Amanda Knox New Motivation Report RE: Meredith Kercher Murder #1 *new trial ordered*

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  • #661
I'd love to hear your assertion that if two females are at home and a male attacks one of them and the one not being attacked doesn't do anything that she is also involved in the act. I think many if not most would find this to be very offensive towards victims who have actually been in that situation.
But Patrick never killed Meredith and Amanda was never outside the room covering her ears so what's the point of this?
I am no Italian and certainly not a lawyer so don't ask me to quote the Italian Law on this. I just know that Italy has a so called Good Samaritan Law where failure to assist a person in danger has serious legal consequences.
You must've known I would ask for a citation for this. Or are you going to reference some taken out of context tabloid story.
Fair enough. It is from the tabloid the Daily Mail.
Diya wanted her. Raffaele and I went into another room and then I heard screams.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...oxy-changed-tune-night-Meredith-murdered.html

I don't know their source but it is not in the 5:45 statement where she says she is not sure if Sollecito was with her or not.
 
  • #662
Fair enough. It is from the tabloid the Daily Mail

As a Brit I would advise everyone to take what the Daily Mail say with a pinch of salt. They are not highly regarded here. They have had a number of high profile law suits against them for libel (Elton John, Diana Rigg and Alan Sugar to name a few).
 
  • #663
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...oxy-changed-tune-night-Meredith-murdered.html

I don't know their source but it is not in the 5:45 statement where she says she is not sure if Sollecito was with her or not.

I'm trying to find the source for this one. It seems to refer back to her witness statement from 6th November, but everything I can find with that wording (so far) is referencing the Mail article rather than the statement itself. Will keep searching.
 
  • #664
I decided to take a look at PMF and am seeing a lot about Raf's swimming cap which apparently was seen by Rudy and then found by LE?

I haven't heard anything about this and was wondering if anyone could fill me in?
 
  • #665
From the English summary of Raffaele Sollecito's appeal document: "An item of food found in the 3rd distal esophagus was kept in a container but never tested to determine what is was, which likely was an apple from the apple pie desert she ate after dinner and not a mushroom from her home. The defense requests that this sample be tested to confirm what it is. If the sample is apple as the defense believes, the time of death would be closer to the range that the defense suggests, 9:30pm to 10:00pm." Whether it was a mushroom or apple is interesting but not an absolutely vital issue to either the prosecution's case or to the defense's arguments in my judgment. Even if Meredith had eaten a mushroom, it would not change the issues surrounding the lack of material in her duodenum.

IMO the emptiness of the duodenum makes the Mignini/Massei timelines unlikely, just as Meredith's phone records between about 9:58 to 10:15 PM independently do the same thing. The same is true of the lack of a second call to her mother, the lack of texting, the failure to remove the laundry. Moreover, these improbabilities are multiplicative. One more thing: Meredith's apparent t(lag) for this meal was longer than average or median values, so much so that even if one moves the time of her last meal much later, to 7:45 for example, it does not make Massei's TOD more likely than one closer to 9 PM.

If someone believes that Amanda went to her apartment around 9 PM without Raffaele and that there was a confrontation shortly thereafter, then lack-of-duodenum arguments are unlikely to persuade him or her otherwise. However, such a scenario raises other questions: How did Amanda alone communicate with Rudi? How did she communicate with Raffaele if not by cell phone (there being no record of communication between Amanda and Raffaele)? How quickly could Amanda go from acting normally (Popovic) to being so messed up on drugs that she would participate in murder? Why didn't Curatolo see Rudi? I don't mean this as an exhaustive list.

I'm curious about why stomach contents is repeatedly discussed as a valid method for determining time of death when it's a well known fact that it is completely unreliable in terms of determining time of death. It strikes me as similar to saying that a full moon can indicate time of death.

"In her book "Time of Death, The True Story of the Search for Death's Stopwatch" published in 2001, experienced pathologist Jessica Snyder Sachs makes the following observations on the use of stomach contents."

Page 8
"The conviction hinged largely on a medical examiner's opinion that the victim had died during a half hour interval when the two were together, a determination based solely on the food removed from the girl's stomach at autopsy. Today most prudent pathologists scoff at the naivety, if not misconduct, of anyone claiming to pin-point time of death so precisely based on stomach contents. ( Even Baden gives a fudge factor of plus or minus two hours in his determinations )

Page 45
"When challenged, both experts had to admit that the quantity and quality of stomach contents had long ago been dismissed as the most unreliable of all postmortem time scales. Such grasping at straws would continue to be part of medical expert testimony when all else failed."

Time of Death: Jessica Snyder Sachs
 
  • #666
otto,

The line of reasoning I offered is a lack-of-duodenum contents argument, not a stomach contents argument. Please try to understand the difference. The other problem with your argument is that you are implicitly ignoring that we know for a fact that Meredith was alive until roughly 9 PM on the basis of undisputed witness testimony, as well as some supporting evidence that is consistent with this. These two facts, along with information about the time and contents of Meredith's last meal are extremely helpful. Do you think that the Massei timeline is possible from a physiological standpoint? My advice is to think long and hard before answering.
 
  • #667
I am no Italian and certainly not a lawyer so don't ask me to quote the Italian Law on this. I just know that Italy has a so called Good Samaritan Law where failure to assist a person in danger has serious legal consequences.

Fair enough. It is from the tabloid the Daily Mail.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...oxy-changed-tune-night-Meredith-murdered.html

I don't know their source but it is not in the 5:45 statement where she says she is not sure if Sollecito was with her or not.

Yes, these are bogus statements. They are from neither statements.

How someone could claim to be so aware of all the facts yet now, out of the blue, think that Amanda had placed Raf at the scene and this not ever become part of the trial is beyond me.
 
  • #668
I care. So do you have a witness who saw Rudy arriving at 8:30pm or are you making all of this up?

It's from his diary:

I think it would have been around 8:30, approximately. Because we were supposed to see each other at that time, even though I didn’t have a watch I tried to arrive on time, because I usually arrive late. As I arrived in front of the house, I noticed a white car with headlights on, and a Drug-Dealer I often saw on Garibaldi Avenue, but I didn’t make much of this, and I went into the yard. I knocked on the door, but no one answered.

Maybe this...maybe that... I simply quoted what Rudy said in that Skype Call. I don't have to make up these kind of silly stories about mysterious drug dealers. The Appeal Court used the Skype Call to indicate the TOD was earlier than 11:30pm and came to the conclusion that TOD was at 10:15. So obviously they included that Rudy was off with his timing. It is impossible to come to a TOD of 10:15pm when the Appeal Court had taken Rudy's words literally. I feel like I am defending the Appeal Courts reasoning now which is in no way my intention :)

Sherlock, the whole reason this came up was because you stated the appeal court was being "very dishonest" when they placed Rudy at the cottage between 9 and 9:30. You're moving the goalposts so much I don't even know how to address this anymore. I've simply pointed out to you that in both versions by Rudy's own account he is at the cottage between 8:30 and 9:30, so I don't see how they were being dishonest. Now you say they have him there until 10:15. Make up your mind, please.
 
  • #669
I'm trying to find the source for this one. It seems to refer back to her witness statement from 6th November, but everything I can find with that wording (so far) is referencing the Mail article rather than the statement itself. Will keep searching.

It's a DM writer being very liberal with her statements from November 6th. We have all three statements (the two typed up by the police and her hand-written one) and none of them say this. By Novemember 7th she had completely retracted any possibility of Patrick or her being there. Of course no one ever cared to print that one. It's a shame this stuff keeps popping up because it just adds to confusion.
 
  • #670
I decided to take a look at PMF and am seeing a lot about Raf's swimming cap which apparently was seen by Rudy and then found by LE?

I haven't heard anything about this and was wondering if anyone could fill me in?

Do you have a link to the discussion? There are two PMF's and I've never heard of this topic.

ETA: Okay, I was able to track down the original discussion of this on PMF here.

Apparently Rudy gave another statement in March of 2008 in which he states the "attacker" was wearing a white beanie with a red stripe. According to the Italian press, such a cap was found at Raf's. There are multiple problems with this, the main one being that in Rudy's initial description of the man (just weeks after the murder) there's no mention of a cap. But if we are to believe he was describing Raf we also have to take into account that Rudy describes him as left-handed (Raf is right-handed), and that if a white cap Raf was wearing the night of the murder was found it's remarkable that no blood spatters were found on it. On top of all that you have to wonder why Rudy is describing such vague details when he could have just said it was Raf.
 
  • #671
Sherlock, the whole reason this came up was because you stated the appeal court was being "very dishonest" when they placed Rudy at the cottage between 9 and 9:30. You're moving the goalposts so much I don't even know how to address this anymore. I've simply pointed out to you that in both versions by Rudy's own account he is at the cottage between 8:30 and 9:30, so I don't see how they were being dishonest. Now you say they have him there until 10:15. Make up your mind, please.
Exactly, the issue was what the Appeal Court stated so in no way it is suddenly my theory. It is the Appeal Courts theory. They are dishonest because they don't even mention the 8:30pm (and certainly not any 'drug dealer' witness at 8:30pm). As usual their argumentation is lacking and that is why this is part of the Galati appeal. The silly thing is that just in the last few pages we already see 3 different theories that completely contradict what the Appeal Court concluded. And this coming from 'innocent' supporters.

- The theory about Rudy being honest about arriving at 8:30pm, lying about Meredith arriving at 8:30pm, and honest again about Meredith being killed before 9:30pm.
All the other evidence lacks substance: this is the case with the time of death, established by the Court of Assizes of first instance [as having occurred] after 11 PM, and pinpointed by this Court [as having occurred] at around 10:15 PM
he indicates a time between 9 PM and 9:30 PM. And this, even considering the approximation of the information and a possible mistake in observing the time by the same Rudy Guede,
It is clear from the 10:15pm that the Appeal Court considers Rudy did make a mistake (but no explanations are given).

- The theory about Sollecito (and Knox?) watching Naruto for half an hour from 9:26pm till 9:49pm.
Raffaele Sollecito’s computer, examined by the Postal Police, showed no sign of human interaction after 09:10 PM until 5:32 AM;
Nowhere does the Appeal Court even mention any Naruto.

- The theory of an earlier TOD based on lack of duodenum contents.
See the above quote. TOD is pinpointed at 10:15pm. Nowhere does the Appeal Court mention any duodenum theory.

Do we all agree that there should be a retrial if the Appeal court got so much wrong?
 
  • #672
otto,

The line of reasoning I offered is a lack-of-duodenum contents argument, not a stomach contents argument. Please try to understand the difference. The other problem with your argument is that you are implicitly ignoring that we know for a fact that Meredith was alive until roughly 9 PM on the basis of undisputed witness testimony, as well as some supporting evidence that is consistent with this. These two facts, along with information about the time and contents of Meredith's last meal are extremely helpful. Do you think that the Massei timeline is possible from a physiological standpoint? My advice is to think long and hard before answering.

She was alive until she parted ways with her friend shortly before 9 PM, and we know that her cell phone pinged at the wrong location shortly after midnight. After that, we know very little about when she was murdered. What she ate does nothing to assist in clarifying the time of death. What people ate is, as quoted above, highly unreliable in terms of narrowing down the time of death, so how is what she ate relevant?
 
  • #673
I decided to take a look at PMF and am seeing a lot about Raf's swimming cap which apparently was seen by Rudy and then found by LE?

I haven't heard anything about this and was wondering if anyone could fill me in?

At one point Rudy was trying to imply the guy scene at the fountain early on Nov 2 was the killer. It's in one of his appeals documents iirc.

Perugia, November 2, 2007. At 7 am a young blond, with a white cap and a jacket Napapijri, washing his hands soiled with blood at the fountain in piazza Grimana, not far from the cottage of Meredith Kercher, screaming: ' I killed. " Within a few hours (after 13) the city will be turned upside down by the discovery of the murder. Meanwhile, shopkeepers call 118.

It is not a new fact. This episode I'd told on Vanity Fair # 28 of 2008. That young, p.c., has never entered the investigation. «Yet he was dressed like the blond described by Rudy Guede in the first interrogation, when he admitted his presence at the scene of the crime.

http://www.vanityfair.it/news/itali...o-usciti-carcere-sentenza-assolti#?refresh=ce
 
  • #674
Exactly, the issue was what the Appeal Court stated so in no way it is suddenly my theory. It is the Appeal Courts theory. They are dishonest because they don't even mention the 8:30pm (and certainly not any 'drug dealer' witness at 8:30pm). As usual their argumentation is lacking and that is why this is part of the Galati appeal. The silly thing is that just in the last few pages we already see 3 different theories that completely contradict what the Appeal Court concluded. And this coming from 'innocent' supporters.

- The theory about Rudy being honest about arriving at 8:30pm, lying about Meredith arriving at 8:30pm, and honest again about Meredith being killed before 9:30pm.


It is clear from the 10:15pm that the Appeal Court considers Rudy did make a mistake (but no explanations are given).

- The theory about Sollecito (and Knox?) watching Naruto for half an hour from 9:26pm till 9:49pm.

Nowhere does the Appeal Court even mention any Naruto.

- The theory of an earlier TOD based on lack of duodenum contents.
See the above quote. TOD is pinpointed at 10:15pm. Nowhere does the Appeal Court mention any duodenum theory.

Do we all agree that there should be a retrial if the Appeal court got so much wrong?

I don't think you understand what Hellman's report is saying as clearly as you have implied. The argument made is that most likely the time of the attack is approximately 9:30, but no later than 10:13 (the time of the last phone interaction). The court not mentioning Rudy being at the cottage before Meredith arrived (app. 8:30) is irrelevant to his involvement in the murder. 9 to 9:30 is mentioned as the likely time of attack. The time of death argument in the report is simply a rebuttal to the first court pinpointing it at 11:30.

Please clarify what they for a fact got wrong or how some of us have given conflicting theories, as all you've done is quote Galati saying the previous court got it wrong.

ETA: Here is the relevant section from Hellman/Zanetti:
"the aggression, and hence the death shortly thereafter, occurred much before the time supposed by the Corte di Assise of first level: certainly not later than 10:13 pm."

That is not pinpointing it at 10:13.
 
  • #675
I don't think you understand what Hellman's report is saying as clearly as you have implied. The argument made is that most likely the time of the attack is approximately 9:30, but no later than 10:13 (the time of the last phone interaction). The court not mentioning Rudy being at the cottage before Meredith arrived (app. 8:30) is irrelevant to his involvement in the murder. 9 to 9:30 is mentioned as the likely time of attack. The time of death argument in the report is simply a rebuttal to the first court pinpointing it at 11:30.

Please clarify what they for a fact got wrong or how some of us have given conflicting theories, as all you've done is quote Galati saying the previous court got it wrong.
I quoted from the Appeal Courts report.
Thus, it is more consistent with the intentions stated by the young woman, and with the oddities of the above‐mentioned phone calls, to hypothesize that in fact the attack, and hence the death shortly thereafter, occurred much earlier than the time held by the Court of first instance: certainly not later than 10:13 PM.
Where is 9 to 9:30pm mentioned as the likely time of attack? Not even 9:30pm is shortly before their pinpointed TOD of 10:15pm.
 
  • #676
I quoted from the Appeal Courts report.

Where is 9 to 9:30pm mentioned as the likely time of attack? Not even 9:30pm is shortly before their pinpointed TOD of 10:15pm.

They say the attack (and death which occurred shortly afterwards) happened much earlier than the first court's time of 11:30.

(time of attack) about which he had no motive to lie, since he was admitting that he was present in that moment at the house at Via Della Pergola 7, even if denying his own responsibility, points to a time between 9 and 9:30 pm.
 
  • #677
They say the attack (and death which occurred shortly afterwards) happened much earlier than the first court's time of 11:30.
Yes, Rudy points to an attack between 9-9:30pm. Not the judge. The judge does not say Rudy is lying. He says that Rudy made a possible mistake. And then he concludes that he did make a mistake otherwise a TOD of 10:15pm is impossible. Just look at my previous quotes from the Appeal Court.
 
  • #678
p. 132 (Massei): "He recalled the reports by Dr. Lalli and the other experts stating that under macroscopic examination, the stomach contents revealed a piece of apple and floury fragments which might have been from the crumble or from the pizza." p. 139 also mentions this. p. 148 "a part was however more clearly distinguishable and recognisable as slices of apple." Along with what Meredith was known to have eaten (apple crumble), the presence of apple in the stomach makes it plausible that what was in the esophagus was also apple.
 
  • #679
She was alive until she parted ways with her friend shortly before 9 PM, and we know that her cell phone pinged at the wrong location shortly after midnight. After that, we know very little about when she was murdered. What she ate does nothing to assist in clarifying the time of death. What people ate is, as quoted above, highly unreliable in terms of narrowing down the time of death, so how is what she ate relevant?
You are still misunderstanding the difference between t(lag), t(1/2), and the time it takes for complete stomach emptying. A website associated with Colorado State states, "An example of how ingested substances spread out in the digestive tube rather than travel synchronously is shown in the figure below... It is clear that parts of the meal are entering the colon at the same time that other parts are still in the stomach." The period between when the stomach started to empty until its completion is over one hundred minutes, however, t(lag) is around 80-90 minutes, very close to the mean and median values I quoted previously. Massei's impression of the crime (p. 366) implies Meredith's t(lag) would have to be greater than 300 minutes, and the entire period (6:30 until their putative arrival at 11:00) would have been stress-free. That t(lag) could be so long has no support whatsover in the scientific literature on the subject. If no one can find an example of t(lag) being this long, then the implicit claim that it was cannot be taken seriously.
 
  • #680
You are still misunderstanding the difference between t(lag), t(1/2), and the time it takes for complete stomach emptying. A website associated with Colorado State states, "An example of how ingested substances spread out in the digestive tube rather than travel synchronously is shown in the figure below... It is clear that parts of the meal are entering the colon at the same time that other parts are still in the stomach." The period between when the stomach started to empty until its completion is over one hundred minutes, however, t(lag) is around 80-90 minutes, very close to the mean and median values I quoted previously. Massei's impression of the crime (p. 366) implies Meredith's t(lag) would have to be greater than 300 minutes, and the entire period (6:30 until their putative arrival at 11:00) would have been stress-free. That t(lag) could be so long has no support whatsover in the scientific literature on the subject. If no one can find an example of t(lag) being this long, then the implicit claim that it was cannot be taken seriously.

Are you disagreeing with pathologists that dismiss stomach contents as an indicator of time of death? Even though food in the body of a deceased person cannot assist in determining the time of death, you refer to the food in the body of a deceased person has being somehow meaningful. That's the part that I don't get. There are too many factors related to stomach contents that come into play when a person is murdered, including the possibility of food traveling from the stomach towards the esophagus. How does this fact work with your theory?
 
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