Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #47

[Waiting for Justice]

WFJ that is very possible.
As some of the entries had been crossed as this one had I did think that this may have already been discussed but I thought (and I might be wrong) that Allison was unaware of the continuing relation with TMH and GBC.

What makes me think these entries may have been made after her text is sent is another entry in Allison's journal the same day... the 18th..where she says 'were you prepared to live with the guilt if I hadn't found out'
We know it was written on the 18th but we don't know which timeframe she is referring to.
:twocents:

 

[LadyBird1]

LadyBird way way back when the Prado had front damage we threw it around ad nauseam until we all were pulling our hair out on what caused it.
We all swore never to mention koppers logs again. My apologies, the devil made me do it..........again. :blushing:

Apologies from me TGY, Think I missed the koppers logs stuff. Have plenty of hair and all. But some how cant see koppers logs, emotional blackmail, narcissism and murder most foul coming together coherently.

 

[DrWatson]

I don't know if we can assume that the exact location where Allison was found was where she landed if she was thrown from the bridge. All we know is the lividity in her body was consistent with being in that position shortly after death which as Doc has said could have been 2 to 3 hours or more. So it is possible that she was thrown over the bridge and her body moved a bit by the tide for a while until she stuck in the mud and remained in that position. So my point is she could have been easily thrown over and moved by the tide to the position under the bridge. Thus no swinging her or using a rope necessary.

Indeed - thanks Ali. Having been to the bridge on more than one occasion, and under it, I can't see anybody "swinging" a body to try and get it to land under the bridge. Apart from the difficulty of heaving it over the top of the railing, and holding onto it while "swinging" it, there's the question of how the heck you'd hang onto a 72Kg deadweight body to do that.

I'm sure that the body was either slid through under the guardrail and simply rolled over the edge, or perhaps heaved over the top of the rail and just let drop - and perhaps that's where the jumper came up over her head as her arms were being held onto to execute this manoeuvre.

Then the body either bounced slightly under the bridge (it was only JUST under it - her upper half could be seen by looking over the edge) or as Ali said, a little movement by the tides until she stuck in the mud.

The three POSSIBLE injuries she had - including the possible mild subdural haematoma, the possible bruise to the chest wall (not confirmed on microscopic studies), and the chipped tooth, COULD have been caused by such a drop. The autopsy report specifically states that "It cannot be excluded that the three possible injuries above could have resulted from a fall from a height".

I think it was the discussion at the end of the autopsy report, by Nathan Milne, where he discusses "Other possible causes of death" that the defence may have been trying to get ruled out of submission. However, as an expert witness, the pathologist is allowed to express opinion, not just fact. And given the state of the body, he is merely proposing other possibilities as to the cause of death that can't be excluded by the autopsy itself. I'd be surprised if his discussion were to be ruled inadmissible.

 

[Estelle]

I know this has all been discussed before.
Words just fail me!!

30 April
A canoeist locates a body on the east bank of Kholo Creek. (bail doc)

The Dickie family distraught while awaiting confirmation if it is their daughter.

30 April
GBC -- soon after being informed A body had been located. GBC financial adviser made an inquiry about one of the deceased life insurance policies. (bail Docs)

1 May - No confirmation that the body was Allison.
The insurer was advised of a pending claim on the policy. (bail docs)

Later on 1 May - Body confirmed to be Allison
Lawyer Darren Mahony said GBC is devastated.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...lison-baden-clay-found/story-e6freuzr-1226343

Death certificate sought urgently by GBC. (bail doc)

4 May -- GBC collects photos from police station before returning to work at his Century 21 office.
http://www.news.com.au/national/hus...of-murdered-wife/story-e6frfkvr-1226347350132

May 5 - 7 -- Long weekend - family get away??

11 May -- Allison's funeral

21 May -- Death Certificate issued. GBC lodged claims on both of Allison's insurance policies and asked that they be expedited. (bail doc)

While the Dickies were planning the funeral, what was GBC planning??
Bail documents say he was a flight risk, I wonder why?

What happened with the insurance claim?

 

[Estelle]

I know this has all been discussed before.
Words just fail me!!

30 April
A canoeist locates a body on the east bank of Kholo Creek. (bail doc)

The Dickie family distraught while awaiting confirmation if it is their daughter.

30 April
GBC -- soon after being informed A body had been located. GBC financial adviser made an inquiry about one of the deceased life insurance policies. (bail Docs)

1 May - No confirmation that the body was Allison.
The insurer was advised of a pending claim on the policy. (bail docs)

Later on 1 May - Body confirmed to be Allison
Lawyer Darren Mahony said GBC is devastated.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...lison-baden-clay-found/story-e6freuzr-1226343

Death certificate sought urgently by GBC. (bail doc)

4 May -- GBC collects photos from police station before returning to work at his Century 21 office.
http://www.news.com.au/national/hus...of-murdered-wife/story-e6frfkvr-1226347350132

May 5 - 7 -- Long weekend - family get away??

11 May -- Allison's funeral

21 May -- Death Certificate issued. GBC lodged claims on both of Allison's insurance policies and asked that they be expedited. (bail doc)

While the Dickies were planning the funeral, what was GBC planning??
Bail documents say he was a flight risk, I wonder why?

He had practised taking his girls to the Northern Territory. IKYK

How did he do that?

 

[Estelle]

There has been much discussion about planned or unplanned.
I have leaned toward unplanned for the most part.

There were certainly a few things happening that could give rise to GBC giving thought if not a defined plan.

16th April
GBC and Allison attend appointment with Carmel Richie.
GBC reluctantly agrees that Allison can vent (grill him) for 15 minutes each 2nd night until the next session. (Which was not arranged)

17th April
Finacial advisor at Allisons request contacts Asteron insurers about reducing policy by $200,000.00. The policy was overdue and going to expire on 19 May. (Court Doc Tommy Laskaris)

18 April
Allison writes entries in her journal
one being --
Snowy
* drive together
* seat down
* lie there afterwards
* how many times
* do afterwards drive (??)?

So if we are to believe GBC (ha ha) then Allison believed the affair with TMH had ended.

But a text was sent from Allison's phone to GBC
11.59 am 18th April
Having fun with your companion?
Hope your not putting the seats down in the back of snowy?

Either Allison knew OR it may not have been Allison that sent the message from her phone.
(maybe someones aim was to sure up the jealous and depressed wife trail)
A call was not from Allison's phone until 2.08pm that day.

GBC return text to Allison
I am sorry you have nothing to be concerned about.
Feel free to ring or text me anytime. Love G
Is it me or is that a very weird thing for a husband to say to a wife?

10.08pm
GBC searches Taking the fifth and self incrimination.

I am now pondering the possibility that GBC may have been giving thought to ways he could solve his problems and he needed money and he needed it fast.

He needed it before it was reduced by some 200K -- did he have a plan or did the opportunity present and he took it?

Please excuse my ignorance but much of GBC's behaviour seems to point to premeditation for financial gain and maybe so that he could payoff his loans and be with TM.

I have not followed this case from the beginning but was he charged with murder or premeditated murder? If murder, could it be possible for him to be charged with premeditated murder in the future? The plan could have been there but perhaps not exactly when. But that night was the perfect opportunity with the girls away and TM and ABC going to the Conference the next day.

 

[Estelle]

Ah, the car crash.
Application for Forensic Procedure Detective Senior Constable Cameron Andrew McLeod:
On the 21st April 2012 the defendant voluntarily attended Indooroopilly Police Station and in his lawyers presence he consented to providing a voluntary DNA sample and for photos to be taken of his person.
Indooroopilly Scenes of Crime photographed the defendant, and upon removal of his shirt, injuries were evident on the body of the defendant consisting of a scratch under the right arm pit, an abrasion on the left side of his chest, and scratches on the left side of his neck which resembled fingernail scratch marks.
The defendant asked police whether it could be identified whether the scratch marks were self inflicted.
The defendant went on to state that he had made the scratch marks himself.
The defendant did not remove his trousers during the examination.
On 22nd April, I obtained a Forensic Procedure Order to conduct a complete forensic examination of the defendants body.

Whilst proceeding to Indooroopilly Station, the defendant was involved in a single vehicle traffic crash into a concrete pylon.
There were no brake marks at the scene and the defendant refused to answer questions in relation to the cause of the crash.

So when was this Forensic procedure carried out? I hope they followed up on it.

 

[LadyBird1]

So when was this Forensic procedure carried out? I hope they followed up on it.

Good question. A delay, however, of 24 to 48 hours might buy sufficient time for some marks to dissipate.
Then a beard and dark sunglasses could be used to hide those evidences a little more permanent. Well that's the usual procedure for anyone trying to mask signs like these. I don't remember if GBC did either.

 

[Lu-Lu]

I have not followed this case from the beginning but was he charged with murder or premeditated murder? If murder, could it be possible for him to be charged with premeditated murder in the future?

Correct me if I am wrong... If the prosecution believed it wasn't premeditated he would have been charged with manslaughter.

 

[Seeking]

Good question. A delay, however, of 24 to 48 hours might buy sufficient time for some marks to dissipate.
Then a beard and dark sunglasses could be used to hide those evidences a little more permanent. Well that's the usual procedure for anyone trying to mask signs like these. I don't remember if GBC did either.

There are photo's of GBC in MSM taken at that time that showed him with a beard. I don't know how to link. Amazing people like Makara and Possumheart are good at that. Also, I seem to remember that after he was arrested that there was a court order for him to shave so that the scratches on his face could be examined forensically. Does anyone else recall this?

 

[DrWatson]

Please excuse my ignorance but much of GBC's behaviour seems to point to premeditation for financial gain and maybe so that he could payoff his loans and be with TM.

I have not followed this case from the beginning but was he charged with murder or premeditated murder? If murder, could it be possible for him to be charged with premeditated murder in the future? The plan could have been there but perhaps not exactly when. But that night was the perfect opportunity with the girls away and TM and ABC going to the Conference the next day.

I'm not the legal brain around here, but as far as I know, there is only the charge of murder. I'm not aware that "murder" and "premeditated murder" are two separate charges here in Australia - unlike the USA where there is Murder 1, Murder 2, etc.

Again, as far as I know (and I'm very happy to be corrected by those who know), to convict someone of murder does not necessarily mean proving that it was premeditated.

And just re your subsequent post and question - yes, the forensic examinations WERE carried out, with his wounds, scratches, abrasions, etc all photographed in all their gory glory, and are available in the bail documents.

 

[alioop]

Our law in Qld is that for a murder conviction, an intent to kill or cause serious bodily harm has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. That intent can be formed at anytime during, immediately prior or well prior to the act that causes the death. So we don't have a class of pre meditated murder as such but it's the same thing as the intent to murder being formed well before the act, ie a plan to murder. So a plan to kill for life insurance would likely be a murder where an intent is formed well prior to the act, it could be days or weeks for eg.

In Gittanys case in Sydney the judge found that he formed the intent to kill Lisa during his rage at her attempting to leave him. So she didn't believe he pre planned to murder her but still found the requisite intent to murder when he threw her off the balcony.

 

[marlywings]

There are photo's of GBC in MSM taken at that time that showed him with a beard. I don't know how to link. Amazing people like Makara and Possumheart are good at that. Also, I seem to remember that after he was arrested that there was a court order for him to shave so that the scratches on his face could be examined forensically. Does anyone else recall this?

Sure do recall it...

June 13, 2012

At 3pm, Mr Baden-Clay was arrested at the Toowong Towers car park. Police allege the scratches on Mr Baden-Clay's face have scarred and have been "partially obscured by beard growth".

He is charged with murder and interfering with a corpse.

June 14, 2012

A government medical officer advises police a shaving cut is "usually a epidermal nick and is not likely to scar given that they don't break the dermis. A non-intimate forensic order is requested to shave the relevant part of Mr Baden-Clay's face, examine and take photograph of the injuries".

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...d-badenclay-20120626-210bz.html#ixzz2tebn3Igc

And the photo of the bearded one...

Photo of scratches...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-...baden-clay-28photo-released-march-202/4584070

 

[Estelle]

Our law in Qld is that for a murder conviction, an intent to kill or cause serious bodily harm has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. That intent can be formed at anytime during, immediately prior or well prior to the act that causes the death. So we don't have a class of pre meditated murder as such but it's the same thing as the intent to murder being formed well before the act, ie a plan to murder. So a plan to kill for life insurance would likely be a murder where an intent is formed well prior to the act, it could be days or weeks for eg.

In Gittanys case in Sydney the judge found that he formed the intent to kill Lisa during his rage at her attempting to leave him. So she didn't believe he pre planned to murder her but still found the requisite intent to murder when he threw her off the balcony.

Thanks Ali. So does the extent of premeditation planning influence the length of sentencing?

 

[Liadan]

Possumheart - your avatar is just gorgeous!

 

[possumheart]

How did he do that?

mister google has TM's fourth statement. She describes G taking the girls to the Northern Territory on holidays without Allison. She admits vaguely in the statement to commenting on the holiday photos on G's Facebook with IKYK which was their secret code for 'I know you know'.
:scream:

 

[marlywings]

Another shot of the bearded one on the day of his arrest...

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/all...t-police-station/story-e6frg12c-1226395380789

 

[sosocurious]

What happened with the insurance claim?

The insurance payouts were frozen until the trial.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...-insurance-payouts-frozen-20130206-2dy1a.html

 

[possumheart]

Possumheart - your avatar is just gorgeous!

Tis a wee weasel :giggle:

 

[they'll get you]

Sure do recall it...
June 13, 2012
At 3pm,Mr Baden-Clay was arrested at the Toowong Towers car park.

Thanks Marley, I didn't remember that he was arrested at the shops & then taken to hospital by ambo.