Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #40

[alioop]

Respectfully Doc, the time the call was made to Darren Mahoney may yeild some interesting information. It seems that somebody in the family determined that a solicitor would be needed early that morning. It is alleged that the solicitor arrived as early as 7.00am on a flight from the Gold Coast. So the phone call, time of call and who made it could yeild some important information as to informal, self-assessments made as to guilt/innocence by the family/alleged murderer early that morning. My opinion only.

It sounds strange for someone to fly to Brisbane from the gold coast. It would be quicker to drive by the time one complies with airport requirements and transport to and from the airport. There is no mention in the police brief for the first bail application of GBC having a lawyer present when the police arrived. A lawyer may have been contacted but I don't think they were on the scene at least in the morning anyway.

There was talk of OW flying down from Townsville early that morning, though we now know she was already in Brisbane, maybe that info got mixed up with the lawyer.

 

[Maigret]

It sounds strange for someone to fly to Brisbane from the gold coast. It would be quicker to drive by the time one complies with airport requirements and transport to and from the airport. There is no mention in the police brief for the first bail application of GBC having a lawyer present when the police arrived. A lawyer may have been contacted but I don't think they were on the scene at least in the morning anyway.

There was talk of OW flying down from Townsville early that morning, though we now know she was already in Brisbane, maybe that info got mixed up with the lawyer.

I was just looking at it as I am not from Queensland but yes you would drive unless he had just got in from somewhere else and was at the airport when called

And yes OW had attended the cross country that day at the school
Very strange to fly own to attend your nieces cross country I am close to mine but have never done similar

Perhaps there was a family meeting called - Allison had mentioned she had the night off to her hairdresser

It will be a very interesting court case

 

[Fuskier]

It sounds strange for someone to fly to Brisbane from the gold coast. It would be quicker to drive by the time one complies with airport requirements and transport to and from the airport. There is no mention in the police brief for the first bail application of GBC having a lawyer present when the police arrived. A lawyer may have been contacted but I don't think they were on the scene at least in the morning anyway.

There was talk of OW flying down from Townsville early that morning, though we now know she was already in Brisbane, maybe that info got mixed up with the lawyer.

Thanks Alioop. That is the reason for my use of the word 'alleged'. These facts need to be established IMO.

 

[Mountain Misst]

Good point, Fuskier. But I'm not sure if that means a lot, given that there is no argument that he or somebody DID contact Mahoney. That isn't in question, I don't think.

As to just WHO it was that contacted him, again I'm not sure that it actually makes any difference.

And of course, that call could have been made from any phone, including a landline, and from anywhere including his parents' place.

I'm still much more intrigued by Allison's phone - and how the two disparate pieces of information make any sense:

- that her phone location had been narrowed down to a 150 metre radius around the BC house, and that Police and SES were searching that area a blade of grass at a time!

- and from the latest bail hearing, that her phone had connected to the Fig Tree Pocket tower and remained on it for 13 hours until the battery died. As locals will know, the FTP tower is nowhere near the BC house, with Brookfield and Kenmore towers being much closer.

One or both of those pieces of information has to be wrong.

Protractors are working overtime Doc. Recharge your GPS as am getting warmer... Does anyone here reside in the Chapel Hill area? It's just a hop and a skip from FTP is it not?

 

[DrWatson]

Respectfully Doc, the time the call was made to Darren Mahoney may yeild some interesting information. It seems that somebody in the family determined that a solicitor would be needed early that morning. It is alleged that the solicitor arrived as early as 7.00am on a flight from the Gold Coast. So the phone call, time of call and who made it could yeild some important information as to informal, self-assessments made as to guilt/innocence by the family/alleged murderer early that morning. My opinion only.

Good points Fuskier - I hadn't thought about that - the timing of the call for legal help. Very good point.

Not sure I'd take a flight up from the coast though - it would take longer than simply driving up, by the time you go to the airport at Cooloongatta, check in, taxi, take off, land at Brisbane, taxi, disembark, then drive or be driven from the airport to Brookfield (almost an hour just that drive to Brookfield bit).

Whereas it only takes me just over an hour to drive from Brookfield to the Gold Coast - at least to the northern end where Mahoney's office is at Southport. It would take him another 30-40 mins just to drive south to the airport. Unless, of course, he has a private helicopter....

EDIT: Aha - I see Alioop raised the point about flying from the coast subsequent to the post I was replying to. Sorry for the duplication.

 

[DrWatson]

Protractors are working overtime Doc. Recharge your GPS as am getting warmer... Does anyone here reside in the Chapel Hill area? It's just a hop and a skip from FTP is it not?

Yes - Chapel Hill tower is near the ambulance station at Chapel Hill. And the Fig Tree Pocket tower is not too far away.

That's why I keep wondering about the evidence from the bail hearing where they mentioned that Allison's phone connected to the FTP cell. Do we assume from that that it was ONLY on the FTP cell? Which would, I think, narrow down the possible location of the phone considerably. The circle of coverage from the FTP tower that is NOT overlapped by neighbouring towers would not be all that big, I'd guess.

 

[alioop]

I'm still much more intrigued by Allison's phone - and how the two disparate pieces of information make any sense:

- that her phone location had been narrowed down to a 150 metre radius around the BC house, and that Police and SES were searching that area a blade of grass at a time!

- and from the latest bail hearing, that her phone had connected to the Fig Tree Pocket tower and remained on it for 13 hours until the battery died. As locals will know, the FTP tower is nowhere near the BC house, with Brookfield and Kenmore towers being much closer.

One or both of those pieces of information has to be wrong.

This is indeed a big puzzle. It could explain why the searchers couldn't find the phone within the 150m of the BC house and they would have looked very hard for it I am sure. Is there a possibility that it was moved so was actually in both locations at different times?

 

[DrWatson]

This is indeed a big puzzle. It could explain why the searchers couldn't find the phone within the 150m of the BC house and they would have looked very hard for it I am sure. Is there a possibility that it was moved so was actually in both locations at different times?

Now THAT is an excellent suggestion Alioop... Hot diggety!! Wonder if one of the "clan" or even GBC himself moved it? That could certainly explain the apparent "two places at once" thing.

Although the timing could be a bit hard to line up - if they didn't narrow the ping search down until 2 or 3 days into the search, and THEN they narrowed it to that 150m radius, that may still clash with whatever time the phone shows as connecting to the FTP cell.... Hmmm

Work still to be done on this aspect, I think...

 

[alicat]

I was just looking at it as I am not from Queensland but yes you would drive unless he had just got in from somewhere else and was at the airport when called

And yes OW had attended the cross country that day at the school
Very strange to fly own to attend your nieces cross country I am close to mine but have never done similar

Perhaps there was a family meeting called - Allison had mentioned she had the night off to her hairdresser

It will be a very interesting court case

So, was OW the witness to GBCs caterpillar incident then?

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

Good point, Fuskier. But I'm not sure if that means a lot, given that there is no argument that he or somebody DID contact Mahoney. That isn't in question, I don't think.

As to just WHO it was that contacted him, again I'm not sure that it actually makes any difference.

And of course, that call could have been made from any phone, including a landline, and from anywhere including his parents' place.

I'm still much more intrigued by Allison's phone - and how the two disparate pieces of information make any sense:

- that her phone location had been narrowed down to a 150 metre radius around the BC house, and that Police and SES were searching that area a blade of grass at a time!

- and from the latest bail hearing, that her phone had connected to the Fig Tree Pocket tower and remained on it for 13 hours until the battery died. As locals will know, the FTP tower is nowhere near the BC house, with Brookfield and Kenmore towers being much closer.

One or both of those pieces of information has to be wrong.

Are there any techs here? Could it be possible that the phone was travelling when the data connection to the Fig Tree Pocket tower began - and (although it became closer to towers nearer Brookfield before it's battery depleted) remained connected to Fig Tree Pocket tower because it did not get far enough from that towers signal to hand over to another tower?

 

[DrWatson]

Are there any techs here? Could it be possible that the phone was travelling when the data connection to the Fig Tree Pocket tower began - and (although it became closer to towers nearer Brookfield before it's battery depleted) remained connected to Fig Tree Pocket tower because it did not get far enough from that towers signal to hand over to another tower?

Good thought. But the FTP tower is nowhere near line of sight to Brookfield. There are towers at Chapel Hill, Kenmore, and Brookfield along the way, and the connection would have pinged from one to the other, as each one became the closest to the phone.

The apparent divergence of the information we have is puzzling, but I suspect that it may be that the connection to the FTP cell for 13 hours (I think it was) wasn't discovered until well after the search days, and that initial location near the BC house - which I think was done from a locator in a helicopter - may have been erroneous.

That's just one possible explanation, of course.

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

Good thought. But the FTP tower is nowhere near line of sight to Brookfield. There are towers at Chapel Hill, Kenmore, and Brookfield along the way, and the connection would have pinged from one to the other, as each one became the closest to the phone.

The apparent divergence of the information we have is puzzling, but I suspect that it may be that the connection to the FTP cell for 13 hours (I think it was) wasn't discovered until well after the search days, and that initial location near the BC house - which I think was done from a locator in a helicopter - may have been erroneous.

That's just one possible explanation, of course.

I think (but am not sure, as I am not a tech) that a phone will usually connect to the closest tower (or the tower with the strongest signal). But if a connection is current (ie ongoing phone call or data connection), it will only handover to a new tower if the signal gets far enough (or weak enough) from the original tower signal to cause the tower to instruct a new tower to make room for the connection (and then transfer it). IMO

I have also been looking for some information about the '150m search' and can only find MSM reports of this - no actual police report/interview etc. (Unfortunately I don't give MSM reports as much credence as most people do). Did any locals actually see this search taking place or know for sure that the 150m search area was actually near the BC home at Brookfield? Or could perhaps it have been an error in reporting? IMO

EDIT: And also that the search (if it did occur) was definitely for the phone? If anyone has any first hand knowledge or knows of any police interview/docs produced in court etc that can confirm this 150m phone search near the BC Brookfield home it would be much appreciated.

EDIT again: I found this information regarding cellular hand over. It is rather basic, but so is my understanding of how cellular technology works. I have no idea how weak (or if even existent) the FTP tower signal strength would be at Brookfield as I have no knowledge of it's range or power - but this information doesn't seem to discount the possibility that the phone may have remained connected to the FTP tower. Hopefully there will be a tech (or someone who knows a tech that they can ask) that can confirm or discount the possibility of the connection remaining with the FTP tower even if the phone was in Brookfield. (I agree with Dr Watson and I think that this proposition is unlikely, but is it possible?)

QUOTE:
Different cellular standards handle hand over / handoff in slightly different ways. Therefore for the sake of an explanation the example of the way that GSM handles handover is given.
There are a number of parameters that need to be known to determine whether a handover is required. The signal strength of the base station with which communication is being made, along with the signal strengths of the surrounding stations. Additionally the availability of channels also needs to be known. The mobile is obviously best suited to monitor the strength of the base stations, but only the cellular network knows the status of channel availability and the network makes the decision about when the handover is to take place and to which channel of which cell.
Accordingly the mobile continually monitors the signal strengths of the base stations it can hear, including the one it is currently using, and it feeds this information back. When the strength of the signal from the base station that the mobile is using starts to fall to a level where action needs to be taken the cellular network looks at the reported strength of the signals from other cells reported by the mobile. It then checks for channel availability, and if one is available it informs this new cell to reserve a channel for the incoming mobile. When ready, the current base station passes the information for the new channel to the mobile, which then makes the change. Once there the mobile sends a message on the new channel to inform the network it has arrived. If this message is successfully sent and received then the network shuts down communication with the mobile on the old channel, freeing it up for other users, and all communication takes place on the new channel.
Under some circumstances such as when one base transceiver station is nearing its capacity, the network may decide to hand some mobiles over to another base transceiver station they are receiving that has more capacity, and in this way reduce the load on the base transceiver station that is nearly running to capacity. In this way access can be opened to the maximum number of users. In fact channel usage and capacity are very important factors in the design of a cellular network.

http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/cellulartelecomms/cellular_concepts/handover_handoff.php

 

[Aunty]

Now THAT is an excellent suggestion Alioop... Hot diggety!! Wonder if one of the "clan" or even GBC himself moved it? That could certainly explain the apparent "two places at once" thing.

Although the timing could be a bit hard to line up - if they didn't narrow the ping search down until 2 or 3 days into the search, and THEN they narrowed it to that 150m radius, that may still clash with whatever time the phone shows as connecting to the FTP cell.... Hmmm

Work still to be done on this aspect, I think...

This may help.
When i was a teenager , I lived just off Jesmond Rd near FigtreePocket. I always used the back streets to get to Indooroopilly and Taringa.
Years later I moved to Brookfield, and I often avoided the horrible peek hour traffic (it started at the Kenmore Village roundabout and continued bumper to bumper to Toowong) by driving along my old familiar route to Indooroopilly Taringa.
I would drive from Brookfield
onto Kenmore rd,
onto Figtree Pocket rd,
past the soccer club :what: phone tower,
then at the roundabout, turn into Jesmond rd
then Kate st,
then Witten rd,
then Radnor st
Then Foxton st,
Then Westminster st, over railway line,
Right into Clarence rd ,
and up the hill to Swan rd at Taringa.
I bet the accused GBC, took this route all the time , as his business was at Taringa.
I think that's how Allisons phone was only pinged at Brookfield tower and FTP tower. ( perhaps thrown out there, along this particular route) It looks like there are no other towers , along most of that route. I googled and couldn't see any.
Wasnt it business as usual, on the very day that Allison was missing and each day after that? I think its very possible that GBC drove on that route.
Hmmmm.

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

Now THAT is an excellent suggestion Alioop... Hot diggety!! Wonder if one of the "clan" or even GBC himself moved it? That could certainly explain the apparent "two places at once" thing.

Although the timing could be a bit hard to line up - if they didn't narrow the ping search down until 2 or 3 days into the search, and THEN they narrowed it to that 150m radius, that may still clash with whatever time the phone shows as connecting to the FTP cell.... Hmmm

Work still to be done on this aspect, I think...

Another possibility is that the battery depleting was not the cause of the data connection to the FTP tower terminating. If the connection terminated (perhaps because the phone was turned off) before the battery went flat and the phone was then moved, it could explain it’s position being triangulated to the search zone at Brookfield days later.

QUOTE:
Defence barrister Peter Davis said Telstra phone records showed it was possible someone had used Mrs Baden-Clay's mobile phone in the Fig Tree Pocket area at 6.51am on April 20, the day she was reported missing by her husband.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...re-supreme-court/story-e6freoof-1226536987434

 

[DrWatson]

Good work RLTP and Aunty. Your ideas certainly merit closer testing, but the main thing that I find confusing (and this is where somebody - eg Alioop - can correct me if I'm wrong) but I thought Judge Applegarth is quoted as saying that Allison's phone connected to the FTP cell - then remained on there for 13 hours! Presumably until the battery ran flat.

Aunty's point about that back way is also a good one, but the main problem I'd have there is the hilliness of the route. Cell towers predominantly connect in line of sight (i.e. sight to the phone for radio waves - not literally "eyesight"). That route you describe, with which I'm very familiar (I used to live on Witton Rd/Radnor St MANY years ago). But when you describe turning onto Jesmond Rd - do you actually mean Jerrang St, which goes off the roundabout at the top of FTP road near the little store? Just up the hill from the FTP tower at the soccer grounds? Once you're on Jerrang St I suspect you'd drift out of range of the FTP tower as you go down the hill past Nudgee Junior school, and you'd be in the range of the Indooroopilly tower up ahead on Kate St. And while you're winding along Radnor St with that cliff on your left, I think it'd be the tower ahead on Coonan St near the bridge.

As I said - lots to consider here. All thoughts welcome. And could Alioop confirm that the judge referred to Allison's phone being on that FTP cell for 13 hours? Or was that just the report in the MSM?

EDIT: just found this:

However, Justice Applegarth said the Crown's contention that Mrs Baden-Clay was killed late on April 19 or the early hours of April 20 had been put in doubt by evidence that the 43-year-old's phone's internet service was engaged at 6.21am on April 20 and remained on for 13 hours.

Justive Applegarth said the evidence pointed to the phone being in the Fig Tree Pocket area, far away from Mr Baden-Clay.

However, the phone has never been located.

from http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/gerard-badenclay-denied-bail-20121214-2beo5.html

 

[LadyBird1]

Protractors are working overtime Doc. Recharge your GPS as am getting warmer... Does anyone here reside in the Chapel Hill area? It's just a hop and a skip from FTP is it not?

Hello Mountain Misst, Regarding finding the telephone. Don't forget the Clan went to Gold Coast shortly after for .... holiday. Priority may have been phone disposal away from location of interest.
Best wishes with search.

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

Good work RLTP and Aunty. Your ideas certainly merit closer testing, but the main thing that I find confusing (and this is where somebody - eg Alioop - can correct me if I'm wrong) but I thought Judge Applegarth is quoted as saying that Allison's phone connected to the FTP cell - then remained on there for 13 hours! Presumably until the battery ran flat.

Aunty's point about that back way is also a good one, but the main problem I'd have there is the hilliness of the route. Cell towers predominantly connect in line of sight (i.e. sight to the phone for radio waves - not literally "eyesight"). That route you describe, with which I'm very familiar (I used to live on Witton Rd/Radnor St MANY years ago). But when you describe turning onto Jesmond Rd - do you actually mean Jerrang St, which goes off the roundabout at the top of FTP road near the little store? Just up the hill from the FTP tower at the soccer grounds? Once you're on Jerrang St I suspect you'd drift out of range of the FTP tower as you go down the hill past Nudgee Junior school, and you'd be in the range of the Indooroopilly tower up ahead on Kate St. And while you're winding along Radnor St with that cliff on your left, I think it'd be the tower ahead on Coonan St near the bridge.

As I said - lots to consider here. All thoughts welcome. And could Alioop confirm that the judge referred to Allison's phone being on that FTP cell for 13 hours? Or was that just the report in the MSM?

EDIT: just found this:



from http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/gerard-badenclay-denied-bail-20121214-2beo5.html

Apparently Telstra records produced show the 13 hours.

A data connection of 13 hours could still leave an amount (if small) of charge in the battery if data was not being exchanged for much of this connection time. If the iPhone had power saving settings turned on it would darken the screen etc whilst still remaining connected.
IF the phone did stay in close vicinity of the FTP phone tower for these 13 hours that it was connected and was then turned off and taken back to Brookfield (where it was apparently pinpointed to be many days later) - this could explain the FTP connection AND the Brookfield 150m search.

 

[DrWatson]

Apparently Telstra records produced show the 13 hours.

A data connection of 13 hours could still leave an amount (if small) of charge in the battery if data was not being exchanged for much of this connection time. If the iPhone had power saving settings turned on it would darken the screen etc whilst still remaining connected.
IF the phone did stay in close vicinity of the FTP phone tower for these 13 hours that it was connected and was then turned off and taken back to Brookfield (where it was apparently pinpointed to be many days later) - this could explain the FTP connection AND the Brookfield 150m search.

Yes it could indeed. Good point. Except I'm not sure (a) where it would have been for those 13 hours, and (b) why somebody would take it back right into the middle of the search area?

That's the problem with being a medico - logic keeps creeping into the way we think! :blushing:

I'm loving the efforts to try and explain the "two places" information on Allison's iPhone. I can't explain it yet - or at least, to my satisfaction. Unless we assume that one or the other of those bits of information is just wrong. E.g. the location of the phone to Brookfield. I wonder just how accurate the ping detector is in a helicopter buzzing a search area that is full of RF from walkie-talkies, countless mobiles, and who knows what other electronic devices were being used (incl metal detectors).

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

Yes it could indeed. Good point. Except I'm not sure (a) where it would have been for those 13 hours, and (b) why somebody would take it back right into the middle of the search area?

That's the problem with being a medico - logic keeps creeping into the way we think! :blushing:

I'm loving the efforts to try and explain the "two places" information on Allison's iPhone. I can't explain it yet - or at least, to my satisfaction. Unless we assume that one or the other of those bits of information is just wrong. E.g. the location of the phone to Brookfield. I wonder just how accurate the ping detector is in a helicopter buzzing a search area that is full of RF from walkie-talkies, countless mobiles, and who knows what other electronic devices were being used (incl metal detectors).

Re (a): I think the phone could have been 1) left or held somewhere in close vicinity to the FTP tower or 2) connected to that tower when it was moving through that area and then continued the connection to that tower while it was on its way to someplace else.
Perhaps the data connection was an automatic update and went unnoticed. Perhaps the data connection was instigated to purposefully drain the battery. Even perhaps it was an innocent use of ones own phone :what: IMO
Re (b): There could be any number of reasons for taking the phone back to the middle of the search area. Perhaps it was in a vehicle and not noticed until later. Perhaps it was moved for fear it might be found. (The 'mover' may have thought it was not detectable if turned off). Perhaps there is even an innocent explanation! Why, we cannot know unless whoever was in possession of the phone at this time tells. How, we can try to find the possibilities for. IMO
I think it more likely that some of the information is incorrect than that the phone moved from FTP area to Brookfield. Perhaps the 150m search in Brookfield was for the phone was reported incorrectly. Perhaps the identification of the 150m search area was just plain wrong. But at this stage, it is also possible that the phone was in both places at different times.

 

[DrWatson]

Perhaps the identification of the 150m search area was just plain wrong. But at this stage, it is also possible that the phone was in both places at different times

Absolutely - those are the only two logical explanations as far as I can tell. One or the other.