Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #40

[marlywings]

I was always under the impression that the back of the house was level with the ground. I've only deduced this from the attached images. I have been known to be wrong at times. :what:

Thanks for reposting the photos Makara. Now I wonder if there were internal stairs...lol.

 

[DrWatson]

From Courier Mail report...


bruising on her interior chest wall

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...re-supreme-court/story-e6freoof-1226536987434

From allioop's report...

""He said she had a subdural heamatoma and bruising on interior left wall of her chest resulting from a mild degree of force.""

Perhaps Allison was standing a couple of steps down from the top step with GBC at the top....one kick at her chest from him could have been quite easily enough for her to fall backwards down the stairs.

Yup - saw that, Marly. That's why I just thought it sounded very odd. The actual quote is:

Mr Boyle said the pathologist indicated the possibility Mrs Baden-Clay sustained a subdural haemorrhage, a chipped tooth and bruising on her interior chest wall, indicating an impact on the chest region of "a mild degree of force".

It doesn't mention "LEFT" chest wall. So the use of the word "interior" could easily just be a mis-reading or mis-hearing of the word "anterior" - which makes much more sense.

In all the years I've been looking inside chests that have sustained varying degrees of trauma, I can't recall any where there has been contusion on the inside WITHOUT either rib fractures or external bruising or both. It's usually the cracked rib that tears the intercostal vessels leading to the bleeding -> contusion.

Whereas ANTERIOR chest wall - i.e. the FRONT - makes much more sense if someone had hit, punched, kicked, kneed, etc Allison there. You'd find "bruising on the anterior chest wall". That would be a much more likely thing to say clinically.

But - like Makara - I've been known to be wrong occasionally :floorlaugh:

The committal hearing should clarify it. lease:

 

[Makara]

Thanks for reposting the photos Makara. Now I wonder if there were internal stairs...lol.

:floorlaugh:

 

[alioop]

I have gone back to my notes and I think I did misreport the word "interior" as my writing of that word was very scribbly and I was not comfortable with writing that word in my notes on ws as it didn't feel quite right. Now that Doc has said it is likely to be "anterior" I am pretty sure that is the correct word that Danny Boyle said at the bail hearing. Thanks Doc for pointing that out and sorry for my misreporting of that important word.

Edit, I wrote down the words " left wall of chest" in my notes at the bail hearing. So correcting my scribble of "interior" it reads " bruising on anterior left wall of chest"

 

[marlywings]

Yup - saw that, Marly. That's why I just thought it sounded very odd. The actual quote is:



It doesn't mention "LEFT" chest wall. So the use of the word "interior" could easily just be a mis-reading or mis-hearing of the word "anterior" - which makes much more sense.

In all the years I've been looking inside chests that have sustained varying degrees of trauma, I can't recall any where there has been contusion on the inside WITHOUT either rib fractures or external bruising or both. It's usually the cracked rib that tears the intercostal vessels leading to the bleeding -> contusion.

Whereas ANTERIOR chest wall - i.e. the FRONT - makes much more sense if someone had hit, punched, kicked, kneed, etc Allison there. You'd find "bruising on the anterior chest wall". That would be a much more likely thing to say clinically.

But - like Makara - I've been known to be wrong occasionally :floorlaugh:

The committal hearing should clarify it. lease:

But is it possible, with a "mild degree of force" to have bruising on interior chest wall with no broken ribs?? If there'd been external bruising this may not have been apparent due to level of decomp??

ETA:...just noticed alioops correction so I'll ask would bruising on anterior chest wall still be apparent due to the level of decomp....if soft tissue damage wasn't apparent??

 

[Liadan]

I was always under the impression that the back of the house was level with the ground. I've only deduced this from the attached images. I have been known to be wrong at times. :what:

View attachment 28841

View attachment 28842

View attachment 28843

From the picture of the patio above you could imagine and this is just a guess that the ground slopes down towards the property boundary. Just since the house is high one one side and not on the other. Maybe there were stairs down on that slope but given the general look of the house I would say it wasn't likely to have 'nice to have' features.

 

[DrWatson]

But is it possible, with a "mild degree of force" to have bruising on interior chest wall with no broken ribs?? If there'd been external bruising this may not have been apparent due to level of decomp??

Indeed, Marly. It's possible. But the only way I can think that it would be the case is if, as you say, the level of decomposition of the external tissues makes identification of a bruise impossible.

It's just that the phrase "bruising of the interior chest wall" sounds odd to anyone with clinical ears...

Roll on the committal hearing - then we'll find out! Might have to have another word with my friend at Forensic Sciences (the old John Tonge centre), now that those details are in the public arena. He may be a bit more prepared to spill the beans, or at least clarify this bit!

But he's away until about the 2nd week in January I think.

 

[alioop]

Possible she could have been knocked to the ground on the back patio, then subdued by a knee pressing on her heart area, whilst being suffocated/strangled. It appears she fought for her life, scratching underarms, face and chest. Remember 'Scraps' the dog barking incessantly at the back fence bordering the Baden-Clay rented property? The owner stated this was unusual for the dog. My opinion only.

I agree Fuskier that is very possible and also fits with all 6 species of plant found on Allison's head, arms and hair found on that rear patio. How could she get them on those parts of her body unless she was lying down.

 

[DrWatson]

ETA:...just noticed alioops correction so I'll ask would bruising on anterior chest wall still be apparent due to the level of decomp....if soft tissue damage wasn't apparent??

In a word - yes. Especially at the microscopic level. A good whack on the front of your chest, or a knee to hold you down, would leave changes there that could be identified even post-mortem and after several days.

 

[DrWatson]

I agree Fuskier that is very possible and also fits with all 6 species of plant found on Allison's head, arms and hair found on that rear patio. How could she get them on those parts of her body unless she was lying down.

Very good point Alioop - I'd thought the same. Then it occurred to me that she may simply have been dragged that way.

Wonder if the police found any drag marks in the ground? Although it had been pretty dry, as I recall - until the extreme rainfall just before her body was found.

 

[alioop]

Indeed, Marly. It's possible. But the only way I can think that it would be the case is if, as you say, the level of decomposition of the external tissues makes identification of a bruise impossible.

It's just that the phrase "bruising of the interior chest wall" sounds odd to anyone with clinical ears...

Roll on the committal hearing - then we'll find out! Might have to have another word with my friend at Forensic Sciences (the old John Tonge centre), now that those details are in the public arena. He may be a bit more prepared to spill the beans, or at least clarify this bit!

But he's away until about the 2nd week in January I think.

Doc can you give us a summary of your thoughts if the autopsy report states "bruising on anterior left chest wall" now that I am sure that is what Danny Boyle actually said.

 

[Liadan]

I agree Fuskier that is very possible and also fits with all 6 species of plant found on Allison's head, arms and hair found on that rear patio. How could she get them on those parts of her body unless she was lying down.

I am sure I have missed this so please excuse my question but is there any info about what those plants were?

Also the garden is so unkempt - he could have pushed her backwards (overpowered her) onto anything that had been lying around to get that head injury.

 

[alioop]

Very good point Alioop - I'd thought the same. Then it occurred to me that she may simply have been dragged that way.

Wonder if the police found any drag marks in the ground? Although it had been pretty dry, as I recall - until the extreme rainfall just before her body was found.

Possible that he could have dragged her but if she was dead he could have carried her as she was much smaller than him. Either way it is sounding like she was lying on the patio either before, during or after death. I wonder if there was any evidence of clean up of the patio?

 

[marlywings]

Very good point Alioop - I'd thought the same. Then it occurred to me that she may simply have been dragged that way.

Wonder if the police found any drag marks in the ground? Although it had been pretty dry, as I recall - until the extreme rainfall just before her body was found.

Yes that's my thoughts as well...that she was dragged along the ground to the car.

 

[marlywings]

I am sure I have missed this so please excuse my question but is there any info about what those plants were?

Also the garden is so unkempt - he could have pushed her backwards (overpowered her) onto anything that had been lying around to get that head injury.

This is from the bail hearing report...


In arguing against the suicide theory, Mr Boyle said the crown also had new evidence which he believed showed Mrs Baden-Clay's body was moved to the area near Kholo Creek where it had been found.

He said an expert had identified six species of plant on Mrs Baden-Clay's body, clothes and hair, only two of which were found in the area where she was found.

But he said all six had been identified in the area surrounding Mrs Baden-Clay's Brookfield Road home and patio.

"That is consistent [with the Crown's theory] with being moved from the house after death and then being placed in the area near Kholo Creek...it flies in the face if the suicide theory.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...denied-bail-20121214-2beo5.html#ixzz2GPle8795

 

[alioop]

I am sure I have missed this so please excuse my question but is there any info about what those plants were?

Also the garden is so unkempt - he could have pushed her backwards (overpowered her) onto anything that had been lying around to get that head injury.

Liadan, unless it is in the written documents filed in the bail hearing, there has been no mention of the actual species of plant material, just that there were 6, only 2 of which were found at Kholo Creek. It will be presented at the committal though I think as it very important evidence.

 

[DrWatson]

Doc can you give us your thoughts if the autopsy report states "bruising on anterior left chest wall" now that I am sure that is what Danny Boyle actually said.

Yes - that would be on the chest wall underlying or adjacent to the left breast.

If that is indeed what the autopsy report says, then that would be consistent with either an impact force (e.g. punch, kick, solid object, etc) or pressure force (e.g. knee holding her down).

Of course we can't rule out the other possibility that Allison may have fallen against something such as the corner of a table, bedside table, verandah rail, etc and caused the bruising that way.

The impact could be something hitting Allison, or Allison hitting something. If you see what I mean.

 

[Groundedgirl]

Is there any indication in the autopsy as to whether the Injuries occurred pre or post death. I remember one of the arguments in the Ramsey case was that the head trauma had no excessive bleeding and therefore occurred after death, thus disproving that the parents hit her or pushed her against a hard object.

What about a persons knee on a chest during the act of suffocation. As it can take some time to suffocate An individual, many minutes I believe, then this may be plausible.. Would think exterior bruising though if this was the case....random thoughts........

I think the key evidence will come from the processes of gbc and others during that night and morning. Too much thinking, too little time, there must be inconsistencies.

 

[alioop]

Yes - that would be on the chest wall underlying or adjacent to the left breast.

If that is indeed what the autopsy report says, then that would be consistent with either an impact force (e.g. punch, kick, solid object, etc) or pressure force (e.g. knee holding her down).

Of course we can't rule out the other possibility that Allison may have fallen against something such as the corner of a table, bedside table, verandah rail, etc and caused the bruising that way.

The impact could be something hitting Allison, or Allison hitting something. If you see what I mean.

Thanks Doc, and is it consistent with having no broken ribs which we know she didn't have?

 

[alioop]

Is there any indication in the autopsy as to whether the Injuries occurred pre or post death. I remember one of the arguments in the Ramsey case was that the head trauma had no excessive bleeding and therefore occurred after death, thus disproving that the parents hit her or pushed her against a hard .

What about a persons knee on a chest during the act of suffocation. As it can take some time to suffocate An individual, many minutes I believe, then this may be plausible.. Would think exterior bruising though if this was the case....random thoughts........

I think the key evidence will come from the processes of gbc and others during that night and morning. Too much thinking, too little time, there must be inconsistencies.

Re the bolded words, not that has been revealed at this stage.