Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#10

[Monzoo]

You can't think of any murder where you've questioned the actions of the killer? I wonder how cops ever become suspicious of suspects in the first place.

Jodi Arias had quite the staging, she for some reason drug TAs body back to shower. Why would she do that, what changed by finding in in that position in the shower? She also was able to successfully dispose of many things yet she thought it was a good idea to leave behind a camera that had pictures of her and her crime in action. For some reason she thought because she took the time to delete the pictures and run it through the washing machine, she was good. Why not just take that camera and dispose of it? Much simpler. She also pre planned her trip down to how much gas she would need to get out of Arizona with a "hidden" 3rd has can. Why did she use her credit card to fill all of these? Would've the simpler thing to do be get cash from an atm to pay with?

Martin MacNeil had such a "good" staging that he almost got away with it. He made himself available for the discovery but used his 6year old daughter to do it. It was clear he wanted to make sure people saw the story from his point of view.

IMO almost every case unfolds this way. I used these 2 as examples because they are my most recent follows but I could go on and on.

I would say that what Jodi arias did was an unsuccessful attempt at removing evidence. I wouldn't necessarily call it staging.

I am not familiar with the McNeil case. Can you explain how he staged the scene?

 

[SMK]

Do you have other sources for this case? I tried to find info but couldn't. This seems to be from Charles Davis' appeal documents, but I would love to see what the other side argued.

Unfortunately, this is all I have, which I found through researching simulated crime scenes. I will try and see if I can find anything else on the case.

 

[SMK]

I thought this was an interesting detail in the Davis case cited above,

as it corresponds to what some have said about Knox and Sollecito wanting Filomena to "discover" the murder:
(@aa and Amber29)

According to witness statements, Cherish Putnam waited for an extended period of time before investigating the Beckmeyer residence after initially being woken by her father. (Knox waited quite some time )

Moreover, she did not call the police but rather some neighbors (Kelly and Dan Kinkade), so that the neighbor would actually investigate the scene and find the bodies. (Knox called Filomena and her mother in Seattle; Sollecito called his sister)

The enlistment of an impartial witness to assist
with “discovering” the crime is a classic feature of crime scene staging.

(Knox and Sollectio wanting Filomena to come and investigate)

http://booksite.elsevier.com/9780123852434/appendices/Third_Edition_Appendix_IV.pdf

 

[Amber29]

I would say that what Jodi arias did was an unsuccessful attempt at removing evidence. I wouldn't necessarily call it staging.

I am not familiar with the McNeil case. Can you explain how he staged the scene?

We were discussing their "clean up" and morning story when this statement of making things too complicated came up.

I was not discussing a staging really, more just how the morning unfolded and the thoughts behind some of the decisions IMO. I shouldn't have referred to JA as a staging I guess.

I'm sorry you don't see the comparison.

Martin MacNeil had drugged his wife and put her in the bathtub. He had then gone to a work function where he insisted on being photographed. Then he picked up his 6yr old from school and went home. He sent his daughter to look for her mother, after the daughter made the discovery he sent her to get help while he drained the water from the tub. He then made multiple phone calls even claiming to have attempted CPR on his wife, though she was laying in a bathtub. He and a neighbor moved her from the tub. What Michelle was wearing and the position of her body vary depending on who you talk to, the daughter, neighbors, and Martin don't match in their versions. Martin made a scene in front of the paramedics blaming Michelle for the surgery she had had and basically blaming the over dose on her. He made sure her prescriptions were all flushed even but not by him. I'm sorry there's so much more to this story but I won't go further. He was so convincing though that her death was ruled natural and he almost got away with, if not for Michelle's sister and their daughters persistence.

 

[Katody]

Yes no RS DNA in the bathroom is as interesting as no RG DNA there yet he was to have used every bathroom fixture. Why do you suppose RGs DNA isn't in the footprint you attribute to him?

What I find interesting is that there is no Raffaele's DNA in the bathroom traces. Do you think he didn't clean himself up there?

On the other hand there is his footprint in there. This is a bit baffling, but I'm sure we can overcome this obstacle.

I think the key to this is the starting point of the footprint trail leading to the bathmat.

You said earlier that there was a partial unsuccessful cleanup in the corridor and no clean up in the murder room. That rules out the murder room as the starting point. But where did Raffaele step in blood?

About the partial unsuccessful cleanup - it's not clear to me, did they clean up the corridor before Guede walked there leaving his shoeprints?

 

[Amber29]

What I find interesting is that there is no Raffaele's DNA in the bathroom traces. Do you think he didn't clean himself up there?

On the other hand there is his footprint in there. This is a bit baffling, but I'm sure we can overcome this obstacle.

I think the key to this is the starting point of the footprint trail leading to the bathmat.

You said earlier that there was a partial unsuccessful cleanup in the corridor and no clean up in the murder room. That rules out the murder room as the starting point. But where did Raffaele step in blood?

About the partial unsuccessful cleanup - it's not clear to me, did they clean up the corridor before Guede walked there leaving his shoeprints?

I also went on to say there was a clean up of the prints from the source to the bathmat. I do not think Meredith's room was mopped but I do think a partial cleanup of prints was done. Was luminol applied in Meredith's room? I guess it doesn't matter because I think some prints were successfully eliminated.

No they did not clean the corridor before RG walked down the corridor.
I do not think the whole corridor was "mopped" clearly.

I find it funny you question no RS DNA in the bathroom yet you are ok with no RG DNA in there. Some one implied before with this discussion that RG washing up wouldn't leave his DNA. Even though he was able to use and leave traces of MKs blood on multiple fixtures in the bathroom. Some of which landed on AKs DNA/blood. He must've been very careful while washing up not to get diluted blood splashes on the tile, rim of the bidet, or edging of the sink. Do you think RG cleaned these after washing up?

 

[Amber29]

I thought this was an interesting detail in the Davis case cited above,

as it corresponds to what some have said about Knox and Sollecito wanting Filomena to "discover" the murder:
(@aa and Amber29)

(Knox and Sollectio wanting Filomena to come and investigate)

http://booksite.elsevier.com/9780123852434/appendices/Third_Edition_Appendix_IV.pdf

Thank you yes exactly and I think they waited as long as they could before calling 112 only minutes before Filomena and others arrived.

 

[Katody]

I also went on to say there was a clean up of the prints from the source to the bathmat. I do not think Meredith's room was mopped but I do think a partial cleanup of prints was done.

Thanks for clarifying this. So we have a clean up in Meredith's room after all. Not by mopping but some other means. How do you think that clean up was done, in practical terms?

Was luminol applied in Meredith's room? I guess it doesn't matter because I think some prints were successfully eliminated.

To the point of being undetectable by luminol, I understand.

No they did not clean the corridor before RG walked down the corridor.
I do not think the whole corridor was "mopped" clearly.

I see. They cleaned after Guede walked. I understand the cleaning was done in a manner that preserved Guede's prints but removed other prints to the point of being undetectable by luminol, both in Meredith's room and in the corridor.

I find it funny you question no RS DNA in the bathroom yet you are ok with no RG DNA in there. Some one implied before with this discussion that RG washing up wouldn't leave his DNA. Even though he was able to use and leave traces of MKs blood on multiple fixtures in the bathroom. Some of which landed on AKs DNA/blood. He must've been very careful while washing up not to get diluted blood splashes on the tile, rim of the bidet, or edging of the sink. Do you think RG cleaned these after washing up?

I'm trying to visualize and organize mentally the scenario in which Guede was not in the bathroom. I understand from your point of view the bathroom DNA is not significant, i.e. Raffaele cleaned up there leaving no DNA and it's normal.

 

[Amber29]

Thanks for clarifying this. So we have a clean up in Meredith's room after all. Not by mopping but some other means. How do you think that clean up was done, in practical terms?


To the point of being undetectable by luminol, I understand.


I see. They cleaned after Guede walked. I understand the cleaning was done in a manner that preserved Guede's prints but removed other prints to the point of being undetectable by luminol, both in Meredith's room and in the corridor.




I'm trying to visualize and organize mentally the scenario in which Guede was not in the bathroom. I understand from your point of view the bathroom DNA is not significant, i.e. Raffaele cleaned up there leaving no DNA and it's normal.

I actually have said I feel a partial clean up of prints was successful. There isn't a full trail of prints revealed by luminol, so do you think they just suck at mopping all the time or someone hopped around with stuff that reacts to luminol on one foot?

It's easy to visualize that RG wasn't in the bathroom because you want to say RS wasn't in there because his DNA wasn't there, yet you aren't willing to say the same can be true of RG. What's good for one isn't good for the other. Noted.

 

[Katody]

Thank you yes exactly and I think they waited as long as they could before calling 112 only minutes before Filomena and others arrived.

I think that's a good observation, irrespectively of the view of their guilt. I think Raffaele was reluctant to involve himself in the always unpleasant business of calling the cops on a break-in when there was expectation that Filomena (who had the rental contract and was the one responsible for the property) will arrive any minute and take over.

 

[Katody]

I actually have said I feel a partial clean up of prints was successful.

I see, what confused me is that you wrote before:

I think there was a partial unsuccessful cleanup of prints in the corridor.

I understand there was some unsuccessful cleanup and some very successful (undetectable traces).

There isn't a full trail of prints revealed by luminol, so do you think they just suck at mopping all the time or someone hopped around with stuff that reacts to luminol on one foot?

I'm sure there are some scenarios from a innocent point of view but I don't want to impose anything. I want to arrive at a picture from your viewpoint, connect the evidentiary points, fill the gaps and visualize what happened.

It's easy to visualize that RG wasn't in the bathroom because you want to say RS wasn't in there because his DNA wasn't there, yet you aren't willing to say the same can be true of RG. What's good for one isn't good for the other. Noted.

I'm not sure does it mean the DNA and lack of DNA in the bathroom is significant or not? I understand you do think Raffaele cleaned up in the bathroom. That would mean no DNA of his in there is normal. You don't agree?

 

[TorisMom003]

Since two other cases were brought up I figured I might as well go ahead and comment on those as well.

Jodi Arias did not do any type of real cleanup. One look at Travis' bathroom proves this. There was a reason for putting Travis back in the shower, to clean off any of her DNA. Jodi was also the first person that came to the minds of Travis' room mates and friends when questioned about who might have killed him.

McNeil tried to clean up but failed when he stupidly had several people see his wife at different times of his removing clothing and staging her. McNeil had a clear cut motive for killing his wife. McNeil also insisted that his wife have the extensive surgery done. McNeil also had attempted once before, only days before, to kill his wife when his oldest daughter was still at the home.

AK and RS had no motive at all to kill Meredith. The only ones that could speak to any bad blood between AK and Meredith spoke of trivial things. There are no signs of any attempt to clean up the footprints attributed to AK in the hallway. There were no fingerprints of AK or RS in Meredith's room, the only fingerprints/handprints belonged to RG. If three people acted in concert, AK RS and RG, to kill Meredith and a clean up was done then why would two of the three leave evidence of the third? The third, when caught, would simply roll over on the other two. It would make much more sense for any clean up to have included ALL of the footprints, handprints, DNA, etc. This would make the discovery of the killer/s harder and leave the killer/s more time to leave the country.

moo

 

[SMK]

To me, more important than the clean up is the crime scene staging.

I always felt the calls of the morning of Nov 2 were suspect.
To me, normal behavior would be to call Raffaelle to come look around; look through the rooms quickly, discover the broken window, phone police.

Once police have come and written up their report, then the phone calls begin to Mom in Seattle, Filomena, Laura, Vanessa, etc.

Something was wrong with the order of the calls, and the timing and amount of them.

Now, the American detectives on another case confirm just this:

"The enlistment of an impartial witness to assist with “discovering” the crime is a classic feature of crime scene staging."(California vs Davis; 2007; Appendix IV; The Staged Crime Scene)

Couple this with the Postal Police First Officer looking in Filomena's room and uttering, "Staged." prior to any murder being discovered.

 

[TorisMom003]

So how does one stage a crime scene when the rock was clearly thrown from outside? If it was impossible for RG to throw that rock through the window then how did AK and/or RS do it? There are clear signs that the rock was thrown from the outside.

 

[Katody]

To me, more important than the clean up is the crime scene staging.

I always felt the calls of the morning of Nov 2 were suspect.
To me, normal behavior would be to call Raffaelle to come look around; look through the rooms quickly, discover the broken window, phone police.

Once police have come and written up their report, then the phone calls begin to Mom in Seattle, Filomena, Laura, Vanessa, etc.

Something was wrong with the order of the calls, and the timing and amount of them.

Now, the American detectives on another case confirm just this:

"The enlistment of an impartial witness to assist with “discovering” the crime is a classic feature of crime scene staging."(California vs Davis; 2007; Appendix IV; The Staged Crime Scene)

Couple this with the Postal Police First Officer looking in Filomena's room and uttering, "Staged." prior to any murder being discovered.

I think in many more crimes the people who discover are innocent. Also I thought the police looked at the "impossible" climb, not the room itself, to conclude there was no break-in.

 

[SMK]

I think in many more crimes the people who discover are innocent. Also I thought the police looked at the "impossible" climb, not the room itself, to conclude there was no break-in.

The Postal Police officer Batistelli said he thought Filomena's room looked staged prior to anyone's having gone outside to view the wall and prior to discovering a dead body in the flat. He said he thought the room seem staged when he first entered it. (glass on top of things; wrong drawers opened and and wrong ones left shut; clothes gone through which were of no importance.)

 

[Katody]

The Postal Police officer Batistelli said he thought Filomena's room looked staged prior to anyone's having gone outside to view the wall and prior to discovering a dead body in the flat. He said he thought the room seem staged when he first entered it. (glass on top of things; wrong drawers opened and and wrong ones left shut; clothes gone through which were of no importance.)

Hmmm... Where does he talk about wrong drawers opened and closed? I'm looking at the photos and it doesn't seem there are any opened. Hard to tell which one of the three would be the wrong one, too

I wonder if the clothes on the bed in the photo are staged.

 

[sherlockh]

<mod snip>

There's a big difference between a witness coming forward years later solving a cold case and a witness who shortly after the crime when shown photos of the accused said they weren't in the store on November 2 and the two or so times they were in the store, they were together and then suddenly at the urging of a journalist a year later completely changed his story.

He is anything but precise and consistent.

Cold case investigations often includes the rehearing of witnesses. Maybe they remember something else they didn't think important at first. That is completely normal. It is the same thing in this case except it was a media guy asking around. The shop owner never lied, or changed his story. It is basically a new story not affecting the first story. The first story was about both Sollecito and Knox buying bleach together which he didn't lie about. That story remained the same. The 2nd story was new and about Knox alone.

It is easy for us to say years later that he should have told it earlier. Maybe he is just not that smart as the average Websleuths poster. That he didn't think it was important is further confirmed by the fact that the journalist had to convince him to come forward. Either way, the important thing is that he did come forward, and his testimony was accepted because it was consistent and precise. No doubts whatsoever that he saw Knox at his store. Coming as well as going.

Knox was there early in the morning looking for something which by itself doesn't mean she was involved in the murder, but she is obviously lying again about what they were doing that morning and she is lying for a reason.

Massei report

Consequently, the fact of not telling Inspector Volturno about seeing Amanda on the morning of November 2 and the fact of having come forward only after having been convinced by Antioco Fois about the possible significance of this event, do not reduce the reliability of the witness, since these facts do not affect the genuineness of the memory.

 

[Amber29]

Since two other cases were brought up I figured I might as well go ahead and comment on those as well.

Jodi Arias did not do any type of real cleanup. One look at Travis' bathroom proves this. There was a reason for putting Travis back in the shower, to clean off any of her DNA. Jodi was also the first person that came to the minds of Travis' room mates and friends when questioned about who might have killed him.

McNeil tried to clean up but failed when he stupidly had several people see his wife at different times of his removing clothing and staging her. McNeil had a clear cut motive for killing his wife. McNeil also insisted that his wife have the extensive surgery done. McNeil also had attempted once before, only days before, to kill his wife when his oldest daughter was still at the home.

AK and RS had no motive at all to kill Meredith. The only ones that could speak to any bad blood between AK and Meredith spoke of trivial things. There are no signs of any attempt to clean up the footprints attributed to AK in the hallway. There were no fingerprints of AK or RS in Meredith's room, the only fingerprints/handprints belonged to RG. If three people acted in concert, AK RS and RG, to kill Meredith and a clean up was done then why would two of the three leave evidence of the third? The third, when caught, would simply roll over on the other two. It would make much more sense for any clean up to have included ALL of the footprints, handprints, DNA, etc. This would make the discovery of the killer/s harder and leave the killer/s more time to leave the country.

moo

The question was asked for examples of suspects making things more complicated. I gave a couple examples from my mind because in my opinion murderers don't always make decisions that others would and in hindsight may have done things differently. That was my only point.

Jodi having rinsed Travis's body, washing his sheets, taking the murder weapon, and deleting photos was in essence a form of "cleaning the scene" IMO

We were not discussing MMs motive only what he did in the course of his crime.

 

[Katody]

<modsnip>

But there are no drawers there. In fact I posted a photo of the only drawers in the room. :facepalm: