Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #47

[Mountain Misst]

Some great ideas here that we can incorporate:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10135666&postcount=675"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - SC SC - Heather Elvis, 20, Myrtle Beach, 18 Dec 2013 - #7[/ame]

 

[LadyBird1]

What the heck. Here is the memorial sideways. This photo is doing dodgy things. Note the lovely flowers.

In loving Memory of

ALLISON JUNE BADEN-CLAY [DICKIE]
1968 – 2012
11 days of searching her body was discovered under this bridge on the 1st May 2012
No farewell words were spoken
No chance to say goodbye,
You were taken from us so tragically
And only God Knows why
A loving mother, daughter, sister, sister in law, wife, and dear friend to all who knew her.
Loving and caring in all her ways.
we love and miss her more each day.

Forever in our hearts

 

[BreakingNews]

Some great ideas here that we can incorporate:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - SC SC - Heather Elvis, 20, Myrtle Beach, 18 Dec 2013 - #7

View attachment 40265

Thanks Mountain Misst. I think most of us have 'humanised the victim'. Thanks Possumheart for the pictures and wording. It is quite a large monument, but justly deserved and the wording is so the wonderful Dickie family.

Some very interesting things to do on this list. Where is our original list of facts? I'm hopeless at finding links.:jail::jail::jail:

 

[marlywings]

Thanks Mountain Misst. I think most of us have 'humanised the victim'. Thanks Possumheart for the pictures and wording. It is quite a large monument, but justly deserved and the wording is so the wonderful Dickie family.

Some very interesting things to do on this list. Where is our original list of facts? I'm hopeless at finding links.:jail::jail::jail:

BreakingNews....all the information on Allison's case is contained on front page of her forum. This includes, all the previous threads #1 - 46(up top of the forum) media/timeline, bail hearing documents. Phone records & committal hearing threads are also on front page....

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=494"]Allison Baden-Clay of Australia - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[AAAA]

Hmm as we lead up to the court case - it will be interesting to think about who will be the main players? (OMG Alioops I am so not able to provide a decent idea of the next stage- being so procedurally law ignorant and if this is going to be counterproductive to the case I will gladly bow out but..... just in terms of preparing for June 10th ) I really think TM will take a thrashing on this case. She is the only other person who had real motive to off Allison - and I feel for her. While she may have entertained the idea that GBC and she would be together she had already proved that she could wait - she probably would be happy with some indication that GBC intended to make things concrete with her in the future.

If OW is called as a witness - what would she say? What about his parents? I mean seriously things were very harmonius between Tm and the elder BC's. Did Allison retreat from the confrontation GBC family can the counselor shed light on this ideal?

There is no law against having an affair, even though I think it's so morally wrong, so if she's not involved,(which I believe), who is? My bet is that his Dad or sister have some knowledge which hopefully will be questioned in court.

 

[Liadan]

There is no law against having an affair, even though I think it's so morally wrong, so if she's not involved,(which I believe), who is? My bet is that his Dad or sister have some knowledge which hopefully will be questioned in court.

TM was involved, it is that simple - like it or not she played a huge part in the emotional tug of war of family v the ideal of her perfect love - and hence the demise (but perhaps she would have never contemplated the death) of Allison! She could have been any other of the 3 other mistresses (that we know about) but TM was the one who constantly begged GBC to be with her, was the one who sat in the wings and waited for him to come back to her. And believed that GBC wanted her more than his wife. She was the one who heard him say that he was leaving his wife and selling his business. She was ignorant of other GBC lovers??????? SO, I believe TM provides the defense with the best solution to creating alternative theory. TM is the one who is unfortunately the most entangled in his web of lies. And you don't get to that point by being 'uninvolved'!

The 'Allison took a Zoloft overdose' has been crushed with scientific evidence- so what else was motivation for her murder- perhaps the life insurance policy that Allison's demise enabled GBC to access! Yes but this would mean that GBC worked alone - so not as attractive, his mouth works alone but he needs support every step of the way.

With Allison out of the picture GBC was free to pursue his will - Tm was not tied to him formally and so could be dismissed as required. GBC was free to pursue his fleet of mistresses. TM just happened to be the one mistress who had been around the longest and was serious about planning on making a future with him when GBC got around to it and maybe he never would - ....?. After all, that is clearly what GBC had stated to her - he would be with TM one day! If indeed maybe GBC had no intentions of hooking up with TM for the long term we cannot know but we only have GBC's statements where he is keen to string TM along and maintain her support and adoration to fuel his narcissism.

So the question is; was TM involved? You bet! She was another voice telling him to get out of the family situation he was in and she would support him through this tough time, she was familiar with his parents and sister and had a good relationship with them. Did GBC have to listen - of course not but he was not a faithful man to Allison and had experienced life in the fast lane and had got away with it and liked it. TM was pushing him to be part of that (divorce Allison - don't be miserable anymore- be with me and happy). In that scenario GBC knew he could do whatever else he wanted to undertake. TM was not going to challenge him on any level like Allison. So I think TM was a huge factor in the mindset of GBC she was getting to his brain and building him up to think that he was in a situation that was going to leave him in the best possible outcome. His wife missing, a grieving husband with 3 young girls and a wife who was totally depressed and unable to provide a decent home environment to support her long suffering husband. (What a total crock!)

Sorry for the long post - but there are no innocents when a family is destroyed like this! its ironic -Buyer beware!

 

[LadyBird1]

I am not going to speculate here whether TM was involved or not - like it or not she played a huge part in the demise of Allison! And I believe TM will give the defense the best solution to creating alternative theory. The 'Allison took a Zoloft overdose' has been crushed with scientific evidence- so what else was motivation for her murder- perhaps the life insurance policy that Allison's demise enabled GBC to access, the fact that TM could pursue GBC without him having to justify his time and family himself to Allison and the girls. GBC was free to pursue his fleet of mistresses. TM just happened to be the one mistress who had been around the longest and was serious about planning on making a future with him when GBC got around to divorcing Allison. After all that is clearly what GBC had stated to her. Indeed maybe GBC had no intentions of hooking up with TM for the long term but we cannot know that we only have GBC's statements where he is keen to string TM along and maintain her support and adoration to fuel his narcissism.

To dear Liadan, It's not like TM was actually involved or not. That is a matter of pure conjecture. It is apparent that she was pressing inappropriate buttons. Belonging to an inappropriate person. At an inappropriate time.
But it is very much like she will be an easy scapegoat for one who requires to appear innocent at all costs.
Worse, it appears that TM is unaware of her imminent peril.
The one who requires to be seen as innocent apparently has the backing of his entire family.
And in the cold hard light of day, who in the hell is TM anyway?
Expendable merchandise?

 

[AAAA]

TM was involved, it is that simple - like it or not she played a huge part in the emotional tug of war of family v the ideal of her perfect love - and hence the demise (but perhaps she would have never contemplated the death) of Allison! She could have been any other of the 3 other mistresses (that we know about) but TM was the one who constantly begged GBC to be with her, was the one who sat in the wings and waited for him to come back to her. And believed that GBC wanted her more than his wife. She was the one who heard him say that he was leaving his wife and selling his business. She was ignorant of other GBC lovers??????? SO, I believe TM provides the defense with the best solution to creating alternative theory. TM is the one who is unfortunately the most entangled in his web of lies. And you don't get to that point by being 'uninvolved'!

The 'Allison took a Zoloft overdose' has been crushed with scientific evidence- so what else was motivation for her murder- perhaps the life insurance policy that Allison's demise enabled GBC to access! Yes but this would mean that GBC worked alone - so not as attractive, his mouth works alone but he needs support every step of the way.

With Allison out of the picture GBC was free to pursue his will - Tm was not tied to him formally and so could be dismissed as required. GBC was free to pursue his fleet of mistresses. TM just happened to be the one mistress who had been around the longest and was serious about planning on making a future with him when GBC got around to it and maybe he never would - ....?. After all, that is clearly what GBC had stated to her - he would be with TM one day! If indeed maybe GBC had no intentions of hooking up with TM for the long term we cannot know but we only have GBC's statements where he is keen to string TM along and maintain her support and adoration to fuel his narcissism.

So the question is; was TM involved? You bet! She was another voice telling him to get out of the family situation he was in and she would support him through this tough time, she was familiar with his parents and sister and had a good relationship with them. Did GBC have to listen - of course not but he was not a faithful man to Allison and had experienced life in the fast lane and had got away with it and liked it. TM was pushing him to be part of that (divorce Allison - don't be miserable anymore- be with me and happy). In that scenario GBC knew he could do whatever else he wanted to undertake. TM was not going to challenge him on any level like Allison. So I think TM was a huge factor in the mindset of GBC she was getting to his brain and building him up to think that he was in a situation that was going to leave him in the best possible outcome. His wife missing, a grieving husband with 3 young girls and a wife who was totally depressed and unable to provide a decent home environment to support her long suffering husband. (What a total crock!)

Sorry for the long post - but there are no innocents when a family is destroyed like this! its ironic -Buyer beware!

Sorry Laidan, I should have made myself more clear. I totally agree with all of the above, my point was that I don't think she participated in the actual murder.

 

[Fuskier]

TM was involved, it is that simple - like it or not she played a huge part in the emotional tug of war of family v the ideal of her perfect love - and hence the demise (but perhaps she would have never contemplated the death) of Allison! She could have been any other of the 3 other mistresses (that we know about) but TM was the one who constantly begged GBC to be with her, was the one who sat in the wings and waited for him to come back to her. And believed that GBC wanted her more than his wife. She was the one who heard him say that he was leaving his wife and selling his business. She was ignorant of other GBC lovers??????? SO, I believe TM provides the defense with the best solution to creating alternative theory. TM is the one who is unfortunately the most entangled in his web of lies. And you don't get to that point by being 'uninvolved'!

The 'Allison took a Zoloft overdose' has been crushed with scientific evidence- so what else was motivation for her murder- perhaps the life insurance policy that Allison's demise enabled GBC to access! Yes but this would mean that GBC worked alone - so not as attractive, his mouth works alone but he needs support every step of the way.

With Allison out of the picture GBC was free to pursue his will - Tm was not tied to him formally and so could be dismissed as required. GBC was free to pursue his fleet of mistresses. TM just happened to be the one mistress who had been around the longest and was serious about planning on making a future with him when GBC got around to it and maybe he never would - ....?. After all, that is clearly what GBC had stated to her - he would be with TM one day! If indeed maybe GBC had no intentions of hooking up with TM for the long term we cannot know but we only have GBC's statements where he is keen to string TM along and maintain her support and adoration to fuel his narcissism.

So the question is; was TM involved? You bet! She was another voice telling him to get out of the family situation he was in and she would support him through this tough time, she was familiar with his parents and sister and had a good relationship with them. Did GBC have to listen - of course not but he was not a faithful man to Allison and had experienced life in the fast lane and had got away with it and liked it. TM was pushing him to be part of that (divorce Allison - don't be miserable anymore- be with me and happy). In that scenario GBC knew he could do whatever else he wanted to undertake. TM was not going to challenge him on any level like Allison. So I think TM was a huge factor in the mindset of GBC she was getting to his brain and building him up to think that he was in a situation that was going to leave him in the best possible outcome. His wife missing, a grieving husband with 3 young girls and a wife who was totally depressed and unable to provide a decent home environment to support her long suffering husband. (What a total crock!)

Sorry for the long post - but there are no innocents when a family is destroyed like this! its ironic -Buyer beware!

Well said IMO. TM may have added pressure of 'influence' which devalued married life with his wife. So she is significant. But Gerbil's own character is significant: his own devaluation of his marriage, his political & business aspirations which may have influenced his decision. His relationship with his parents & sister are significant. One hypothesis is that it appears he had not graduated from his family of origin and could do little without the influence of these 'primary' ties. All yet to be tested in Court, of course.

 

[Couldbe]

4.04pm: Mr Boyle said Mrs Baden-Clay's body was found 14km away from the couple's home at Brookfield, at the Kholo Creek bridge.

He said there was no evidence she'd fallen, adding the water level was below the place where her body was found.

"Within a very short time of her being dead she was in that position," he said.

"This is 14km away from his house, where, if he did kill Mrs Baden-Clay at the house and move her, it would have been within a very short period of time that she ended up in that particular position under the bridge."

Question of once killing of Allison occurred, was a 'plan' acted upon very quickly to transport her body to Kholo Creek (14 kms away) which, following her body being placed in the vehicle (including dressing her in trackies, etc) which if GBC performed this alone would have taken say 10 mins, driving out there would have taken say another 30 mins; plus the time taken then to carry her body to its position under the bridge.... adding these times up, does just under 1 hour constitute a 'very short period of time'?

One would think that once an 'accidental killing' occurred, it would take some time to think about what to do...... namely, transporting a body away from the scene. A conclusion would be that it would have been a premeditated crime, because of what the Prosecution was proposing.
Otherwise, Allison's death could have occurred away from their house.
JMO.

 

[BreakingNews]

4.04pm: Mr Boyle said Mrs Baden-Clay's body was found 14km away from the couple's home at Brookfield, at the Kholo Creek bridge.

He said there was no evidence she'd fallen, adding the water level was below the place where her body was found.

"Within a very short time of her being dead she was in that position," he said.

"This is 14km away from his house, where, if he did kill Mrs Baden-Clay at the house and move her, it would have been within a very short period of time that she ended up in that particular position under the bridge."

Question of once killing of Allison occurred, was a 'plan' acted upon very quickly to transport her body to Kholo Creek (14 kms away) which, following her body being placed in the vehicle (including dressing her in trackies, etc) which if GBC performed this alone would have taken say 10 mins, driving out there would have taken say another 30 mins; plus the time taken then to carry her body to its position under the bridge.... adding these times up, does just under 1 hour constitute a 'very short period of time'?

One would think that once an 'accidental killing' occurred, it would take some time to think about what to do...... namely, transporting a body away from the scene. A conclusion would be that it would have been a premeditated crime, because of what the Prosecution was proposing.
Otherwise, Allison's death could have occurred away from their house.
JMO.

Or maybe Allison wasn't quite dead when she was bundled into the car and died on the way. 'Very short period of time' needs clarification.

 

[Couldbe]

Or maybe Allison wasn't quite dead when she was bundled into the car and died on the way. 'Very short period of time' needs clarification.

...Yes, we don't know what Boyle (Prosecution) was really meaning; but what he didn't say was: 'short period of time' / 'relatively short period of time' / 'extremely short period of time' (seconds;minutes) ...... so, it could be in relation to the time period (between 10 pm and 4 am) that was put out there by Detectives .... during which they figured the related events occurred.
In that context (6 hours) 'very short period of time' is likely to be somewhere within the first 2 hours (dividing the period of time into quarters). Of course, there was a time when the Detectives estimated that the period could have been between 8 pm and 4 am!
....BreakingNews .. as you say, Allison could have "died on the way" ..... Boyle did say it in relation to Allison's dead body being in that position under the bridge.
So, in that context, it would most likely relate to .. within the time it took to drive to Kholo Bridge (around 20 to 30 mins)!
Just to quote what he said again:
"Within a very short time of her being dead she was in that position," he said.
"This is 14km away from his house, where, if he did kill Mrs Baden-Clay at the house and move her, it would have been within a very short period of time that she ended up in that particular position under the bridge."
..... or maybe he was implying that GBC did not kill Mrs Baden-Clay at the house because there wouldn't have been the opportunity for that 'very short period of time' to have elapsed (it would have taken a longer period of time) in then travelling the 14km and then placing her body under the bridge?

 

[possumheart]

G's own character is significant: his own devaluation of his marriage, his political & business aspirations which may have influenced his decision. His relationship with his parents & sister are significant. One hypothesis is that it appears he had not graduated from his family of origin and could do little without the influence of these 'primary' ties.

Ms McHugh said in December, Mr Baden-Clay told her he would not leave his wife in the short-term."(He said) he didn't plan to be in the marriage indefinitely, that he still had feelings for me," she said. "He told me he was one day going to come to me unconditionally." http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/gerard-baden-clay-ended-affair-abruptly-mistress-tells-court/story-e6frg6nf-1226599736233

Unconditional love requires an awareness of a presence beyond appearances. I imagine that, for a narcissist, it would be akin to asking you to sit in front of your computer and connect to its soul. You might laugh, you might shrug, you might blink. Chances are, you’re not going to find anything to connect to.

You know how, when you truly love someone, whether it’s a person, or even a pet, you can get really angry at them, yet despite the anger, you still feel love for them? That’s healthy unconditional love. It’s not something narcissists are familiar with.
http://thehappysensitive.com/narcissistic-love-versus-unconditional-love/

 

[alioop]

Re the very short time that Allison ended up under the bridge after she died has been commented on previously by Dr Watson. From memory, and I am sure he will be happy to clarify, he said this could be a couple of hours or longer in terms of postmortem lividity being the pooling of blood in the body. Allison's body was found in the same position that caused that lividity likely due to being stuck in the mud. She wasn't moved much by the ebb and flow of the tide.

 

[alioop]

Quite disturbing - I get the impression from the 4BC website that if Gerard is not convicted the Life Insurance money will be swallowed by Solicitors or Legal Aid. Not a good outlook for the children. I guess I realised that but didn't want to think about it.
http://www.4bc.com.au/BadenClay#.UtDnbX8ayK0

I don't want to go into the legal details, but don't worry too much about this Poss, the girls' lawyer has got this covered and commenced legal action that is on hold pending the outcome of the trial.

 

[Fuskier]

Ms McHugh said in December, Mr Baden-Clay told her he would not leave his wife in the short-term."(He said) he didn't plan to be in the marriage indefinitely, that he still had feelings for me," she said. "He told me he was one day going to come to me unconditionally." http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/gerard-baden-clay-ended-affair-abruptly-mistress-tells-court/story-e6frg6nf-1226599736233

Unconditional love requires an awareness of a presence beyond appearances. I imagine that, for a narcissist, it would be akin to asking you to sit in front of your computer and connect to its soul. You might laugh, you might shrug, you might blink. Chances are, you&#8217;re not going to find anything to connect to. <respectfully snipped>


http://thehappysensitive.com/narcissistic-love-versus-unconditional-love/

Thanks Possum. Here is a different perspective for consideration: what did GBC mean ?

IMO the Defense Lawyers may need to establish what the alleged murderer meant when he said "unconditionally". Did he mean there would be no 'conditions' because he had plans to obliterate them? What he meant may have been different to what TM wanted to believe? The alleged murderer's use of the word 'unconditionally' may need to be examined in terms of his character and the context of his personal life at that time IMHO.
Hypothetically, there were benefits to him from ABC's death solving several problems he was facing. All yet to be tested before the Court.

 

[Couldbe]

Thanks Possum. Here is a different perspective for consideration: what did GBC mean ?

IMO the Defense Lawyers may need to establish what the alleged murderer meant when he said "unconditionally". Did he mean there would be no 'conditions' because he had plans to obliterate them? What he meant may have been different to what TM wanted to believe? The alleged murderer's use of the word 'unconditionally' may need to be examined in terms of his character and the context of his personal life at that time IMHO.
Hypothetically, there were benefits to him from ABC's death solving several problems he was facing. All yet to be tested before the Court.

... Fuskier, in an overview of the affair and the sad events that culminated in Allison's death, IMO it looks like TM is happy to put herself out there as the motivation for GBC to be alone, without Allison, and the events that followed.. e.g. in the phone calls between GBC and TM on 20 & 21 Apr, ("He did say ... that we wouldn't be able to talk. He suggested that we lie low.") ... e.g. and as he, and she, knew he was a suspect.
In that respect, she has included herself in his motivation for this crime! / and as part of the unconditionally which would most likely have to be included as a motivation for this crime .... receiving Superannuation Funds and Insurance payout.
But, this doesn't necessarily follow that she was involved in the actual 'committing of the crime'. JMO

 

[Couldbe]

I don't think that it has been made public what Allison was wearing when she was at the Hairdresser on 19 Apr, but one wouldn't think it would be the trackie outfit! If she was dressed in the trackie outfit later by 'someone', then the other clothing that she had worn prior would surely have been there (or not there) to be examined by Detectives; her phone has apparently never turned up.

GBC could have acted alone in the crime, and he could have given (following transporting her body to Kholo Creek) to his family, a totally different 'story' about what happened ....... and gained their support in putting forth the inconsistent 'details' that he supplied to Police. I think that 'someone' was provided with 'immunity' by Detectives.
.... There have been no further arrests (accomplices), but of course the Detectives could be still working on that.

 

[AAAA]

...Yes, we don't know what Boyle (Prosecution) was really meaning; but what he didn't say was: 'short period of time' / 'relatively short period of time' / 'extremely short period of time' (seconds;minutes) ...... so, it could be in relation to the time period (between 10 pm and 4 am) that was put out there by Detectives .... during which they figured the related events occurred.
In that context (6 hours) 'very short period of time' is likely to be somewhere within the first 2 hours (dividing the period of time into quarters). Of course, there was a time when the Detectives estimated that the period could have been between 8 pm and 4 am!
....BreakingNews .. as you say, Allison could have "died on the way" ..... Boyle did say it in relation to Allison's dead body being in that position under the bridge.
So, in that context, it would most likely relate to .. within the time it took to drive to Kholo Bridge (around 20 to 30 mins)!
Just to quote what he said again:
"Within a very short time of her being dead she was in that position," he said.
"This is 14km away from his house, where, if he did kill Mrs Baden-Clay at the house and move her, it would have been within a very short period of time that she ended up in that particular position under the bridge."
..... or maybe he was implying that GBC did not kill Mrs Baden-Clay at the house because there wouldn't have been the opportunity for that 'very short period of time' to have elapsed (it would have taken a longer period of time) in then travelling the 14km and then placing her body under the bridge?

Except, Couldbe, that there was the evidence of plant matter from the back of their home???

 

[LadyBird1]

I don't think that it has been made public what Allison was wearing when she was at the Hairdresser on 19 Apr, but one wouldn't think it would be the trackie outfit! If she was dressed in the trackie outfit later by 'someone', then the other clothing that she had worn prior would surely have been there (or not there) to be examined by Detectives; her phone has apparently never turned up.

GBC could have acted alone in the crime, and he could have given (following transporting her body to Kholo Creek) to his family, a totally different 'story' about what happened ....... and gained their support in putting forth the inconsistent 'details' that he supplied to Police. I think that 'someone' was provided with 'immunity' by Detectives.
.... There have been no further arrests (accomplices), but of course the Detectives could be still working on that.

Gulp! Anyone here go to the hairdresser wearing tracky- daks?
You have to be joking? No way.....!
Sorry the question remains.... anyone here go to the hairdresser wearing .....
Please forgive my conservative outlook. (My hair dresser appointments are a rare and very special treat)
And I believe that all about this is very important.
Not the rare bit, but because this shows that Allison cared about herself.
Not only cared about herself, but she was definitely NOT suicidal.
Because: Who would spend a huge amount on a special hair job, and then commit suicide?
It doesn't add up. Nothing at all adds up in fact.