Amanda Knox New Motivation Report RE: Meredith Kercher Murder #1 *new trial ordered*

[otto]

10.45pm to 1.30am is not 1 hour.

What you really need to have a think about is why neither statements from Nov 6 contain any infomation about the crime that only the killer could know. The two statements are laughable and prove innocence.

I wonder what they were doing to her to make her scream?

It seems to me that there was at least a one hour delay while everyone waited for the translator to arrive. The questioning ended upon Knox's status being changed from that of a witness to a suspect somewhere between 1 and 1:30 AM. That means that there was questioning for just over an hour, and that during that time everything was painfully translated and explained to Knox in English. How much in the way of police tactics and coercion was possible in that short time given the translation factor?

If only all "laughable statements" resulted in the conclusion that: persons that make absurd statements are innocent! That simply doesn't happen ... not anywhere. Guilty people always give "laughable statements".

Scream? Where did that come from? Did they also make her hit herself in the head with her fists?

 

[MichaelSmith]

It seems to me that there was at least a one hour delay while everyone waited for the translator to arrive. The questioning ended upon Knox's status being changed from that of a witness to a suspect somewhere between 1 and 1:30 AM. That means that there was questioning for just over an hour, and that during that time everything was painfully translated and explained to Knox in English. How much in the way of police tactics and coercion was possible in that short time given the translation factor?

If only all "laughable statements" resulted in the conclusion that: persons that make absurd statements are innocent! That simply doesn't happen ... not anywhere. Guilty people always give "laughable statements".

Scream? Where did that come from? Did they also make her hit herself in the head with her fists?

You don't seem to know much about this. There's nothing in the statements that show knowledge of the crime. The real question is why after a suspect admitts to being at the crime scene did the investigators not get detailed infomation about the crime. Where is the notes of the Q&A?

They bugged the room to record Amanda and Raffaele talking to each other, they recorded phone conversations and had them under surveillance. Yet they didn't record the interrorigations. You believe that?

As for the screams, google is your friend. Giobbi revealed quite a few things I'm sure he regrets

 

[Chris_Halkides]

I've been following this case since November 2007. I am, however, not particularly interested in what the suspects have to say, because they both have reputations for talking rubbish. I also know the facts surrounding Patrick's release from prison ... he produced an alibi and then he was released. Knox did not meet with the prosecutor to tell the truth ... it's all in the court transcripts.

PM Mignini quoted portions of the second memoriale back to Amanda during his cross examination of her in 2009. It's in the transcripts and can be found elsewhere on the web. It is also in Follain (no friend to Amanda) on page 153: "...But now I remember I can't know who was the murderer because I didn't return back to the house." She gave the second memoriale to the authorities on 7 November. Your saying that she did not meet with Mignini may well be true, but it is disingenuous in the extreme. BTW, Patrick did not produce an alibi; the Swiss professor came forward on his own. Even so, Patrick was not released for over a week. If you really followed the case for five years, why do you get so many of the facts wrong?

 

[otto]

You don't seem to know much about this. There's nothing in the statements that show knowledge of the crime. The real question is why after a suspect admitts to being at the crime scene did the investigators not get detailed infomation about the crime. Where is the notes of the Q&A?

They had bugged the room to record Amanda and Raffaele talking to each other, they recorded phone conversations and had them under surveillance. Yet they didn't record the interrorigations. You believe that?

As for the screams, google is your friend. Giobbi revealed quite a few things I'm sure he regrets

I may not be inclined to believe the fragmented arguments about Knox being sooooooooo tired that she had no choice but to falsely accuse an innocent man of murder, that she had no place to sleep because Sollecito had an appointment, or that she was coerced into lying after one hour of police tactics that were filtered through a translator, but that's because I have followed the case for the last 5 years.

Surely you're not asking why investigators did not continue to question Knox after she became a suspect ... we all know the answer is that she had to wait until morning to hire a lawyer, and then she could answer more questions.

I believe that police did not record all the witness statements ... we know that's true. After two suspects were arrested, police used every method legally available to them to obtain more information ... including recording discussions between Knox and her mother in prison.

 

[Footwarrior]

How does a discussion about a phone message go to accusations of murder against an innocent man in under an hour ... all the while working with a translator ... meaning everything has to be said twice?

Perugia had 12 people involved in the questioning that night. If it was just polite questioning, it would only require one or two officers and a translator.

Intimidating a suspect is best done using a tag team approach. That way the officers remain fresh, but the suspect never gets a chance to rest. Also, yelling and intimidation don't really require translation.

 

[otto]

PM Mignini quoted portions of the second memoriale back to Amanda during his cross examination of her in 2009. It's in the transcripts and can be found elsewhere on the web. It is also in Follain (no friend to Amanda) on page 153: "...But now I remember I can't know who was the murderer because I didn't return back to the house." She gave the second memoriale to the authorities on 7 November. Your saying that she did not meet with Mignini may well be true, but it is disingenuous in the extreme. BTW, Patrick did not produce an alibi; the Swiss professor came forward on his own. Even so, Patrick was not released for over a week.

Is that when she said this ... sounds like she suddenly realized that implicating Patrick meant that she too was there, so she was trying to distance herself from that fact:

"I know I didn't kill Meredith. That's all I know for sure. In these flashbacks that I'm having, I see Patrik as the murderer, but the way the truth feels in my mind, there is no way for me to have known because I don't remember FOR SURE if I was at my house that night."

 

[otto]

Perugia had 12 people involved in the questioning that night. If it was just polite questioning, it would only require one or two officers and a translator.

Intimidating a suspect is best done using a tag team approach. That way the officers remain fresh, but the suspect never gets a chance to rest. Also, yelling and intimidation don't really require translation.

Police interviews aren't meant to be tea parties ... it's serious business. People that lie during a murder investigation should be prepared for some heavy handedness from investigators ... I would hope. Still, no laws were broken. I'm sure it wasn't pleasant for Knox, but she made her own bed. She pretended that her entire memory was wiped after smoking some pot ... who is going to believe that!

Knox must have lied about the timing of the evening, and that got her into hot water with police ... she attempted to place dinner three hours later (which provided an alibi) than the dinner in question: the one just before the call from Dr Sollecito. She knew perfectly well that dinner was shortly after she was half way to work ... the message from Patrick ... she returned to Sollecitos, they had dinner, they had the water leak, then the call from Dr Sollecito ... so on ... she knew what time it was.

She was always prompt for class ... she paid attention to schedules and time ... but on the night of the murder, 8 PM was 11 PM. Go figure.

 

[MichaelSmith]

Police interviews aren't meant to be tea parties ... it's serious business. People that lie during a murder investigation should be prepared for some heavy handedness from investigators ... I would hope. Still, no laws were broken. I'm sure it wasn't pleasant for Knox, but she made her own bed. She pretended that her entire memory was wiped after smoking some pot ... who is going to believe that!

Knox must have lied about the timing of the evening, and that got her into hot water with police ... she attempted to place dinner three hours later (which provided an alibi) than the dinner in question: the one just before the call from Dr Sollecito. She knew perfectly well that dinner was shortly after she was half way to work ... the message from Patrick ... she returned to Sollecitos, they had dinner, they had the water leak, then the call from Dr Sollecito ... so on ... she knew what time it was.

She was always prompt for class ... she paid attention to schedules and time ... but on the night of the murder, 8 PM was 11 PM. Go figure.

What's so hard to believe about a young person cracking in a foreign country during a midnight interview with no lawyer after being tag teamed by detectives? She didn't speak the language properly, her friend had been murdered, she wanted to help the police, she was threatened with 30 years in jail and wouldn't be able to see her family again. Neither of the statements contain any infomation that only the killer could know. The reason for that is obvious, she didn't have any infomation to give because she wasn't there.

This is what Patrik had to say about his experience.

"They hit me over the head and yelled 'dirty black'. Then they put handcuffs on me and shoved me out of the door, as Aleksandra pulled Davide away, screaming."
"I was questioned by five men and women, some of whom punched and kicked me," he claims. "They forced me on my knees against the wall and said I should be in America where I would be given the electric chair for my crime. All they kept saying was, 'You did it, you did it.'

It only takes a bit of common sense to figure out what happened.

 

[otto]

What's so hard to believe about a young person cracking in a foreign country during a midnight interview with no lawyer after being tag teamed by detectives? She didn't speak the language properly, her friend had been murdered, she wanted to help the police, she was threatened with 30 years in jail and wouldn't be able to see her family again. Neither of the statements contain any infomation that only the killer could know. The reason for that is obvious, she didn't have any infomation to give because she wasn't there.

This is what Patrik had to say about his experience.

"They hit me over the head and yelled 'dirty black'. Then they put handcuffs on me and shoved me out of the door, as Aleksandra pulled Davide away, screaming."
"I was questioned by five men and women, some of whom punched and kicked me," he claims. "They forced me on my knees against the wall and said I should be in America where I would be given the electric chair for my crime. All they kept saying was, 'You did it, you did it.'

It only takes a bit of common sense to figure out what happened.

Yes, it does.

Knox told police that more than one person was involved in the murder. In her scenario, she was in the kitchen with her fingers stuck in her ears while someone was murdering Meredith in her bedroom. She didn't run for help, she merely waited until they were done, and then ran out behind them.

The evidence indicated that more than one person was involved in the murder. That information was not available prior to the forensic results ... but Knox was quite right ... and as she did the bath matt shuffle ... there was evidence of smearing or cleaning at the cottage ... or were those fruit juice footprints from the bloody bathroom to the bedroom? What did she do ... dump some grapefruit juice in the bloody floor, walk in it to her bedroom and forget to mention this?

And what was all that about trying to break down the bedroom door, running around the cottage and then calling someone else to finish breaking down the door ... that's convoluted ... as is showering in an unoccupied house where the front door was left wide open ... then going to Sollecitos apt to call Filomina and mop the floor when everything is all wrong. I suspect that the other people that were there that day, and Meredith's British friends/family, still believe that Knox is guilty. That is, those most familiar with the case most likely still believe that Knox and Sollecito were involved in the murder.

Knox also stated that Meredith "f-ing bled to death". Right again. Meredith had more than 40 wounds, some of which indicated two separate blades.

You gotta love the letter she wrote home ... what a classic ... come to think of it, maybe it's easy to understand why she is having difficulties writing an autobiography about the facts surrounding her relationship with Meredith Kercher.

We've seen that article referencing Patrick many times on this website. Each time, upon closer inspection, it is clear that Patrick denies giving that statement to the UK ragmag.

Knox appears to have known too much about the murder ... too soon.

 

[MichaelSmith]

Yes, it does.

Knox told police that more than one person was involved in the murder. In her scenario, she was in the kitchen with her fingers stuck in her ears while someone was murdering Meredith in her bedroom. She didn't run for help, she merely waited until they were done, and then ran out behind them.

The evidence indicated that more than one person was involved in the murder. That information was not available prior to the forensic results ... but Knox was quite right ... and as she did the bath matt shuffle ... there was evidence of smearing or cleaning at the cottage ... or were those fruit juice footprints from the bloody bathroom to the bedroom? What did she do ... dump some grapefruit juice in the bloody floor, walk in it to her bedroom and forget to mention this?

And what was all that about trying to break down the bedroom door, running around the cottage and then calling someone else to finish breaking down the door ... that's convoluted ... as is showering in an unoccupied house where the front door was left wide open ... then going to Sollecitos apt to call Filomina and mop the floor when everything is all wrong. I suspect that the other people that were there that day, and Meredith's British friends/family, still believe that Knox is guilty. That is, those most familiar with the case most likely still believe that Knox and Sollecito were involved in the murder.

Knox also stated that Meredith "f-ing bled to death". Right again. Meredith had more than 40 wounds, some of which indicated two separate blades.

You gotta love the letter she wrote home ... what a classic ... come to think of it, maybe it's easy to understand why she is having difficulties writing an autobiography about the facts surrounding her relationship with Meredith Kercher.

We've seen that article referencing Patrick many times on this website. Each time, upon closer inspection, it is clear that Patrick denies giving that statement to the UK ragmag.

Knox appears to have known too much about the murder ... too soon.

It made for a good conspiracy theory the tabloids loved.

You seem to be misinformed about a whole host of things. Let's start with multiple attackers.

From Massei

"The consultants and forensic scientists have asserted that from the point of view of forensic science, it cannot be ruled out that the author of the injuries could have been a single attacker, because the bruises and the wounds from a pointed and cutting weapon are not in themselves incompatible with the action of a single person. With regard to this, it is nevertheless observed that the contribution of each discipline is specifically in the domain of the specific competence of that discipline, and in fact the consultants and forensic experts concentrated their attention on the aspects specifically belonging to forensic science: time of death, cause of death, elements indicating sexual violence, the injuries present on the body of the victim, and the causes and descriptions of these.

The answer given above concerning the possibility of their being inflicted by the action of a single person or by more than one was given in relation to these specific duties and questions, which belong precisely to the domain of forensic science, and the meaning of this answer was thus that there are no scientific elements arising directly from forensic science which could rule out the injuries having been caused by the action of a single person."

And the Supreme Court

"[R]ight from the outset we must resist the attempt -- reflected in [literally "pursued by"] the entire structure of the defense case, but out of place in the context of this decision -- to involve the [Cassazione] panel in endorsing the hypothesis that others, Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox, were responsible for the murder, aggravated by sexual violence, of Meredith Kercher. The decision that this Court is called to make concerns only the responsibility of Guede with regard to the act under dispute; any participation of others in the crime will be taken into account only to the extent that this circumstance bears on the matter that is our only concern: the modification or confirmation of the judgement of responsibility of the defendant -- the latter being wholly agreed upon by the judges of the first and second level."

 

[dog.gone.cute]

Here are some FACTS ... which IMO, easily "connect the dots" that Amanda was NOT "railroaded" by LE after Rafaelle Sollecito told LE that Amanda was NOT at his apartment at the time of the murder :

Rafaelle Sollecito's Family :

1. Rafaelle's father, Dr. Francesco Sollecito, is a proiminent physician in the Bari / Prerugia area.

2. Rafaelle's sister, Vanessa Sollecito, was a Lt. in the Carabinieri -- the Italian Police Department -- AT the time of the murder.

However, Vanessa was FIRED sometime in 2009 for seeking "political favoritism" on behalf of her brother.


JMO ... but considering that Rafaelle came from an "upstanding family" in the Perugia area, it would NOT be unheard of for a family who has "connections", especially LE "connections", to ask for "special favors" for a "family member" ...

BUT the Italian Police could NOT grant, nor even consider any "special favors" because of the INCONSISTENCIES in Rafaelle's OWN statements, which statements did NOT match his phone records, as well as there was evidence and witnesses that placed him at the cottage on the night of Meredith's murder.

The Italian Police had a JOB to do ... and that was to find out WHO killed Meredith and WHO knew WHAT ...

Then they bring in Amanda and tell her what Rafaelle just said, which statements of AK and RS totally contradict each other. Therefore, they BOTH go from being a "witness" to a "suspect" -- as this would be normal SOP in any LE jurisdiction !

And you can bet that the Italian Police were WELL AWARE that Rafaelle had a family member -- a sister -- on the Italian Police Force ... as well as they knew his father was a "prominent physician" in the community ...

Therefore, there would be NO "railroading" of Rafaelle and Amanda ... and NO "hitting on the head" ... and NO "REFUSING of food and water" ... and NO COERCION by the Italian Police !

It is ludicrous as well as outrageous to claim that the Italian Police, Investigators, and Prosecutors would unfairly treat AK and RS while they were at the Police Station.

Rafaelle clearly had "connections" to the Italian Police as his sister was a Lieutenant -- so there is NO doubt that he was treated fairly ... and this SAME standard NO doubt was given to Amanda as well because of her relationship with Rafaelle !

Both Amanda and Rafaelle's numerous inconsistencies in their "story" of the night of the murder is what "did them in" -- NOT LE ... And this was compounded by Amanda's FALSELY ACCUSING an INNOCENT African man, Mr. Patrick Lumumba, of the murder ... There was absolutely NO reason for Amanda to falsely accuse an innocent man -- which reminds me of Susan Smith falsely accusing an African-American man of the murder of her children when Susan herself committed the murder !

JMO ... but there is no doubt they were both treated well ... it was their own LIES that did them in !

:moo::moo::moo:

 

[otto]

It made for a good conspiracy theory the tabloids loved.

You seem to be misinformed about a whole host of things.
<snipped>

I had forgotton how personal this thread is ...

The bottom line is: "Italy's highest criminal court, in upholding his conviction, said Guede had not acted alone."

October 4, 2011
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-202_162-20115400.html

 

[Frankie Hellis]

Here are some FACTS ... which IMO, easily "connect the dots" that Amanda was NOT "railroaded" by LE after Rafaelle Sollecito told LE that Amanda was NOT at his apartment at the time of the murder :

Rafaelle Sollecito's Family :

1. Rafaelle's father, Dr. Francesco Sollecito, is a proiminent physician in the Bari / Prerugia area.

2. Rafaelle's sister, Vanessa Sollecito, was a Lt. in the Carabinieri -- the Italian Police Department -- AT the time of the murder.

However, Vanessa was FIRED sometime in 2009 for seeking "political favoritism" on behalf of her brother.


JMO ... but considering that Rafaelle came from an "upstanding family" in the Perugia area, it would NOT be unheard of for a family who has "connections", especially LE "connections", to ask for "special favors" for a "family member" ...

This IS just your opinion. It is merely an assumption. If you were on trial for murder would you want people making such assumptions?

BUT the Italian Police could NOT grant, nor even consider any "special favors" because of the INCONSISTENCIES in Rafaelle's OWN statements, which statements did NOT match his phone records, as well as there was evidence and witnesses that placed him at the cottage on the night of Meredith's murder.

Please provide a citation for this. I do not believe any witness placed him at the cottage on the night of the murder. A homeless drug addict placed him in the basketball court, but he was later proven to be confused about the date.

And you can bet that the Italian Police were WELL AWARE that Rafaelle had a family member -- a sister -- on the Italian Police Force ... as well as they knew his father was a "prominent physician" in the community ...
Therefore, there would be NO "railroading" of Rafaelle and Amanda ... and NO "hitting on the head" ... and NO "REFUSING of food and water" ... and NO COERCION by the Italian Police !


It is ludicrous as well as outrageous to claim that the Italian Police, Investigators, and Prosecutors would unfairly treat AK and RS while they were at the Police Station.

Rafaelle clearly had "connections" to the Italian Police as his sister was a Lieutenant -- so there is NO doubt that he was treated fairly ... and this SAME standard NO doubt was given to Amanda as well because of her relationship with Rafaelle !
JMO ... but there is no doubt they were both treated well ... it was their own LIES that did them in !

Do you have ANY evidence of ANY this? The Italian police have completely separate entities, depending on the issue with which they are dealing. Vanessa worked in Rome for the carabinieri but these kids were being questioned by the Perugia city police. Do you think your local police would know (or even CARE) if you had a sibling in the State Police or the FBI? It’s the same kind of thing. THEREFORE, this blows your entire personal theory to smithereens.

 

[Footwarrior]

I had forgotton how personal this thread is ...

The bottom line is: "Italy's highest criminal court, in upholding his conviction, said Guede had not acted alone."

October 4, 2011
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-202_162-20115400.html

Both the prosecution and defense in that trail wanted the court to believe that Rudy didn't act alone. In Rudy's side, they wanted to spread the blame. On the prosecution side, they wanted to try Amanda and Raffaele for the same crime.

The court did not hear from anyone representing Amanda or Raffaele.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Police interviews aren't meant to be tea parties ... it's serious business. People that lie during a murder investigation should be prepared for some heavy handedness from investigators ... I would hope. Still, no laws were broken. I'm sure it wasn't pleasant for Knox, but she made her own bed. She pretended that her entire memory was wiped after smoking some pot ... who is going to believe that!

Knox must have lied about the timing of the evening, and that got her into hot water with police ... she attempted to place dinner three hours later (which provided an alibi) than the dinner in question: the one just before the call from Dr Sollecito. She knew perfectly well that dinner was shortly after she was half way to work ... the message from Patrick ... she returned to Sollecitos, they had dinner, they had the water leak, then the call from Dr Sollecito ... so on ... she knew what time it was.

She was always prompt for class ... she paid attention to schedules and time ... but on the night of the murder, 8 PM was 11 PM. Go figure.

There are two logical errors here. One, your inference that dinner was early is based only on the fact that Raffaele was washing the dishes early. Some people wash their old dishes as a prelude to cooking the next meal; therefore, yours is a weak inference. Two, if two people's alibi is that they were home alone together, "having dinner followed by making love" would be precisely equal to "making love followed by having dinner" as a detailed version of events that evening. In other words, there is no reason to lie about the timing of events. Thanks for listening.

 

[Cappuccino]

I had forgotton how personal this thread is ...

The bottom line is: "Italy's highest criminal court, in upholding his conviction, said Guede had not acted alone."

October 4, 2011
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-202_162-20115400.html

No, that's not the bottom line. The real bottom line is that an Italian court which heard all the evidence on both sides declared Knox and Sollecito to be innocent - not merely "not guilty" note, they were declared innocent by the court.

I know those who believe them to be guilty are hoping that the Supreme Court will overturn that and reinstate the convictions. If that is to be the case the prosecution will need alot more than has ever been produced by their supporters in any of these threads about the case. Till then, I will respect the court's verdict of innocence, it certainly seems to be in line with all the evidence I've seen.

 

[otto]

Both the prosecution and defense in that trail wanted the court to believe that Rudy didn't act alone. In Rudy's side, they wanted to spread the blame. On the prosecution side, they wanted to try Amanda and Raffaele for the same crime.

The court did not hear from anyone representing Amanda or Raffaele.

This isn't about Knox, or Sollecito, or what the prosecution, or defense, teams want. This is about the murder of Meredith Kercher. Based on the evidence, Italy's highest court has ruled that Guede did not act alone; more than one person was involved in the murder of Meredith.

 

[otto]

There are two logical errors here. One, your inference that dinner was early is based only on the fact that Raffaele was washing the dishes early. Some people wash their old dishes as a prelude to cooking the next meal; therefore, yours is a weak inference. Two, if two people's alibi is that they were home alone together, "having dinner followed by making love" would be precisely equal to "making love followed by having dinner" as a detailed version of events that evening. In other words, there is no reason to lie about the timing of events. Thanks for listening.

There's no logical error. We know that Knox had a message from Patrick, she returned to Sollecito's apartment, she and Sollecito had dinner, they had a water leak, then Dr Sollecito spoke with his son on the phone at about 8:30about the water leak that occurred after dinner. That provides a very exact timeline for when they had dinner.

The alibis were all over the place. Knox got herself into hot water with police because she fibbed about the time of dinner ... attempting to give herself an alibi by placing the time of dinner three hours later. The reason for lying about the time of dinner was to create a false alibi. Dr Sollecito was responsible for poking a huge hole in that alibi.

 

[otto]

No, that's not the bottom line. The real bottom line is that an Italian court which heard all the evidence on both sides declared Knox and Sollecito to be innocent - not merely "not guilty" note, they were declared innocent by the court.

I know those who believe them to be guilty are hoping that the Supreme Court will overturn that and reinstate the convictions. If that is to be the case the prosecution will need alot more than has ever been produced by their supporters in any of these threads about the case. Till then, I will respect the court's verdict of innocence, it certainly seems to be in line with all the evidence I've seen.

That's beside the point. Based on the evidence, the highest court in Italy has determined that more than one person was involved in the murder of Meredith Kercher. I look forward to the other culprits being tossed in prison for a very long time.

 

[Cappuccino]

That's beside the point. Based on the evidence, the highest court in Italy has determined that more than one person was involved in the murder of Meredith Kercher. I look forward to the other culprits being tossed in prison for a very long time.

If there are other culprits then I certainly share your hope that they will be brought to justice. However, I see no reason to believe that anyone other than Rudy Guede was responsible for this murder, and you have given me no reason to believe any such thing either. All you've given is an appeal to authority, but no court has divine infallibility, no not even the highest court in Italy.