Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #42

[Liadan]

Thanks for your post Makara. This vegetation has puzzled me somewhat, but have not seen it discussed in detail (maybe I missed it). From the reports that I read in the Courier mail the material was found around the head, arms and body does not comment on large amounts. The prosecution presented this as new evidence establishing Alison at Brookfield and in the area of her back patio. However, as you said she could have easily taken a walk to the back yard when she got home (probably before GBC and the girls). Or the "comfy clothes" she changed into could have been worn before and had plant material on them. We don't always wash casual clothes every day. I believe this information could be consistent with the suicide theory if Alison jumped from the bridge which was put forth by Mr Davis at the last bail application.. That of course leaves a big gap in how she actually got to the bridge but the prosecution have no evidence how GBC got to the bridge. There was no physical evidence eg. mud, plant material, photographs going through roundabouts etc. that placed GBC at Kholo either. Dr Watson could the bruising to the chest wall and even the chipped tooth be consistent with a jump from the Kholo bridge?

The assumption has been made that the "rivulets of blood" are Alison's but it appears that they were only luminol tested and as yet there has been no evidence presented of DNA confirmation. This was reported in the Courier Mail following the second bail application. This aspect of the evidence I will await with interest. Makara where was it reported that GBC had not got around to putting up the seats into an upright position before he reported Alison missing to the police? I don't disbelieve you, I just don't recall having read that anywhere.

Maybe I am grasping at straws and would, for the girls sake, not wish their father to be found guilty of their mother's murder.

I keep returning to the scratches on GBCs face. Given his personality type would he have admitted if Allison actually did scratch his face in anger? and then left the home.?? Given his past history of lying and deceipt would he have admitted to the police in the morning if this had happened?

I believe the defence will take the angle of either suicide or random attack. I think Dr Watson quite successfully debunked the overdose of Zoloft theory but, if she was upset, took extra Zoloft to ease the hurt, would suicide by a different means eg jumping off the bridge be a possibiility?

Zoloft is not something that works immediately- I am pretty sure if she had used this drug for 10 or so years she would know she was better off taking her anti anxiety meds to 'ease the hurt". Zoloft is great at anti depression but not so good at the immediacy of hurting.

 

[CaseClosed]

Thanks for your post Makara. This vegetation has puzzled me somewhat, but have not seen it discussed in detail (maybe I missed it). From the reports that I read in the Courier mail the material was found around the head, arms and body does not comment on large amounts. The prosecution presented this as new evidence establishing Alison at Brookfield and in the area of her back patio. However, as you said she could have easily taken a walk to the back yard when she got home (probably before GBC and the girls). Or the "comfy clothes" she changed into could have been worn before and had plant material on them. We don't always wash casual clothes every day. I believe this information could be consistent with the suicide theory if Alison jumped from the bridge which was put forth by Mr Davis at the last bail application.. That of course leaves a big gap in how she actually got to the bridge but the prosecution have no evidence how GBC got to the bridge. There was no physical evidence eg. mud, plant material, photographs going through roundabouts etc. that placed GBC at Kholo either. Dr Watson could the bruising to the chest wall and even the chipped tooth be consistent with a jump from the Kholo bridge?

The assumption has been made that the "rivulets of blood" are Alison's but it appears that they were only luminol tested and as yet there has been no evidence presented of DNA confirmation. This was reported in the Courier Mail following the second bail application. This aspect of the evidence I will await with interest. Makara where was it reported that GBC had not got around to putting up the seats into an upright position before he reported Alison missing to the police? I don't disbelieve you, I just don't recall having read that anywhere.

Maybe I am grasping at straws and would, for the girls sake, not wish their father to be found guilty of their mother's murder.

I keep returning to the scratches on GBCs face. Given his personality type would he have admitted if Allison actually did scratch his face in anger? and then left the home.?? Given his past history of lying and deceipt would he have admitted to the police in the morning if this had happened?

I believe the defence will take the angle of either suicide or random attack. I think Dr Watson quite successfully debunked the overdose of Zoloft theory but, if she was upset, took extra Zoloft to ease the hurt, would suicide by a different means eg jumping off the bridge be a possibiility?

My problem with this scenario is that nobody walks 14 kms to commit suicide and also that bridge is not high enough for someone to think they will for sure die if they jump off of it. Random attack is more feasible, but I am convinced he did it in a fit of rage. IMO.

 

[CaseClosed]

At this stage, I fear, really fear, that he may have committed "the perfect murder"!!! ... and will get away with it. From all the details we currently know, there is really very little evidence to persuade a jury to find him guilty "beyond reasonable doubt" IMO. Unless the prosecution has many more cards up their sleeves, I see black!

 

[Obsessor]

At this stage, I fear, really fear, that he may have committed "the perfect murder"!!! ... and will get away with it. From all the details we currently know, there is really very little evidence to persuade a jury to find him guilty "beyond reasonable doubt" IMO. Unless the prosecution has many more cards up their sleeves, I see black!

A bit like Gabe Watson CC? Everyone knew he killed her, but he walked free.

Alioop helped me to have faith with a post in the last thread. When I read all the circumstantial stuff in one paragraph, it was very compelling. (Will look for at tonight- cant now.)
I do agree with you, however, that he was lucky with what potentially could have turned up but didn't!!

 

[Makara]

At this stage, I fear, really fear, that he may have committed "the perfect murder"!!! ... and will get away with it. From all the details we currently know, there is really very little evidence to persuade a jury to find him guilty "beyond reasonable doubt" IMO. Unless the prosecution has many more cards up their sleeves, I see black!

CC, the fact that both bail applications have been denied encourages me to beleive that there is a lot more evidence yet to come. I look at the Lloyd Rayney case where he was granted bail until the case eventually went to trial. Rayney was acquitted but I have no doubt that he was instrumental in the murder of his wife. There must be some very strong evidence against GBC to want to hold him on remand until the committal hearing.

Keep the faith. Not long to go now and then :justice:

 

[Obsessor]

and, just quickly, Makara, your work is awesome. Thankyou for the extra pics today, especially the one with the red line. So helpful, IMO.

And...while I'm sorry to hear you've been losing sleep over this stuff, can I say, gee its helpful to us.

 

[LadyBird1]

At this stage, I fear, really fear, that he may have committed "the perfect murder"!!! ... and will get away with it. From all the details we currently know, there is really very little evidence to persuade a jury to find him guilty "beyond reasonable doubt" IMO. Unless the prosecution has many more cards up their sleeves, I see black!

To dear CaseClosed,
Might be timely to point out that the public has only been privy to very little real information. We have had very sketchy details with which to work.
There are 446 witness statements yet to come, of which we know nothing. I have a strong feeling there will be plenty of bombshells amongst them.
For example the best friend's words "She told me things" keep ringing over in my mind. If she alone were to make public all her knowledge, it would be twisted, turned and screwed inside out by the "clever" crew who are hell bent on defending the charges vigorously.
When the "new evidence" was exposed last court time, I secretly was overjoyed.
Because if that Zoloft nonsense is the best they can come up with, then someone is in desperate straits. IMO That was really scraping the bottom of the barrel for something anything that points away from murder.
It will be interesting to see what new ploys they will come up with next.
I would like to think he will be brought to account also from his behind bars activities, selling property for one.

 

[CaseClosed]

CC, the fact that both bail applications have been denied encourages me to beleive that there is a lot more evidence yet to come. I look at the Lloyd Rayney case where he was granted bail until the case eventually went to trial. Rayney was acquitted but I have no doubt that he was instrumental in the murder of his wife. There must be some very strong evidence against GBC to want to hold him on remand until the committal hearing.

Keep the faith. Not long to go now and then :justice:

Most of the time, I am confident that he will pay for what he did, but, like with Watson and Rayney, what if he has the last laugh? I hope we get served with lots of new interesting evidence very soon!! Allison deserves for the monster to be locked up for 25 years!

 

[CaseClosed]

A bit like Gabe Watson CC? Everyone knew he killed her, but he walked free.

Alioop helped me to have faith with a post in the last thread. When I read all the circumstantial stuff in one paragraph, it was very compelling. (Will look for at tonight- cant now.)
I do agree with you, however, that he was lucky with what potentially could have turned up but didn't!!

Yes, Gabe Watson!! Another one that walked free! Thanks, I will look for that post from Alioop too.

 

[CaseClosed]

To dear CaseClosed,
Might be timely to point out that the public has only been privy to very little real information. We have had very sketchy details with which to work.
There are 446 witness statements yet to come, of which we know nothing. I have a strong feeling there will be plenty of bombshells amongst them.
For example the best friend's words "She told me things" keep ringing over in my mind. If she alone were to make public all her knowledge, it would be twisted, turned and screwed inside out by the "clever" crew who are hell bent on defending the charges vigorously.
When the "new evidence" was exposed last court time, I secretly was overjoyed.
Because if that Zoloft nonsense is the best they can come up with, then someone is in desperate straits. IMO That was really scraping the bottom of the barrel for something anything that points away from murder.
It will be interesting to see what new ploys they will come up with next.
I would like to think he will be brought to account also from his behind bars activities, selling property for one.

Thanks LadyBird. Unfortunately, witness statements could work in favour or against the prosecution. Kerry Anne could be instrumental to establish a history of what was going on in that marriage, if she was willing to reveal all she knew. As painful as it may be, I think the eldest child could have been a witness to the facts and I hope she has been interviewed. She is now almost a year older and could provide vital details. Yes, selling that house was just too bloody defiant and sneaky. He really is a piece of work!! I hope TM has a LOT to say, in Court, in front of him.

 

[Obsessor]

CC post 794 from thread 41- the wonderful Alioop. I've copied and pasted it, as I dont know how to bump it forward.

"Couldbe, I think they have plenty of evidence for the committal and for the purposes of convincing a magistrate to commit him for trial on just the stuff we know such as the face scratches, the lies and inconsistencies, the activity on his phone when he said he was asleep and the insurance issues together with their extreme financial stress. Whether they have enough for a trial to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt remains to be seen.

Edit. Oops forgot to mention Allisons blood in the car and likely her hair stuck in that blood, the screams heard by the neighbours and the 6 species of plants found on her that are also found on their back patio. Yes indeed, lots of evidence which when looked at as a whole is pretty compelling."


It made me feel better. Hope it helps you- but there is always a chance it may go his way I suppose.
.

 

[Obsessor]

<modsnip>

I actually had some pondering time on the road this afternoon about the elation and mood of the forum that was shared all weekend and it is my feeling that Allison has brought together this group of people, who in one way or another have something in common with who she was. I see everyone that contributes here as feeling an empathy for who Allison was, and most of us never actually knew her. What we do know, is she was the loving mother of three, she strove hard to be the best she could ever be, she set a beautiful example in life to her family, she was brought up on the right side of the tracks, she believed marriage was for life, and endeavoured till her death to support her husband, etc etc.
I believe the qualities people see in Allison are what has reached them on a personal level and brought them to this forum. I know, personally, I have never been drawn to anything like this. No other has touched me in this way.
I now believe, Allison has drawn this group of people to this forum, because we all relate to her, and we all care deeply.
In fact, I bet we would all be the type of people who would have been attracted to Allison in her living years, and we are probably all people whom she would have gravitated to also, because of similar ideals.

MOO

 

[alioop]

I found this Brisbane courier mail article reporting on the closing argument of the prosecution in the Sica murder case. It is a good article as it reports on how the prosecution explains to the jury about circumstantial evidence and various other matters such as intent to kill not having to be preplanned as such and how the accused's lies affect his credibility. I think it is generally relevant to any case for murder so I am posting it for general interest. Sica was convicted on circumstantial evidence and has appealed the verdict.

I hope this can help everyone understand the legal situation a bit better. I found it helpful as it is a nice neat summary.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...r-singh-siblings/story-e6freoof-1226394192867

 

[Obsessor]

I too, feel that for vegetatation to have remained evident on her body or hair, it must have been acquired during a tussle or from being dragged.
I wish we knew more about where and how big the remnants were, but I'm thinking they must have been more than cellular remains, ie a decent portion of a leaf or bigger. ???

 

[Obsessor]

At this stage, I fear, really fear, that he may have committed "the perfect murder"!!! ... and will get away with it. From all the details we currently know, there is really very little evidence to persuade a jury to find him guilty "beyond reasonable doubt" IMO. Unless the prosecution has many more cards up their sleeves, I see black!

He actually could have come close to pulling off the perfect murder, but his undoing will be his stupidity with regards to other things, such as the Bruce Overland alias, the urgency with initiating a life insurance claim, the many, many lies and changes in his story, telling Toni he had to lay low, and all the other bits and pieces the police accumulated during their investigation. Another is the calling of emergency services way too early, and another is his use of the phone during his night of heavy sleep. There is lots really.
I also think I remember hearing, (please correct me if I dreamt this) but he made very few attempts to contact Allison after he had called the police. This is very telling that he knew she was not just missing.
(I'll try to find a link)

The facial, torso, and neck scratches and bruises also need explaining in light of having a missing wife, as does the blood in the car (hopefully the hair) and the foliage present on Allison.

Lots when you look at it. Plus, there is nothing pointing to any other possible reason for her disappearance and death.

 

[Ippygal]

<modsnip>
I actually had some pondering time on the road this afternoon about the elation and mood of the forum that was shared all weekend and it is my feeling that Allison has brought together this group of people, who in one way or another have something in common with who she was. I see everyone that contributes here as feeling an empathy for who Allison was, and most of us never actually knew her. What we do know, is she was the loving mother of three, she strove hard to be the best she could ever be, she set a beautiful example in life to her family, she was brought up on the right side of the tracks, she believed marriage was for life, and endeavoured till her death to support her husband, etc etc.
I believe the qualities people see in Allison are what has reached them on a personal level and brought them to this forum. I know, personally, I have never been drawn to anything like this. No other has touched me in this way.
I now believe, Allison has drawn this group of people to this forum, because we all relate to her, and we all care deeply.
In fact, I bet we would all be the type of people who would have been attracted to Allison in her living years, and we are probably all people whom she would have gravitated to also, because of similar ideals.

MOO

So very well said!!

 

[Obsessor]

Obby, IMO GBC thought his report of Allison's disappearance would simply be treated as a missing person's case. He never thought for a moment that the Police would be onto him so quickly. He would have quickly realised that he was under suspicion when the crime squad were called in and that's when he started making mistakes.

In my opinion, this is exactly why he didn't have his story straight, and why everything unravelled once the police started to scratch below the surface. It sounds like he fully expected them to buy the "cut myself shaving in a hurry" story too.
He was so sure it would just be another missing person, small paragraph in the local paper story, which is why he was furious at any media attention that was given to the story.
I believe he now believes the media brought him undone, and so do his family for some reason. ???

 

[CaseClosed]

This is a question for the legal minds here: Will GBC have to take the stand? Is it upto the prosecution to call him and can de defence team refuse? Thanks.

 

[alioop]

At trial if committed, GBC can't be made to give evidence. If he chooses to give evidence for his defence, he can then be cross examined by the prosecution. I doubt he would give evidence in his own defence as is his legal right.

Only the prosecution presents their evidence at the committal and the defence can cross examine those 43 witnesses that have been agreed to by the prosecution.

 

[CaseClosed]

At trial if committed, GBC can't be made to give evidence. If he chooses to give evidence for his defence, he can then be cross examined by the prosecution. I doubt he would give evidence in his own defence as is his legal right.

Only the prosecution presents their evidence at the committal and the defence can cross examine those 43 witnesses that have been agreed to by the prosecution.

Thanks Alioop!!