Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #33

[linette]

I really can't imagine OW being happy to be involved in the cover up of a murder, even if it was her own brother. She would be placing her brother over her husband and children. If it were my brother I would tell him, "I love you but I have a family of my own who need me. I am not risking my freedom for you. Man up and admit your guilt and take your punishment"
IMO

... unless she was thinking more of covering up hopefully to protect the family name. She may have thought they could cover it well enough to get away with it.

 

[pulpfiction]

If you do some searches on NBC on the net you will very quickly realise that he is more than techno savvy, so for me this theory doesn't fly.

Yes and GBC was a real estate agent...but not a very goid one as he rented an ordinary house and was in truckloads of debt. I'm aware of NBC stuff on the net. I guess it just goes to prove that it DOESN'T in fact matter what is out there publicly. He was still the idiot who along with his son didn't bother much with knowing there is indeed easy determination to be had with respect to phones being unplugged/replugged and FaceTime calls being registered. Likewise he's none too bright forgetting about CCTV footage if it was in fact him at the supposed bus shelter. To me he ain't too tech savvy at all I'm afraid.

 

[louisepiglet]

... unless she was thinking more of covering up hopefully to protect the family name. She may have thought they could cover it well enough to get away with it.

You may well be right linette. I think I tend to think "what would I do" in a given situation. I don't think I could live the rest of my life knowing I had helped to cover up a murder.

 

[marlywings]

Ooh a very interesting post by Hawkins from back in the time machine...

#703 05-08-2012, 02:42 PM
Hawkins
Registered User Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 152

[Quote:]
Originally Posted by Obsessor
GBC with visible scratches on his face,You can see them here...I hope..

Police can't just photogrpah or order the examination of a person. They need a warrant or consent. His lawyers will have resisted. A refusal to submit to such an examination without a warrant cannot later be used as evidence of a consciousness of guilt on the part of an accused. Usually a forensic pathologist will look for signs of defensive wounds on the corpse and investigators will look for possible defensive wounds on suspects. If GBC has consented to examination then they will have photographed the alleged scratches and measured them, noting the depth at each end and making calculations as to the force and angle of the object(s) which caused the trauma. The data from these examinations can often give a very reliable indication as to the height of the person who inflicted the wounds and whether they were offensive or defensive. Facial and torso scratches are very often seen on assailants who strangle a person either by hand or by means of a ligature. There are very often deeper lacerations on the scalp under the hair. This is less often the case where the strangulation takes place on the ground, but not unheard of. If done while standing up, rater than prone, the assailant wil have had both hands occupied and not have been able to use their kness to restraint the victim's arms. Apart from DNA evidence under the nails of the deceased, there can also be nail polish and other chemicals found in the scratches. Without a ligature it takes quite a while to asppyxiate someone and the panic reflex can give the victim enormous strength from adrenlaine release. If strangled while standing up, there can often also be bruises around the legs and groin of the assailant from blows from the victim's legs.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7885026#post7885026"]Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, 43, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 - #4 - Page 29 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[Thinking]

I have a couple of different ideas running through my head, but if I'm really honest I can only see that GBC murdered his wife alone, no help with that, not even help with the planning etc.
Though I do think either his father or Olivia helped after the fact. I was sure it was the father at first, not sure now. Regardless of who did what, they would have to be pretty sure now that GBC did it.
Does anyone know why OW has been so quiet of late? Or have I missed a couple of things?

She hasnt been seen since her shell shocked reaction after the bail hearing, I don't think.

I wonder if she did "assist" that night but was told some bs story by her brother as to what happened and the circumstances. If this is how it went, some of that evidence at the bail hearing would likely have floored her. Only a suggestion, OMO.

 

[linette]

You may well be right linette. I think I tend to think "what would I do" in a given situation. I don't think I could live the rest of my life knowing I had helped to cover up a murder.

Me either. What we would do if we had time to sit back and think things through could be very different from a situation flung upon us. If she helped under those circumstances, I'd say she's regretting it now. After a call from her brother the first thought could have been "Oh no, we can't let anyone know what happened." ... then realising later that it was a dumb idea.

 

[linette]

She hasnt been seen since her shell shocked reaction after the bail hearing, I don't think.

I wonder if she did "assist" that night but was told some bs story by her brother as to what happened and the circumstances. If this is how it went, some of that evidence at the bail hearing would likely have floored her. Only a suggestion, OMO.

Yeah, I didn't think she'd had much to say after the bail hearing either.
And yes, if he fed her a load of rubbish then she would have had a rude awakening. I just find it odd that she's not 'out there' anymore.

 

[Thinking]

Thinking, that picture Mani posted of little ugly, that shows the water flowing under it? well exactly under the bridge there, could be a possibility so obvious its not considered, if you know what i mean. it would have been so simple and easy. the creek would have been dry at the time? i think

Thanks minni, yes that does make sense. Very interesting stuff.

 

[DrWatson]

A running chronology of what I think we know definitely (ie that can be substantiated by either the police, public statements by friends and or other links)
Please feel free to add subtract or correct.

Thanks for that Rational - very well done indeed.

Now we can see perhaps just WHY the prosecution case is, as they themselves stated, circumstantial - at least at this stage. I think they, and the judge, described the case as "circumstantial but compelling" as I recall.

On balance, I can see why GBC is the main suspect, and the one under arrest. I have to reiterate too that I think he is the most likely culprit, based on what we do know.

But - the "how", the "where", the "what happened next", the whole sequence of events, and even the "why" are still not known - by us at least. And, I suspect, by the QPS. I think they obviously have a much better idea than we do, but I do wonder how much actual non-circumstantial PROOF they have? Remember, they have to prove beyond reasonable doubt. The legal brains in here will have a much better idea than me as to what exactly that entails.

As I have stated previously, I can still see holes in the logic that a good (and expensive) defence team would attempt to drive a bus through. Like the age of those blood stains, just as one example. And the fact that although the police know that certain things were done on GBC's phone - they may even have his GPS tracking all the way to Kholo Creek - that still only PROVES that the phone was used for that. It doesn't PROVE that HE was the one doing it. Obviously, it is by far the most likely explanation, and in conjunction with all the other stuff, maybe won't even be raised by the defence. But it's all about proof. Evidence and facts.

Theories? Yup - keep 'em coming. I suspect that when the whole story comes out - whenever that may be - we may find that it comprises bits of many of the theories that have been put forward here on WS.

I keep waiting for that light-bulb moment, either myself, or from somebody else in here, and it may yet happen. That spark that ties several facts together - perhaps with one new fact that emerges in the future - and suddenly all is made clear. Wouldn't that be great for Allison?

 

[pulpfiction]

[quote:]
Originally Posted by Obsessor
GBC with visible scratches on his face,You can see them here...I hope..

Police can't just photogrpah or order the examination of a person. They need a warrant or consent. His lawyers will have resisted. A refusal to submit to such an examination without a warrant cannot later be used as evidence of a consciousness of guilt on the part of an accused. Usually a forensic pathologist will look for signs of defensive wounds on the corpse and investigators will look for possible defensive wounds on suspects. If GBC has consented to examination then they will have photographed the alleged scratches and measured them, noting the depth at each end and making calculations as to the force and angle of the object(s) which caused the trauma. The data from these examinations can often give a very reliable indication as to the height of the person who inflicted the wounds and whether they were offensive or defensive. Facial and torso scratches are very often seen on assailants who strangle a person either by hand or by means of a ligature. There are very often deeper lacerations on the scalp under the hair. This is less often the case where the strangulation takes place on the ground, but not unheard of. If done while standing up, rater than prone, the assailant wil have had both hands occupied and not have been able to use their kness to restraint the victim's arms. Apart from DNA evidence under the nails of the deceased, there can also be nail polish and other chemicals found in the scratches. Without a ligature it takes quite a while to asppyxiate someone and the panic reflex can give the victim enormous strength from adrenlaine release. If strangled while standing up, there can often also be bruises around the legs and groin of the assailant from blows from the victim's legs.

Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, 43, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 - #4 - Page 29 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Excellent post by that sleuther. The description is dead accurate. Pardon the analogy.

 

[pulpfiction]

Thanks for that Rational - very well done indeed.

Now we can see perhaps just WHY the prosecution case is, as they themselves stated, circumstantial - at least at this stage. I think they, and the judge, described the case as "circumstantial but compelling" as I recall.

On balance, I can see why GBC is the main suspect, and the one under arrest. I have to reiterate too that I think he is the most likely culprit, based on what we do know.
I keep waiting for that light-bulb moment, either myself, or from somebody else in here, and it may yet happen. That spark that ties several facts together - perhaps with one new fact that emerges in the future - and suddenly all is made clear. Wouldn't that be great for Allison?

It's a great effort by rational. But we are all going to be waiting for quite some time to find out how it all pieces together. That's the nature of the judicial system We surmise and that's ok. But facts are facts...I just hope some more unfold and they might in light of an accessory charge.

 

[Makara]

Exactly Pulp ! If Allison was estranged from the knucklehead I'm sure she wouldn't leave the girls alone. Surely her best girlfriends know her usual clothes, unless they were brand new. Wearing black late at night isn't a good idea. Maybe Allison would walk and talk to her girlfriends but I doubt she went for that walk late that night.
......there seemed so many’ hangers on’ with that R/Estate company, poor Allison must have seen all her hopes & dreams for her girls just slipping away.....hopefully she shared her fears with her best girlfriends. I'm sure our QPS know the answers already lease:ALL MOO

Yes, yes, yes...some logic has to prevail in terms of normality at least on Allison's part. I can only imagine what her friends must be thinking. I don't think Allison, from what I saw of her and what I hear those close to her thought, was unnecessarily a risk taker or overly impulsive. Generslly speaking most people aren't that way inclined even with the circumstances going on in her life such as they were. Can you just imagine what her friends or family would have said to her if they knew she walked at night alone? Its so odd I can't believe it. Especially after going to the hairdresser. Why would GBC even mention it? It's so preposterous it raises suspicion straight away.[/QUOTE]

Pulp, perhaps look at it this way. Allison did NOT go for a walk that night. It is a total lie by GBC and there is no need to analyse is any further. It is complete and utter BS. Taking this into account, Allison's phone didn't go for 'a walk' either. It was disposed of after Allison's disposal and more than likely as an afterthought. There was an "oh ****" moment, "her phone! Gotta get rid of her phone." GBC deliberately left the phone switched on to back up his story of Allison going for a walk and led QPS, SES and everyone else involved on a wild goose chase. B*****D!

MOO.

 

[pulpfiction]

And I agree with Dr Watson...

However, wild speculations will always exist before, during and after in these types of crimes. There are still many people who think Martin Bryant is innocent and there are some compelling theories to support it for instance [apparently!]. I however, like Dr Watson, can only think in absolutes and facts. I think many of us try to link those together to form a cohesive picture and when it is not forthcoming then that is when some of our mores interesting theories pop up. We're also influenced by odd posters and salacious gossips and rumors that throw a proverbial spanner in the works also.

 

[DrWatson]

[quote:]
Originally Posted by Obsessor
GBC with visible scratches on his face,You can see them here...I hope..

Excellent post by that sleuther. The description is dead accurate. Pardon the analogy.

Agree - in most respects the description of the pathological findings are accurate.

The only point I'd make is that it assumes that the victim is conscious at the time they were strangled.

If the victim were unconscious - either physically knocked out, or drugged, for example, then none of that would be likely to apply.

We have to keep open the possibility that Allison may have been either knocked unconscious (eg blood from nose in the car) or drugged (have the QPS actually got anything useful back from toxicology tests yet? Or did I read that there was nothing helpful?). In which case, she may not have caused any defensive wounds either to herself or to her assailant.

Just raising possibilities here - not facts. Not even a theory... fftobed:

 

[pulpfiction]

Pulp, perhaps look at it this way. Allison did NOT go for a walk that night. It is a total lie by GBC and there is no need to analyse is any further. It is complete and utter BS. Taking this into account, Allison's phone didn't go for 'a walk' either. It was disposed of after Allison's disposal and more than likely as an afterthought. There was an "oh ****" moment, "her phone! Gotta get rid of her phone." GBC deliberately left the phone switched on to back up his story of Allison going for a walk and led QPS, SES and everyone else involved on a wild goose chase. B*****D!

MOO.

Agreed. I do NOT think she walked either. I don't believe there was an "oh ***** moment" either. He knew what he was doing - it was a wild goose chase. I'm more interested in his rationale for coming up with what are very rudimentary and totally unbelievable excuses to deflect attention away from himself. This is quite telling as I've mentioned before. In my forensic psych roles the attention to detail is frequently indicative of compulsive lying and guilt. I did my thesis on it. His particular choice of lies and excuses is what interests me as he believes that they are believable, when clearly they are quite absurd.

 

[pulpfiction]

That's a very interesting idea. We now know that she was in Brookfield on that night.
MOO.

I think that is one that is just so far fetched it couldn't be true. Nobody is that nuts they'd do it. Nor would a sisters love for her brother be that strong. I don't think anyone could or would do that and could face the media and the court if they had. She presents as anxious on camera and my sources tell me isnt that bright apparently. I just can't see that. Just saying that's all

 

[pulpfiction]

Agree - in most respects the description of the pathological findings are accurate.

The only point I'd make is that it assumes that the victim is conscious at the time they were strangled.

If the victim were unconscious - either physically knocked out, or drugged, for example, then none of that would be likely to apply.

We have to keep open the possibility that Allison may have been either knocked unconscious (eg blood from nose in the car) or drugged (have the QPS actually got anything useful back from toxicology tests yet? Or did I read that there was nothing helpful?). In which case, she may not have caused any defensive wounds either to herself or to her assailant.

Just raising possibilities here - not facts. Not even a theory... fftobed:

No, toxicology findings have not been released as yet im told. Just let me get back to you on the other. Need to check something.

 

[Fuskier]

im thinking ow and nbc may not be involved in the actual planning or killing of allison, but were involved unwittingly after the fact, for example, gbc does the horrible deed, clumsily loads allison into the car (banging her head inside the car) and is so stressed and panicked he rings the face time call to nbc, probably crying and emotional, maybe ow answered the call, wakes up nbc.
they agree to meet gbc at the roundabout with either ow driving and dropping him there or nbc drives his own car and parks in the car park to wait. he may have got out to stretch his legs and wait at the bus stop. both in shock and emotional, ow may have waited with him or gone back to mind the girls.
when gbc shows up there is a fight with nbc and maybe ow, at the roundabout, leaving nbc to sit and cry, and wait for ow or gbc to pick him back up after gbc/ow are finished.
police did visit ow right before gbc was arrested. she may have told them everything with the promise of immunity. nbc knows if he remains silent he cant be implicated or implicate anyone else and it gives him time. all my opinion only.

Again, could just be. It's as possible as any other theory on here. MOO

 

[Greg]

Adding to the timeline I'm sure I read on the other site that

A. Communication between gbc and NBC occurred around 6.30am

And

B. Gbc told ow about walking routes around 6.30 am...

Why is ow in bris? is the hypocrite with her, her kids??... if not a family holiday...what is it... A week after school holidays finish?. A quick drop in to visit the fam coinciding with murder Away from the kids during school days...these questions need answering

iPad is causing me issues posting something wrong with tapatalk

 

[pulpfiction]

Agree - in most respects the description of the pathological findings are accurate.

The only point I'd make is that it assumes that the victim is conscious at the time they were strangled.

If the victim were unconscious - either physically knocked out, or drugged, for example, then none of that would be likely to apply.

We have to keep open the possibility that Allison may have been either knocked unconscious (eg blood from nose in the car) or drugged (have the QPS actually got anything useful back from toxicology tests yet? Or did I read that there was nothing helpful?). In which case, she may not have caused any defensive wounds either to herself or to her assailant.

Just raising possibilities here - not facts. Not even a theory... fftobed

The description given by that poster is very good, accurate and quite apt. The
Logical reason for them to assume Allison was conscious is most likely due to unmistakable fact that GBC had wounds that may be consistent with defensive struggle by Allison. Of course they may be caterpillar or shaving cuts tho lol.

I agree it's possible she was drugged or unconscious. May account for the chipped tooth and bleeding but perhaps not. It's possible that she was drugged then suffocated with a pillow and kids didn't hear anything either evidence of this is compromised by decomposition. As redness on forehead, nose, chin is minimized after that amount of time . And, If so, the scratches are at odds if they do not resemble those consistent with what GBC maintains. and the reported screaming and argument need consideration also.

However, the post put forth seems to focus on the very real possibility she was conscious I suspect. Based on the scratches GBC has. It's a sound theory they postulate. Only the release of toxicology will shed more light on this. I of course do not know I wasn't there and my kenmore dam fortunately wasn't involved