Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #47

[Couldbe]

I think that if he was using the counselling session as a show of being a good husband trying to work on his marriage for the purposes of covering up murder plans that he would have a done a better job. For eg showing remorse and empathy towards Allison and allowing himself to be easily convinced to be subjected to Allisons 15 min sessions sharing her pain. Why battle with Carmel about not regressing if he had a plan at that stage to murder her. Would have been easier to say, yes Carmel that is a great idea and I just want to help Allison move forward and if that is what she needs, I will do it because I love her so much!

Alioop, I don't mean to be answering for Sor Juana in this post.
but.... GBC told Police who were interviewing him that they had been to see other Psychologists, but Allison seemed to like this one.

Not being the first experience he had with attending a Psychologist, he would be familiar with the process.
In that respect, do you think that he could have decided to go along and this time, try and manipulate this one ....to achieve an outcome that he wanted .... to get Allison off his back.

The Detectives would have been interested in interviewing these other Psychologists as well. That would give further insight into GBC and Allison as well.... if that is what they wanted.

 

[Radster]

BBM (thanks for the details alioop!)

I really wonder who determined this would be good therapy. Did Allison request this time each day with GBC to go over her pain, or did Carmel suggest it. It just seems like a very negative approach to couples counselling from my experiences with couples.

Of course getting the negative feelings out can be therapeutic, but IMO it would be best served by a good dose of positivity after this type of 'exercise'. (to be honest, I disagree totally with the idea that Allison and GBC go home and do this - potential for escalation of emotion and very risky). Regardless of what was happening in their marriage, inflicting more negativity on the other party can be detrimental IMO.

Agree! Sorry, I haven't posted in ages, but am always staying up to date. My feeling is that Carmel Ritchie's reluctance to give evidence might have been less about client confidentiality than about personal regret. She may well fear that the 15-minute idea, while theoretically sound, ultimately proved to be the ignition to a fatal fire. Just a thought ...

 

[Trooper]

How did that come about, that Toni is a witness for the prosecution? Does that mean that she is the one who has been given prosecutional 'immunity'?

Obviously that is a highly likely possibility. She was advised by the police to retain a solicitor very very early in the piece. So that is the most likely reason. She is not a willing prosecutorial witness, but that does not negate her from telling the whole story the prosecution wants told. There would be penalties for her if she doesn't. I don't think she had much choice, as the defence cant offer her any favours. And therefore she must have needed that protection/immunity.

The fact that she is a witness for the prosecution speaks volumes, in my opinion as to what chances Toni herself believes Gerard can avoid conviction. If she really thought he had all the evidence needed to be found resoundingly innocent she would have told the prosecution to you know what. But they had an offer she couldn't refuse, is how I see it.


Would this also mean that she would be giving evidence to support the charges against GBC? Surely not.

Yes...it means exactly that.. being a witness for the prosecution means that Toni is under the auspices of the might and power of the Qld Dept of Justice . She is now their creature , and as such , is bound and held to the judicial oath with all that implies. A prosecutor has to bed down with plenty of mangy dogs at times, otherwise justice would halt altogether. She is a crucial part of the prosecution's process of convincing a jury that Gerard murdered , with malice , his wife , and interfered with her corpse. That is her unhappy yet somehow predictable, inevitable correct position.

Being a witness for the prosecution cuts her out of all contact with Gerards defence, his witnesses , Gerard himself, naturally, and it , by law prevents Gerards defence and any witnesses for the defence from contacting her. She has traded off that pleasure for something that can only be immunity from some quite serious charge and likely conviction, is how I see it...

 

[Radster]

While the defence - and the media perhaps - appear to be playing up the depression angle (possibly leading to having another go at playing the suicide card), I would think that anxiety (which is much more related to panic attacks as she is quoted as having had) and plain old worry may have been the order of the day.

If she had any active depression, I suspect it was mild and well controlled by the Zoloft. The fact that she was on the Zoloft may in fact mitigate AGAINST a suicide theory. Apart from all the problems about blood levels in the liver, and how the heck did she get to Kholo Creek....

No - I'm thinking more and more that it was just very simple, and spur of the moment. I don't think GBC had plans, either for murder, or insurance, or life with Toni. I think perhaps Allison may have taken the opportunity of a night at home, with the girls probably round having a sleepover with their cousins, to have a go at the 15-minute venting thing (what a silly idea that seems to be).

And perhaps, GBC, with Allison sounding off and giving him a hard time, he simply flipped his lid and boiled over. Could have hit her, or simply pushed her over and down, knelt on her chest (possibly the bruise) and smothered her with a pillow. That would be my guess as cause of death, although we don't know that from the autopsy.

The screams heard by neighbours may have been when he pushed her over and down. He then probably simply dragged her out the back, picking up bits of vegetation in the process, and dumped her in the back of the car. Then being familiar with the area around Kholo, where the scout camp is, just headed out that way with no fixed plan in mind. Then got to the creek bridge and possibly thought that if he dumped the body in the creek, it would float off into the main river and head downstream - a long way. Incidentally, there are bullsharks in the Brisbane River all the way up there - and even further up, above Mt Crosby Weir - but I doubt that even entered into his calculations. There were no calculations. it was all spur of the moment stuff and making it up as he went along.

That's my current theory, although I reserve the right to change it willy-nilly...! :blushing:

And I just wonder if the counsellor didn't want to give evidence because she felt responsible for suggesting the venting session that may - just MAY - have led to the whole sorry episode....

Just some thoughts to mull over - I'm off to bed and get some beauty sleep!

Agree COMPLETELY, Dr Watson.

 

[Trooper]

Hope this editing makes my reply clearer for you, could be..

Today 06:51 AM
Trooper Quote:
Originally Posted by Couldbe View Post
How did that come about, that Toni is a witness for the prosecution? Does that mean that she is the one who has been given prosecutional 'immunity'?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously that is a highly likely possibility. She was advised by the police to retain a solicitor very very early in the piece. So that is the most likely reason. She is not a willing prosecutorial witness, but that does not negate her from telling the whole story the prosecution wants told. There would be penalties for her if she doesn't. I don't think she had much choice, as the defence cant offer her any favours. And therefore she must have needed that protection/immunity.

The fact that she is a witness for the prosecution speaks volumes, in my opinion as to what chances Toni herself believes Gerard can avoid conviction. If she really thought he had all the evidence needed to be found resoundingly innocent she would have told the prosecution to you know what. But they had an offer she couldn't refuse, is how I see it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Would this also mean that she would be giving evidence to support the charges against GBC? Surely not.

Yes...it means exactly that.. being a witness for the prosecution means that Toni is under the auspices of the might and power of the Qld Dept of Justice . She is now their creature , and as such , is bound and held to the judicial oath with all that implies. A prosecutor has to bed down with plenty of mangy dogs at times, otherwise justice would halt altogether. She is a crucial part of the prosecution's process of convincing a jury that Gerard murdered , with malice , his wife , and interfered with her corpse. That is her unhappy yet somehow predictable, inevitable correct position.

Being a witness for the prosecution cuts her out of all contact with Gerards defence, his witnesses , Gerard himself, naturally, and it , by law prevents Gerards defence and any witnesses for the defence from contacting her. She has traded off that pleasure for something that can only be immunity from some quite serious charge and likely conviction, is how I see it...

 

[alioop]

Alioop, I don't mean to be answering for Sor Juana in this post.
but.... GBC told Police who were interviewing him that they had been to see other Psychologists, but Allison seemed to like this one.

Not being the first experience he had with attending a Psychologist, he would be familiar with the process.
In that respect, do you think that he could have decided to go along and this time, try and manipulate this one ....to achieve an outcome that he wanted .... to get Allison off his back.

The Detectives would have been interested in interviewing these other Psychologists as well. That would give further insight into GBC and Allison as well.... if that is what they wanted.

Good pick up Couldbe about him saying to the police at the house that "we've been to a couple of different counsellors and found somebody that you know we are both comfortable with"

If that is true, then hopefully the police have got their records and statements as the only claim of privilege was by Carmel. However, I get the impression that GBC and Allison did not agree to go to counselling together prior to Allison finding Carmel. Allison went to see Carmel for personal counselling, her stated problems and goals were about her. It was Carmel that realised Allisons biggest issue was the affair so she suggested to Allison that she could bring GBC along to the next session. Allison said she didn't think he would come and Carmel was surprised to see him in the waiting room at the next session.

As to why he agreed to go, who knows. I suspect he was trying to please Allison because he was trying to regain her trust and playing good husbands at least in front of her. So he likely couldn't think of a good enough reason not to go along with Allison. He didn't make much of an effort though with Carmel. Sure he was happy to tell her all about his good standing in the community but he didn't tell her the affair was over, nor did Carmel ask. He didn't express remorse for it or any empathy for Allison who he knew was having a very difficult time with him having an affair. He just wanted to move on from it, no regression, not even to talk about it. Carmel told him he had to let Allison vent for the 15 mins and he finally gave in after she wouldn't accept his unwillingness to agree. I think he just agreed to get Carmel off his back. He wasn't used to being treated like that though I think Allison was toughening up to him.
So as to whether he was trying to manipulate Carmel, I think he was more just going through the motions. I don't think he could manipulate her, she manipulated him!
I think he was under huge pressure from every which way, and likely at Thursday nights 15 min session things got deadly.

 

[Trooper]

Yes, TM told the truth but she lied by omission. And that is her blunder. She is a snake and I can't wait till Danny Boyle gets hold of her.

the thing is.... she is Danny's witness.... she is ,in fact, and in law, his colleague, so to speak. She is not Gerards witness. But Danny will make sure she leaves nothing out. The people who will be ripping into Tone will be Gerards barristers. It is imperative they tear down any and all statements , testimony she utters, including 'and' and 'but'.. to Gerards barristers , and no doubt to Gerard himself, Toni is the enemy.. all prosecution witnesses are to Gerards blokes.

 

[Strangeworld]

TMH was telling the truth about the alias Bruce Overland. (email records prove this).
No reason at this point to doubt that GBC told her that he would come to her a free man by July 1. (given the significance of the date --- sooo much money due to be paid.

What I doubt is that TMH had not seen GBC for 3 weeks prior to 19th April.

IMO until TMH found out about GBC's other women she would have done and said anything to protect her GG.

IMO eventually TMH had to face reality (probably with a hefty push) and protect herself.

IMO TMH phones and computer records would/could have some significant and valuable information for the LE.

I am waiting in anticipation for TMH's day in court when she will appear as a witness for the prosecution.

GBC's cheeks will be popping and tongue rolling me thinks!!

And the 'pop and roll' is born!! :rocker:

 

[Strangeworld]

Agree! Sorry, I haven't posted in ages, but am always staying up to date. My feeling is that Carmel Ritchie's reluctance to give evidence might have been less about client confidentiality than about personal regret. She may well fear that the 15-minute idea, while theoretically sound, ultimately proved to be the ignition to a fatal fire. Just a thought ...

Agree right back at ya Radster (welcome back too!!). I think this is what we were tossing around before the courts ordered her to talk. Why be so against talking. I still don't know if it was Relationships Aus or Carmel that was fighting tooth and nail, but I really think confidentiality came second.

I wonder if RA or Carmel were worried about how their services would be perceived, and maybe some public backlash - such as how much the homework task may have contributed to the events that led to Allison's murder.

I will say again though, counselling is a tough job. No one size fits all. But I can just see so many flaws in her interactions with Allison and GBC. One thing I've always remembered when working with clients is make sure what you ask/suggest a client to do is within their existing skills and capabilities (which are discovered through a thorough assessment). If someone is emotionally fragile, or there is obvious stress in a relationship, you don't throw the cat amongst the pigeons! You build the skills in session, and then encourage transference of skills outside the session. I think this is very much lacking from what we've heard in this case.

 

[possumheart]

I find it incredulous that this man has seemingly deflected and diverted blame from himself for so long in life. I can't even go to thinking of nature vs. nurture as his genetics are yet another of his excuses. I think I will remain dumb now with abstract contempt for the duration. I know now where the term 'poor excuse of a man' came.

 

[possumheart]

Further to my last comment, this choleric alpha personality type is the archetype of greed, capitalism, tribalism and bullying. It is the antithesis of nurture. It is the most hateful part of nature, and ugliest when personified. It is the man in the grey suit. It is hate.

 

[Trooper]

We have already had a small sample of Toni as a prosecutorial witness...it wasn't too bad, she tried avoiding stuff, it was mainly a hoo haa of emotional justification , but at that session the purpose from the prosecutors angle was to prevent Our Boy from getting bail. So Danny let Tone piffle on... she was a minor player in prosecution terms for that particular session, which was successful..He didn't get bail.

But at the big stage , the main event, the Supreme Court shindig , the place where the rubber hits the road, Toni as the prosecution witness will have been carefully woodshedded, rehearsed, stiffened up either by the carrot or the stick and Mr Boyle will be asking some of those indelicate and dreadful questions, which Toni as his witness has to answer as God is her witness with no ambiguity whatsoever. Or Else.

THEN, Mr Boyle will have to run interference for her and guard her from the tentacles and venom of Gerards barrister. THAT will be intriguing. Because Gerard will have to deny Toni.. like the third crow of the . They will have to portray Tone as a menopausal madwoman afflicted with an over active imagination. It's all he has. By the time this trial comes round Gerard will be telling us he once saw Toni at a bus stop somewhere, and only once.

 

[possumheart]

Mistah Kurtz—he dead.

A penny for the Old Guy

I
We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats' feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar

Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
Remember us—if at all—not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men.

II
Eyes I dare not meet in dreams
In death's dream kingdom
These do not appear:
There, the eyes are
Sunlight on a broken column
There, is a tree swinging
And voices are
In the wind's singing
More distant and more solemn
Than a fading star.

Let me be no nearer
In death's dream kingdom
Let me also wear
Such deliberate disguises
Rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves
In a field
Behaving as the wind behaves
No nearer—

Not that final meeting
In the twilight kingdom

III
This is the dead land
This is cactus land
Here the stone images
Are raised, here they receive
The supplication of a dead man's hand
Under the twinkle of a fading star.

Is it like this
In death's other kingdom
Waking alone
At the hour when we are
Trembling with tenderness
Lips that would kiss
Form prayers to broken stone.

IV
The eyes are not here
There are no eyes here
In this valley of dying stars
In this hollow valley
This broken jaw of our lost kingdoms

In this last of meeting places
We grope together
And avoid speech
Gathered on this beach of the tumid river

Sightless, unless
The eyes reappear
As the perpetual star
Multifoliate rose
Of death's twilight kingdom
The hope only
Of empty men.

V
Here we go round the prickly pear
Prickly pear prickly pear
Here we go round the prickly pear
At five o'clock in the morning.

Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom

Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the Shadow
Life is very long

Between the desire
And the spasm
Between the potency
And the existence
Between the essence
And the descent
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom

For Thine is
Life is
For Thine is the

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.

 

[Aberline_1979]

It looks like this trial's going to have everything except Gerard doing a Ted Bundy and representing himself, engaging in extensive courtroom theatrics, eagerly observed by his groupies.

 

[Trooper]

It looks like this trial's going to have everything except Gerard doing a Ted Bundy and representing himself, engaging in extensive courtroom theatrics, eagerly observed by his groupies.

I thought of that possibility, aberline....with Olivia as his second.. on a purely economic basis. His big problem then would be crossexamining Toni....she ran that cuddlesome duo with a firm grip and I suspect Gerard rather liked the whipping. ...I just cant see him girding his pathetic loins with enough glue to do it..

 

[Trooper]

could be his last chance to don the Yellow Jacket, though...his Robe of Invincibility, his Garment of Sincerity... you get my drift

 

[DrWatson]

I will say again though, counselling is a tough job. No one size fits all. But I can just see so many flaws in her interactions with Allison and GBC. One thing I've always remembered when working with clients is make sure what you ask/suggest a client to do is within their existing skills and capabilities (which are discovered through a thorough assessment). If someone is emotionally fragile, or there is obvious stress in a relationship, you don't throw the cat amongst the pigeons! You build the skills in session, and then encourage transference of skills outside the session. I think this is very much lacking from what we've heard in this case.

Strangeworld - your insights and knowledge, and no doubt skills, in the counselling field appear to be very impressive. If I need counselling at any stage, can I come and see you?

Seriously, you seem to have much more insight - even if it IS in hindsight - into how Allison and GBC should have been handled, than the counsellor they saw.

Good stuff, SW :tyou:

 

[Spotted Reptile]

I've been away for quite a while and just returned to this site. It's been compelling reading through the threads again and remembering all I have forgotten. It's certainly building up to an interesting trial, BUT I don't care if it's as boring as reading the phone book if justice is done for Allison . . .

She has traded off that pleasure for something that can only be immunity from some quite serious charge and likely conviction, is how I see it...

Trooper, this is indeed a very interesting development. TM must have been facing some very serious charges, which were likely to convict her and put her away for a long time, if she traded immunity as you point out.
I wonder what those charges were going to be? It wouldn't have been enough that she was GBC's mistress, surely. Possibly she was at least an accessory before the fact, and at worst complicit in the crime or the cover-up, to warrant her taking up such an offer from the prosecution. So I imagine what she has to reveal will be crucial to GBC's conviction.
You're also right in that she probably knows Gerard is gone, and she is trying to save herself only.

This trial may go in directions we have not imagined so far, at least I haven't.

 

[Tishy]

I thought of that possibility, aberline....with Olivia as his second.. on a purely economic basis. His big problem then would be crossexamining Toni....she ran that cuddlesome duo with a firm grip and I suspect Gerard rather liked the whipping. ...I just cant see him girding his pathetic loins with enough glue to do it..

Ohhhhh Trooper your turn of phrase is exquisite.

Methinks he is quite incapable of girding his own loins, too. After all, a solo s$&t, shower and shave seemed needy of a congratulatory response

 

[overloaded]

The big question I have is will GBC himself take to the stand?