in the MSM or that came out at the bail hearing.

So - there are many theories that have been put forward, and some of those theories may well be either close to the mark, or contain portions of the truth.

But - and this, unfortunately, is where my professional training kicks in - I try to look at what we KNOW (as opposed to what we think) and then try to work around that. I tend to try and think logically, and along evidence-based lines. The way we do in my professional life.

So I tend to read, then discount, some of the "wilder", more "out-there" theories that are based purely on "what if?" scenarios. Or on pure imagination or supposition. There is also a lot of emotive comment made, which is all fine, but doesn't really help in progressing towards a solution.

So, if we take ONLY the known facts, including where the body was found, it really doesn't amount to a lot that hangs together. Even the blood in the back of the car doesn't help us a lot, because the only other thing we know is that the defence allege that the only injury was the chipped tooth.

We have a person reported missing by her husband. We have a history of affairs. We have some very strange behaviour by the husband and his family. We have blood - apparently Allison's - in the back of one of the cars, but of an age that can't be determined that we know of.

We have the body of Allison found purely by chance, at a location which introduces a whole new set of factors - the proximity to the scout camp (given the BC's close ties to the scouts), the state of the body apparently giving the police some clues (but WE don't know what those are).

We have reports of screams somewhere along Rafting Ground Rd (which, by chance, happens to be the shortest route from the BC house to both the BC Seniors' house, and also to the road leading to Kholo Creek). But, as can be seen from posts over the last few days, there is some disagreement as to WHERE exactly those screams originated, given that the house of the man who reported them is quite some distance from Rees Way.

Apart from that - we really don't have too many facts.

There are all sorts of unconfirmed partial facts, such as NBC sitting at one of the bus stops near the roundabout at Kenmore. We have the very strange focus by the police on that same roundabout - but we have no idea why, exactly.

So - lots of guesses, lots of maybes, lots of character assessments, lots of presumptions, lots of - yes, sleuthing. And a lot of it is good stuff.

But - we still come back to the basic problem - we don't have anywhere NEAR enough facts on which to base theories. That's why I have posted a couple of times that unexpected twists should not come as a surprise.

As to MY theory? I don't have one. I'm deliberately trying NOT to have one.

Now the police have got a LOT more facts than we do, and they seem pretty convinced that GBC did it. But how, why, where? I don't even know whether THEY know it all yet.

And of course, there HAS to remain the possibility that GBC may NOT have done it... He may have been up to no good in all sorts of ways, and he may indeed have been up to some mischief on that night - about which he may want to say nothing and hence his silence and refusal to cooperate.

But that is about as far as my summary of things goes at the moment. I know that my continuing to harp on about reverting to the facts can rub some people the wrong way, but really, isn't that what real sleuthing is all about? ;)

Sorry for the long post. Just off to get some work-related stuff prepared for tomorrow, so will be missing in action for a couple of hours. Or hiding behind the sofa ducking from the incoming flak..... :truce:

I agree we need more facts but disagree with your interpretation of what real sleuthing is about. When detectives are 'sleuthing' they are gathering information in the process of obtaining facts. Some facts are ascertained quickly, but others have to be determined by a process of investigation. Some of that investigating is done on rumours or hearsay. They speculate on how plausible the rumour or hearsay might be, and begin to investigate, to attempt to verify what theyve been told. So on their whiteboard in the incident room they put up everything that is proven fact, and then they see where the gaps are, and where they have information that has to be checked out. Of, course, unlike us, there are staff or other police officers to do the checking. Gradually the put the pieces of their case together.

So I think we are doing real sleuthing just like the detectives - except we have some critical elements holding us back. We don't have the time or the authority to do all the checking required, essentially we are the dead end at which information stops. However on occasions there are a few things we can lawfully do, such as examine the area around the Kholo Bridge,

I think there is some good sleuthing happening here, and i dont see anything wrong with speculating on what might have happened, or why one, at this stage, wouldnt want to - isn't that the point of being here? It's not as if we are going to arrest or sentence anyone based on the information so why not give our theories a go and speculate about what might have happened, and which rumours are more credible than others? Isn't that the point?
 
  • #1,133
In reading what LE has released and what the MSM has reported about TM being a mistress, I think TM or another mistress would be the one getting immunity - IF immunity has been reported. I don't remember seeing anything reported about immunity though. I just know that they were asking about two cars seen on the bridge, one matching GBC's. If the other matches OW's, then you can mention that looks suspicious, but that's as far as it can go. Accusing her of being an accomplice is not allowed on WS.
 
  • #1,134
I agree we need more facts but disagree with your interpretation of what real sleuthing is about. When detectives are 'sleuthing' they are gathering information in the process of obtaining facts. Some facts are ascertained quickly, but others have to be determined by a process of investigation. Some of that investigating is done on rumours or hearsay. They speculate on how plausible the rumour or hearsay might be, and begin to investigate, to attempt to verify what theyve been told. So on their whiteboard in the incident room they put up everything that is proven fact, and then they see where the gaps are, and where they have information that has to be checked out. Of, course, unlike us, there are staff or other police officers to do the checking. Gradually the put the pieces of their case together.

So I think we are doing real sleuthing just like the detectives - except we have some critical elements holding us back. We don't have the time or the authority to do all the checking required, essentially we are the dead end at which information stops. However on occasions there are a few things we can lawfully do, such as examine the area around the Kholo Bridge,

I think there is some good sleuthing happening here, and i dont see anything wrong with speculating on what might have happened, or why one, at this stage, wouldnt want to - isn't that the point of being here? It's not as if we are going to arrest or sentence anyone based on the information so why not give our theories a go and speculate about what might have happened, and which rumours are more credible than others? Isn't that the point of being here?
good post Dr Watson, and good point made regarding sleuthing here Vibey!
 
  • #1,135
Don't be too hard on TM, she may turn out to be a quasi-heroine in this crime. We had a highly publicized case in California called the Lacy Peterson case. This case reminds me of it often. The husband-perp had a mistress named Amber Frey and she became the star witness. Amber secured the husband's spot on death row.

I feel inclined to be hard on her purely for the reason she had an ongoing affair with GBC, while working in the same Real Estate office as Allison. So basically right in front of Allison, and possibly chatting to Allison at work knowing Allison had no idea. I can't stand people like this. And apparently they were seen out to dinner together etc, and apparently the staff at the agency also knew. Imagine how allison would have felt when she found out, looking back on her time at the C21 office and thinking of all the scenarios where they might have slipped away for a tryst, or the times she might have been nice to TM and had interactions with her, only to discover later she was betraying her all along. I'm sure Allisons life would have had less pain if TM hadn't had the affair. I know he had others but it appears TM was the 'main' one.

I dont care how much info shes given police now, i dont see that as being a hero, it's her duty. No concessions from me. that's for sure. That said, i spend little time discussing her on here.
 
  • #1,136
Sorry, eating breakfast. (chomp chomp)

Early on, LE suspected more than one person's involvement and that's why I let you guys speculate. Didn't they say there will not be any more arrests now, though?

I need a link to make a decision on this.

I'm not sure about LE saying there would be no more arrests now. If they did say something like that, I think it was open to interpretation in the way it was worded, just like quite a few other comments they have made have been. Sorry I can't help you further. It might take some time for our 'Link Queens' to help you as it's 2am here and most are in bed - which is where I am heading now.

I really wish we had some more information, it's getting me down.
 
  • #1,137
I feel inclined to be hard on her purely for the reason she had an ongoing affair with GBC, while working in the same Real Estate office as Allison. So basically right in front of Allison, and possibly chatting to Allison at work knowing Allison had no idea. I can't stand people like this. And apparently they were seen out to dinner together etc, and apparently the staff at the agency also knew. Imagine how allison would have felt when she found out, looking back on her time at the C21 office and thinking of all the scenarios where they might have slipped away for a tryst, or the times she might have been nice to TM and had interactions with her, only to discover later she was betraying her all along. I'm sure Allisons life would have had less pain if TM hadn't had the affair. I know he had others but it appears TM was the 'main' one.

I dont care how much info shes given police now, i dont see that as being a hero, it's her duty. No concessions from me. that's for sure. That said, i spend little time discussing her on here.

VERY true and I need to apologize. I missed a HUGE component in my equation and that was that Amber Frey didn't know Scott Peterson was married and that Lacy was pregnant. :doh:

Calling TM a possible heroine in this case was way off base of me, IMO.

ETA: I did say "quasi" heroine, so I'll stop beating myself up now. :angel:
 
  • #1,138
Yeah, I didn't think she'd had much to say after the bail hearing either.
And yes, if he fed her a load of rubbish then she would have had a rude awakening. I just find it odd that she's not 'out there' anymore.

I think the lawyers would have told her to take the fifth and remain silent.
 
  • #1,139
VERY true and I need to apologize. I missed a HUGE component in my equation and that was that Amber Frey didn't know Scott Peterson was married and that Lacy was pregnant. :doh:

Calling TM a possible heroine in this case was way off base of me, IMO.

ETA: I did say "quasi" heroine, so I'll stop beating myself up now. :angel:

Kimster, don't you wish you'd made me that 'footinmouth' emoticon now*;)
 
  • #1,140
VERY true and I need to apologize. I missed a HUGE component in my equation and that was that Amber Frey didn't know Scott Peterson was married and that Lacy was pregnant. :doh:

Calling TM a possible heroine in this case was way off base of me, IMO.

ETA: I did say "quasi" heroine, so I'll stop beating myself up now. :angel:

I think LE would have had a harder time making the case without her for sure. She could have clammed up as GBC's family did and i'd be more disappointed if she'd done that. I think in the early days she was a suspect. Her co-operation was IMO why LE made the comment there would be no further arrests, but that was before the 12.20am Facetime call GBC made to NBC came to light. LE haven't said that changes anything but they haven't said it doesn't either.
 
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