Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#10

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  • #961
There were also many cameras going in Boston at the time of the bombing, no comparison.

How do you know he wore his shoes to Germany? That's speculation, he spent the the whole next day in Perugia and went clubbing in the nights following the murder. Do you also believe he kept the murder weapon until Germany?

That is not my theory. I think they were done and the alarm had been sounded.
Nothing was perfect including their stories.

I think they were done also, which is why they called Filomena. They were ready to put their plan into action.

They needed to leave some things so that Amanda would have seen something to raise enough question for her to call Filomena.

The blood droplets in the bathroom, well, whose blood would that be? Whose blood was prominent in the house, who was murdered in the house?? Of course, Meredith. Why would Meredith's blood point to them?

The footprint.....a male footprint....that was just further confirmation that a male burglar/stranger had been in the house. That takes suspicion further away from Amanda. Amanda obviously believed that if police thought a male burglar had come in and murdered Meredith, then they would obviously attribute that footprint to the burglar. Why would they go asking for Raffaele's footprint to match it up with?

Another thing with the bathmat print might be like Amber said....they thought police would not recognize it as a print. Thus it was just a blob of Meredith's blood. Again, a blob of Meredith's blood does not point to them.
 
  • #962
I know, she didn't. It's baffling that it didn't appear as one to her.

Maybe she thought that since the investigators weren't running with the burglar story like she thought they would, and since they were under suspicion at that point, maybe she should venture away from stating it as a footprint.
 
  • #963
Apparently I misunderstood. I'm sorry. So you do agree the window was broken already when they alerted Filomena.

I understand for some reason it was insufficient to tell about the window? For example: "there is a window broken, I'm going now to fetch Raffaele". But didn't the information about the window prompt Filomena to come to the villa immediately?

I think you are thinking that Amanda and RS wanted the police to become involved from the get-go. I believe that they did not. They wanted first only for someone else to discover it along with them, that someone else would have to do the things like call the police, etc..

It would make sense that if 2 people commit murder, they would not want to be the same two and only two to "discover" the body as well. They would want someone else there to deflect attention from them.

It was not a matter of Filomena coming - they wanted Filomena to come. They wanted someone else with them to "discover" the body.

And I know what the next question is going to be - why did they want to be there at all when the body is discovered?

Because that makes them appear more innocent. Just like the innocent side is saying, "why would they 'sound the alarm' to anyone in the first place if they had anything to do with it?" That is precisely what they wanted the investigators and others to think, IMO.

What better way to appear "innocent" of the murder than actually alerting to the murder yourself?

Except they didn't want to be the only ones to actually discover the body, that might actually backfire and make them appear suspicious.

So they brought Filomena in to come in and distract from them. That way they can appear innocent in being the ones who alerted to something being wrong in the cottage, but also not appear suspicious for having discovered the body.
 
  • #964
I'm returning to the question of SMK that started the exchange:



There was a broken window to alert about, why not clean up all the blood evidence?

I thought Amber already answered this question way back when in the first response to SMK?

Anyway, I also answered it. She needed something not so ahem, obvious, as a broken window so that she could mull around the cottage for a bit to account for any fingerprints, DNA, etc..
 
  • #965
Yes, but the actual question was why were the highly incriminating blood traces not cleaned up?

Consider a story like this:

coming home, shower, hair drying, poo discovery,
checking Filomena's room, broken window, call to Filomena, going to alert and fetch Raffaele ( Amanda can't call the police on her own). Filomena calls the police, arrives shortly, done.

All of your requirements are satisfied, no need for leaving blood traces or footprints.

Remember, Amanda does not like to do anything by herself. There must be others there to deflect blame onto.

Discovering the broken window at that time, would have left everything up to her to do. There is no "confusion" about seeing a broken window. Remember, Amanda claimed she was "confused" about the signs -- did it mean something, did it not mean something? She JUST DIDN"T KNOW!! HELP!!! I"M CONFUSED!!! Someone help me! The confusion is JUST TOO MUCH.

Amanda did not want the ball to be in her court, up to her to make all the decisions, all the attention on her, for natural reasons if you are the murderer.

I really think, IMO, that Amanda was mainly looking out for Amanda. I believe that both she and Raffaele thought that Amanda would be the most likely to be under suspicion out of the two since she was a roommate and lived in the house. I believe they thought Raffaele would be kind of "out of the picture" since he lived somewhere else and what would he have to do with Meredith? (Just like innocent side is saying).

I do not hestitate for one second in saying that if Amanda did not need Raffaele for her alibi and to keep his mouth shut about both of their involvement, she would have thrown him under the bus long ago.

IMO, she only looks out for herself.
 
  • #966
I really think, IMO, that Amanda was mainly looking out for Amanda. I believe that both she and Raffaele thought that Amanda would be the most likely to be under suspicion out of the two since she was a roommate and lived in the house. I believe they thought Raffaele would be kind of "out of the picture" since he lived somewhere else and what would he have to do with Meredith? (Just like innocent side is saying).

I do not hestitate for one second in saying that if Amanda did not need Raffaele for her alibi and to keep his mouth shut about both of their involvement, she would have thrown him under the bus long ago.

IMO, she only looks out for herself.

Interestingly, I read the first two chapters of Raffaele's book (free sample on Kindle) and he sounds very disgruntled that everyone thought he was blindly following Amanda, that SHE was some kind of mastermind whereas he was invisible at best.
 
  • #967
IMO, she only looks out for herself.

yes, that's exactly why she generously included links to both RS and MK funds on her own website --
 
  • #968
Interestingly, I read the first two chapters of Raffaele's book (free sample on Kindle) and he sounds very disgruntled that everyone thought he was blindly following Amanda, that SHE was some kind of mastermind whereas he was invisible at best.

It seems to me like they were both doing a lot to try to protect Amanda. So either that was both of their plan, in that they both thought Amanda would be under the most suspicion since she was the house-mate and friend. Or the plan was concocted by Amanda to protect Amanda.
 
  • #969
yes, that's exactly why she generously included links to both RS and MK funds on her own website --

She needs Raffaele by necessity. He was her alibi, she was his. Also to make sure he keeps his mouth shut about both of them.
 
  • #970
i read an article a few days ago (of course i have no idea where to find it now) about the cameras perugia does have... to fight/deter crime. it's too bad NONE of them cover the area/streets b/w the cottage and RS's apartment...

bumping to add--

dempsey's blog mentions the cams too... but she has info i've never seen before... that there ARE cams b/w the two homes and the prosecution REFUSED to allow the families to view the footage... nor did they ever release the footage... hmmm, wonder why?? !!

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2012/09/26/raffaele-sollecito-i-spent-that-night-with-amanda-knox/

**interesting anecdote from the ghostwriter about being slapped in the back of the head just like AK and RS assert... guess they're all lyin'!!
 
  • #971
I realize that, when I am typing this out and trying to convey what I think they thought the logic was behind their actions, it comes across as complicated. And leads to questions such as, why would they do something so complicated?

But IMO, it is only complicated because it is hard to convey the logic "second-hand"....meaning first it comes from RS and Amanda originally, and then we or I have to go back and try to explain what I think they were thinking at the time. That is necessarily going to sound complicated.

I don't believe it would be that complicated for them in the moment. Because one action would lead to another, the other to the next, then after that like a rolling ball. One thought would lead to another, and another and another in a progression.

As they were cleaning up, one thing would have lead to another. How are we going to explain this (some specific thing)? Okay, let's do this. Okay, now what about this? Let's do this and this. From there they get to the next stumbling block, figure out answer for that. Etc. Etc..

It only sounds complicated because when we break it down into such detail, it is going to, IMO, necessarily seem complicated.

Like in trials, when they break down the time of the murder into minutes and sometimes seconds, in such detail. And it makes it seem like the perp concocted this whole elaborate plan, but really they were doing whatever they did in the moment, and it just seems that way in hindsight.

So that's my two cents on that. Plink, plink.
 
  • #972
Do you honestly think the store owner's memory was as clear a year later as it was in the days following the murder?

Let's keep in mind that the media had been covering the murder for that ensuing 12 months and so the shop owner had seen AK and heard Mignini's account of the murder repeatedly during that year.

And you think all that coverage had no effect on the owner's memory? I don't think you understand how human memory works.
<mod snip>. Of course you take any witness seriously with new information. Even when they come forward after years. Yes, sometimes it takes some searching to find these witnesses. They don't all jump up immediately. His testimony is very precise and consistent. Even after years. That is what matters.
 
  • #973
I think they were done also, which is why they called Filomena. They were ready to put their plan into action.

They needed to leave some things so that Amanda would have seen something to raise enough question for her to call Filomena.

The blood droplets in the bathroom, well, whose blood would that be? Whose blood was prominent in the house, who was murdered in the house?? Of course, Meredith. Why would Meredith's blood point to them?

The footprint.....a male footprint....that was just further confirmation that a male burglar/stranger had been in the house. That takes suspicion further away from Amanda. Amanda obviously believed that if police thought a male burglar had come in and murdered Meredith, then they would obviously attribute that footprint to the burglar. Why would they go asking for Raffaele's footprint to match it up with?

Another thing with the bathmat print might be like Amber said....they thought police would not recognize it as a print. Thus it was just a blob of Meredith's blood. Again, a blob of Meredith's blood does not point to them.
To clean the bathroom floor Knox would put aside the bathmat. It is not like Knox was staring at a footprint all the time. Maybe only for a second when she put it back, and at that moment she did not recognize it as a footprint. IMO.
 
  • #974
<mod snip> Of course you take any witness seriously with new information. Even when they come forward after years. Yes, sometimes it takes some searching to find these witnesses. They don't all jump up immediately. His testimony is very precise and consistent. Even after years. That is what matters.

<mod snip>

There's a big difference between a witness coming forward years later solving a cold case and a witness who shortly after the crime when shown photos of the accused said they weren't in the store on November 2 and the two or so times they were in the store, they were together and then suddenly at the urging of a journalist a year later completely changed his story.

He is anything but precise and consistent.
 
  • #975
I realize that, when I am typing this out and trying to convey what I think they thought the logic was behind their actions, it comes across as complicated. And leads to questions such as, why would they do something so complicated?

But IMO, it is only complicated because it is hard to convey the logic "second-hand"....meaning first it comes from RS and Amanda originally, and then we or I have to go back and try to explain what I think they were thinking at the time. That is necessarily going to sound complicated.

I don't believe it would be that complicated for them in the moment. Because one action would lead to another, the other to the next, then after that like a rolling ball. One thought would lead to another, and another and another in a progression.

As they were cleaning up, one thing would have lead to another. How are we going to explain this (some specific thing)? Okay, let's do this. Okay, now what about this? Let's do this and this. From there they get to the next stumbling block, figure out answer for that. Etc. Etc..

It only sounds complicated because when we break it down into such detail, it is going to, IMO, necessarily seem complicated.

Like in trials, when they break down the time of the murder into minutes and sometimes seconds, in such detail. And it makes it seem like the perp concocted this whole elaborate plan, but really they were doing whatever they did in the moment, and it just seems that way in hindsight.

So that's my two cents on that. Plink, plink.

I am trying to understand your point of view on this. It really leaves me very confused, however. Can you think of any other cases that have the same kind of complicated staging?

I just can't picture why they would clean the flat -- really well, not even leaving evidence of cleaning -- but deliberately leave bits of evidence so that there is something to draw the alarm?

Why not just do their super scrub, leave on their planned day trip, and leave the discovery to someone else?
 
  • #976
I am trying to understand your point of view on this. It really leaves me very confused, however. Can you think of any other cases that have the same kind of complicated staging?

I just can't picture why they would clean the flat -- really well, not even leaving evidence of cleaning -- but deliberately leave bits of evidence so that there is something to draw the alarm?

Why not just do their super scrub, leave on their planned day trip, and leave the discovery to someone else?

Yes there are many cases with complicated staging. Haven't you ever read about a case and thought "why would he/she do that"? Who knows what's going through the mind of a killer in the moment. It's impossible to think of everything from everyone's perspective.

Personally I don't think it's complicated at all. Like Aa said it only seems complicated when trying to relay it in writing but it's quite simpler in my mind.

I also think they could've gone to Guibbio and left it completely to someone else but IMO they wanted to control the scene a bit. Make sure things were seen their way sort of.
 
  • #977
Yes there are many cases with complicated staging. Haven't you ever read about a case and thought "why would he/she do that"? Who knows what's going through the mind of a killer in the moment. It's impossible to think of everything from everyone's perspective.

Personally I don't think it's complicated at all. Like Aa said it only seems complicated when trying to relay it in writing but it's quite simpler in my mind.

I also think they could've gone to Guibbio and left it completely to someone else but IMO they wanted to control the scene a bit. Make sure things were seen their way sort of.

Can you name one? I can't think of one that unfolds the way you say this one does.
 
  • #978
Yes there are many cases with complicated staging. Haven't you ever read about a case and thought "why would he/she do that"? Who knows what's going through the mind of a killer in the moment. It's impossible to think of everything from everyone's perspective.

Personally I don't think it's complicated at all. Like Aa said it only seems complicated when trying to relay it in writing but it's quite simpler in my mind.

I also think they could've gone to Guibbio and left it completely to someone else but IMO they wanted to control the scene a bit. Make sure things were seen their way sort of.
BBM:

Below is a very complicated case of simulation of a crime scene, taken from an appendix of a text about a case in which 3 people were stabbed to death in an apartment, and a fourth was implicated in the crime.

Interestingly enough, the police concluded that an unknown "lone wolf" had done the crime:


Conclusion 2: The crime scene in this case appears to have been staged to
implicate Charles B. Davis.

The simulated, or staged, crime scene is that in which the physical evidence has been purposefully altered to mislead authorities or redirect the investigation (Turvey,
2002, p. 249). Evidence may be added, relocated, removed, obscured, or even obliterated to serve this purpose.
The evidence found at the crime scene in this case is most consistent with having been staged to implicate Charles B. Davis. This is based on a careful consideration of the following observations and inconsistencies in the evidence:
1. The person who committed the murders in this case would have had
sustained various amounts of bloody transfer from stabbing the victims.
Consequently, there would be mixtures of the victim&#8217;s blood on the
offender&#8217;s hands, forearms, clothing, and exposed skin.
2. Dan Kinkade found the door at the crime scene to be closed and locked.
There would have been blood on the offender&#8217;s hands, which would have
transferred onto the doorknob when the offender closed and locked it.
No blood is observed on the interior or exterior doorknob at the crime
scene. This suggests three possibilities: the offender was wearing gloves
and removed them before leaving the victim&#8217;s apartment; the offender
cleaned up the bloody transfer that was left behind; or more than one
person was at the scene with the offender and the other person closed
and locked the door. The fact that gloves were not found in association
with this crime, while other bloody clothing items were found, suggests
that gloves were not used. Further, there is no evidence that the doorknob
was cleaned off. This leaves the possibility that at least one other person
was present when the victims were killed, and this person closed and
locked the door for the offender. This final possibility appears to be the
most likely.
3. According to witness statements, Charles Davis knocked on Cherish
Putnam&#8217;s apartment door&#8212;3549 Windrift Way, Apt. #223, Vista,
California&#8212;at approximately 12:30 a.m. Cherish Putnam is his
daughter. Ms. Putnam&#8217;s door is approximately 100 feet from the door
of Dana Beckmeyer. Crime scene photos clearly show a bloodstain
smear pattern on the outside of Ms. Putnam&#8217;s door, up and to the
left of the exterior doorknob. However, witnesses stated that Charles
Davis&#8217;s hands were not bloody when he entered her apartment and that
he did not wash his hands or shower subsequently. This is inconsistent
with the ability to leave behind a bloody smear on any door at any
time when entering or exiting a residence. This suggests the strong
possibility that someone other than Mr. Davis placed the bloody smear
on the door.
4. According to witness statements, Charles Davis prepared a bag of clothing
and was given access to a vehicle. However, the evidence is clear that he left on foot and without the belongings he had allegedly prepared. This would
seem to be contradictory.
5. According to witness statements, Cherish Putnam and her roommate
Christina Mauga allegedly aided Charles Davis in concealing his
connection to the crime by helping him clean up at a gas station. Ms.
Mauga stated that she sprayed gasoline on Mr. Davis&#8217;s hands, and he
rubbed them together to clean them off. However, no blood was found on
the door of the victim&#8217;s apartment or in Ms. Putnam&#8217;s vehicle. Moreover,
investigators did not note detecting the smell of gasoline in relation to
Ms. Putnam&#8217;s vehicle or objects touched by Mr. Bernard subsequent to this
alleged cleaning event.
6. According to witness statements, Cherish Putnam and her roommate
Christina Mauga allegedly aided Charles Davis in concealing his
connection to the crime by driving with him to a pier in Oceanside to
dispose of the alleged murder weapon, a K-Bar knife. However, after giving
multiple false statements to investigators, Ms. Mauga lead the police to the
location where the knife had been disposed of. In fact, Ms. Mauga stated
that she disposed of the knife by dropping it in such a fashion that she
would be able to find it later.
7. According to witness statements, Cherish Putnam waited
for an extended period of time before investigating the
Beckmeyer residence after initially being woken by her
father. Moreover, she did not call the police but rather
some neighbors (Kelly and Dan Kinkade), so that the
neighbor would actually investigate the scene and find the
bodies. The enlistment of an impartial witness to assist
with &#8220;discovering&#8221; the crime is a classic feature of crime
scene staging.
8. According to forensic reports, the jacket recovered from
the dumpster in association with this crime has DNA from
the victims&#8217; blood, as well as unidentified bloodstains.
It is common in cases involving sharp-force weapons for
offenders to injure themselves and bleed at the scene or
on their own clothing. Charles Davis has been excluded
as the source of the unidentified bloodstains on this
clothing. These facts are consistent with the possibility
that an unidentified assailant killed the victims, injured
himself or herself, and bled on the jacket.
http://booksite.elsevier.com/9780123852434/appendices/Third_Edition_Appendix_IV.pdf
 
  • #979
Can you name one? I can't think of one that unfolds the way you say this one does.

You can't think of any murder where you've questioned the actions of the killer? I wonder how cops ever become suspicious of suspects in the first place.

Jodi Arias had quite the staging, she for some reason drug TAs body back to shower. Why would she do that, what changed by finding in in that position in the shower? She also was able to successfully dispose of many things yet she thought it was a good idea to leave behind a camera that had pictures of her and her crime in action. For some reason she thought because she took the time to delete the pictures and run it through the washing machine, she was good. Why not just take that camera and dispose of it? Much simpler. She also pre planned her trip down to how much gas she would need to get out of Arizona with a "hidden" 3rd has can. Why did she use her credit card to fill all of these? Would've the simpler thing to do be get cash from an atm to pay with?

Martin MacNeil had such a "good" staging that he almost got away with it. He made himself available for the discovery but used his 6year old daughter to do it. It was clear he wanted to make sure people saw the story from his point of view.

IMO almost every case unfolds this way. I used these 2 as examples because they are my most recent follows but I could go on and on.
 
  • #980
BBM:

Below is a very complicated case of simulation of a crime scene, taken from an appendix of a text about a case in which 3 people were stabbed to death in an apartment, and a fourth was implicated in the crime.

Interestingly enough, the police concluded that an unknown "lone wolf" had done the crime:


Conclusion 2: The crime scene in this case appears to have been staged to
implicate Charles B. Davis.

The simulated, or staged, crime scene is that in which the physical evidence has been purposefully altered to mislead authorities or redirect the investigation (Turvey,
2002, p. 249). Evidence may be added, relocated, removed, obscured, or even obliterated to serve this purpose.
The evidence found at the crime scene in this case is most consistent with having been staged to implicate Charles B. Davis. This is based on a careful consideration of the following observations and inconsistencies in the evidence:
1. The person who committed the murders in this case would have had
sustained various amounts of bloody transfer from stabbing the victims.
Consequently, there would be mixtures of the victim’s blood on the
offender’s hands, forearms, clothing, and exposed skin.
2. Dan Kinkade found the door at the crime scene to be closed and locked.
There would have been blood on the offender’s hands, which would have
transferred onto the doorknob when the offender closed and locked it.
No blood is observed on the interior or exterior doorknob at the crime
scene. This suggests three possibilities: the offender was wearing gloves
and removed them before leaving the victim’s apartment; the offender
cleaned up the bloody transfer that was left behind; or more than one
person was at the scene with the offender and the other person closed
and locked the door. The fact that gloves were not found in association
with this crime, while other bloody clothing items were found, suggests
that gloves were not used. Further, there is no evidence that the doorknob
was cleaned off. This leaves the possibility that at least one other person
was present when the victims were killed, and this person closed and
locked the door for the offender. This final possibility appears to be the
most likely.
3. According to witness statements, Charles Davis knocked on Cherish
Putnam’s apartment door—3549 Windrift Way, Apt. #223, Vista,
California—at approximately 12:30 a.m. Cherish Putnam is his
daughter. Ms. Putnam’s door is approximately 100 feet from the door
of Dana Beckmeyer. Crime scene photos clearly show a bloodstain
smear pattern on the outside of Ms. Putnam’s door, up and to the
left of the exterior doorknob. However, witnesses stated that Charles
Davis’s hands were not bloody when he entered her apartment and that
he did not wash his hands or shower subsequently. This is inconsistent
with the ability to leave behind a bloody smear on any door at any
time when entering or exiting a residence. This suggests the strong
possibility that someone other than Mr. Davis placed the bloody smear
on the door.
4. According to witness statements, Charles Davis prepared a bag of clothing
and was given access to a vehicle. However, the evidence is clear that he left on foot and without the belongings he had allegedly prepared. This would
seem to be contradictory.
5. According to witness statements, Cherish Putnam and her roommate
Christina Mauga allegedly aided Charles Davis in concealing his
connection to the crime by helping him clean up at a gas station. Ms.
Mauga stated that she sprayed gasoline on Mr. Davis’s hands, and he
rubbed them together to clean them off. However, no blood was found on
the door of the victim’s apartment or in Ms. Putnam’s vehicle. Moreover,
investigators did not note detecting the smell of gasoline in relation to
Ms. Putnam’s vehicle or objects touched by Mr. Bernard subsequent to this
alleged cleaning event.
6. According to witness statements, Cherish Putnam and her roommate
Christina Mauga allegedly aided Charles Davis in concealing his
connection to the crime by driving with him to a pier in Oceanside to
dispose of the alleged murder weapon, a K-Bar knife. However, after giving
multiple false statements to investigators, Ms. Mauga lead the police to the
location where the knife had been disposed of. In fact, Ms. Mauga stated
that she disposed of the knife by dropping it in such a fashion that she
would be able to find it later.
7. According to witness statements, Cherish Putnam waited
for an extended period of time before investigating the
Beckmeyer residence after initially being woken by her
father. Moreover, she did not call the police but rather
some neighbors (Kelly and Dan Kinkade), so that the
neighbor would actually investigate the scene and find the
bodies. The enlistment of an impartial witness to assist
with “discovering” the crime is a classic feature of crime
scene staging.
8. According to forensic reports, the jacket recovered from
the dumpster in association with this crime has DNA from
the victims’ blood, as well as unidentified bloodstains.
It is common in cases involving sharp-force weapons for
offenders to injure themselves and bleed at the scene or
on their own clothing. Charles Davis has been excluded
as the source of the unidentified bloodstains on this
clothing. These facts are consistent with the possibility
that an unidentified assailant killed the victims, injured
himself or herself, and bled on the jacket.
http://booksite.elsevier.com/9780123852434/appendices/Third_Edition_Appendix_IV.pdf

Do you have other sources for this case? I tried to find info but couldn't. This seems to be from Charles Davis' appeal documents, but I would love to see what the other side argued.
 
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