Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#11

[quesarita]

Ah ha! You have an astute perception, because although I was sensing some disgruntlement, I took it as secondary and less important than what I saw as a kind of obsession with her.

But omg -- I think you may be right. He may in fact harbor massive resentment against her: Both for her emasculating overshadowing of him, and for basically having utterly destroyed his life. And yes, he does hold that power in his hands. And now that you have pointed this out as a veiled threat, yes, it may be a very pointed one, and aimed at her and hers. Feel kind of dumb now for having blathered on about Knox and Sollecito, and not having actually focused on the pages at hand....:blushing:

I'm still pretty convinced of the Rudy/Lone Wolf theory, but when I read this I actually wondered . . . could Raffaele have been the instigator and Amanda the follower? I don't find any of the reasons given for Amanda's desire to harm Meredith believable. There's certainly no logical reason for Raffaele to want to harm her either, but it's as unlikely that he would go along with a crazy violent idea of Amanda's.

 

[SMK]

I'm still pretty convinced of the Rudy/Lone Wolf theory, but when I read this I actually wondered . . . could Raffaele have been the instigator and Amanda the follower? I don't find any of the reasons given for Amanda's desire to harm Meredith believable. There's certainly no logical reason for Raffaele to want to harm her either, but it's as unlikely that he would go along with a crazy violent idea of Amanda's.

Well, if he is giving her a veiled threat at the end - and now that you've pointed this out, I can see it and understand its origin and its implications - then there is some sort of consciousness of involvement there.

Not to over-run the Jungian angle, but I do believe in the psychology of projection, and sexual projection, especially in young, developing persons. I did read a neuro-linguistic analysis in which Amanda had written to the police, "Perhaps I made love to Raffaelle" and it was noted that making love to, instead of with, denotes some submissiveness. Perhaps she sought to become more feminine by projecting strength onto him, and he likewise, projected his weaker side onto her: Thus making him the master, and her the submitter, as it were. And we know Sollecito did have a proclivity for knives, and at least for fantasizing sexual violence.

Males obviously are more prone to enjoying sexual dominance as well.

It could be that RS and RG were the active ones, and Amanda, only psychologically involved, IF any such 3 on 1 took place. But I think you have pointed out a gem of an insight with the ending of Sollectio's book intro. :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[Katody]

- How would someone coming in through the window have shaken the wardrobe so much to cause those things to fall out? The wardrobe is on the other side of the window, meaning it was not in front of the window in any way. How would someone coming through the window have caused the wardrobe to shake?

There is more than one possible scenario.
1. The cable running around the corner of the wardrobe and under the window is one. If someone got caught in it ( and it does look so) it would shake the upper shelf with a twisting motion.
2. The wardrobe door is within reach and Guede could have grasped it while jumping in.
3. The inner shutter violently impacted the wardrobe door left open by Filomena when Guede threw the rock.

It seems we agree that there are no actual signs of rummaging the room apart from the disputed clothes from the shelf.

-We disagree on the way she died - I think someone wanted to make her suffer, not just kill her as a way of disposing of her. I am not saying Rudy could not have wanted that, I just think it takes an extra leap than just saying it was a "burglary gone wrong."

I think a murder with a knife is not unusual as far as murders go. We disagree, it's OK. I think it's important to stick to the facts, e.g. the character and number of wounds.

 

[Katody]

bbm

Do you think both Amanda and RS cleaned themselves off in the bathroom?

IIUC Amber thinks so. What do you think about Amber's reconstruction of the clean up that we're working on ?

 

[SMK]

@quesarita:

Just more grist for the mill:

Since your insight I do notice on p 15 in Honor Bound, that Sollecito speaks of his "days being numbered" with Amanda, due to her planning to visit an old boyfriend in China, and how intolerable this is to the Italian male psyche. Certainly that might bring long-repressed tendencies to a head. Just a thought.....

 

[Katody]

Well, in this scenario which I had pondered (and which most don't believe) Amanda and Raffaelle had given Rudy access to the cottage, telling him it was OK to rob it (Amanda was thinking of leaving anyway to live with Sollecito)

In Verona?

They stage a burglary but in my scenario there is no clean up as they did not participate,

Who's footprint is on the bathmat in your scenario?

I feel my scenario is easier to prosecute as there is no clean up, a simple simulation, and Guded is still the lone wolf, but one that was let loose by Amanda.

You get rid of most of the evidence and most witnesses in your scenario. It's ironic and sad that it makes it 'easier to prosecute'.

Also, a linguistic analyst has said that he believes Amanda is telling the truth when she says, "I did not steal; I did not rape; I did not kill"---yet he believes she shows signs of deceit when asked about prior knowledge. This fits my theory.

It's news. Did the analyst testify? In which trial?

 

[Katody]

The man and woman arguing in Italian that was heard by the witness if Raff yelling at Amanda not to touch anything, not to cover MK with the duvet......

On the street? And Amanda was arguing back in Italian?

 

[Katody]

And although I see your point, I believe she knew to her core that somehow she had intended some sexual harm and that Guede was doing her dirty work. She strikes me as a masculine person, who came to her femininity late, and does not play the female easily.....

How does it work?
Being a latebloomer implying wishing "sexual harm"?
Never heard of such phenomenon, to be honest.

 

[Katody]

It was said in a post earlier that RG picked the closest bathroom. I just wanted to add that IMO the obvious bathroom is the one at the end of the hall and just as close to Filomenas room. IMO going to the more hidden bathroom, shows a knowledge of the cottage for that choice. Considering just looking at the door, it looks like a laundry room.

I don't think dedicated laundry rooms are common in Europe. For me a washing machine and a water heater would indicate that a sink and toilet is somewhere near.

 

[quesarita]

@quesarita:

Just more grist for the mill:

Since your insight I do notice on p 15 in Honor Bound, that Sollecito speaks of his "days being numbered" with Amanda, due to her planning to visit an old boyfriend in China, and how intolerable this is to the Italian male psyche. Certainly that might bring long-repressed tendencies to a head. Just a thought.....

I hadn't read past the free kindle sample - now I will!

 

[aa9511]

Well, I would assume that Meredith was fully dead when they found her. No helping her. And that they felt both morally and legally culpable, liable. I see your point, but that sounds like Jodi Arias. As I said, Amanda does not act "feminine" and has no feminine wiles at her beck - she would dissociate more like a male would. MOO:moo:

Yes, I see your point. I guess where I am coming from is that in my opinion, she has made up many stories and said things to take the blame off of her in this case. MOO. Put the blame somewhere else. Another way to say it, not taking responsibility for her actions. Another way, playing the victim.

So, I see this as a pattern to her. MOO. Thus, I feel like if she was stuck in that scenario, the scenario which you laid out, she would not have gone through the trouble of cover-ing up, staging, etc.. When there was a much easier way - just play the victim. I certainly don't think she would have gone through all that trouble, putting herself at the scene and possibly putting herself at risk of being accused of the murder by way of DNA, etc.., when she could have made up a story for all of it. Especiallly when she was not the one who actually did it - there was already someone there to take the blame! She does not take the blame for other people, that is the opposite of her M.O. IMO. No, it would have been too easy for her to go the story-way.

It is very Jodi-Arias like. I'm sorry to make the comparison. But, IMO, Amanda is also very good at making up stories on-the-fly, to get out of something. JMO, but it is not like usual people who lie. They are very good at it. They can play the part.

It would have been very easy for her to make up a story of how Rudy took the keys from her, without her knowing.

Everything above, MOO.

Also, adding, does it seem very male-like to cry, cover your ears with your hands, and other such things? And yet we know she has done those things.

She claims to be more comfortable around males, she didn't say she was a male.

 

[aa9511]

SMK, I'd be very interested in your psych analysis of the opening of Raffaele's book. I'm trying to attach images here, not sure if it will work.

I am going to give my two cents on this, too. Of course he could not turn on Amanda, then Amanda would turn on him.

Also, why is he complaining about being second-fiddle to Amanda? I don't get it. I would think he would want that - he would want someone else to distract attention away from him. If you were on trial for murder, wouldn't you want to be Mr. Nobody? I know I would. I would want to appear as miniscule and non-threatening as possible.

I don't get this.

 

[aa9511]

OK, well first of all, he certainly does seem noble in his loyalty to her, if we can take him at his word. It is amazing that having known her for such a short time, (a matter of days) he would not betray her in order to save himself.

And it is clear that he knew himself to be secondary in this case, and overshadowed by her in all ways. (which was true enough, in both the media and in the court).

Reading between the lines, I wonder if he felt that his meeting her was in fact "a fatal attraction"? He seems passive and as though Knox may indeed have served as the catalyst - projection for him; she may have received his projection, becoming a kind of anima-figure or femme fatale in the truest sense of the word.

My biggest problem with all of this is the short time-span, the brevity of the time Knox knew Meredith (one month) and the shorter time she knew Sollecito ( 6 days) prior to the murder.

The psychological constellation of Knox, Sollecito, Guede, and Kercher ressonates with spirit and intuition: Especially for me, the kind of masculine aura exuded by Knox, and the feminine one by Sollecito. I can see some repressed sexual stuff coming into play in such a fusion. But the time seems far too short for anything to have truly taken root and germinated. Unless of course there was a kind of "time dilation" due to the exotic nature of Perugia, and the transitory feeling there?

It's odd, I have problems both with finding them fully guilty, AND with writing them off as a couple of rail-roaded kids. It's as if I am hovering in some middle ground here.... Of course if taken at his word, Sollecito does seem to indicate consciousness of their innocence.....Hope this critique was at least slightly helpful for you.

Wow SMK! Deep stuff going on there....

 

[aa9511]

Well, if he is giving her a veiled threat at the end - and now that you've pointed this out, I can see it and understand its origin and its implications - then there is some sort of consciousness of involvement there.

Not to over-run the Jungian angle, but I do believe in the psychology of projection, and sexual projection, especially in young, developing persons. I did read a neuro-linguistic analysis in which Amanda had written to the police, "Perhaps I made love to Raffaelle" and it was noted that making love to, instead of with, denotes some submissiveness. Perhaps she sought to become more feminine by projecting strength onto him, and he likewise, projected his weaker side onto her: Thus making him the master, and her the submitter, as it were. And we know Sollecito did have a proclivity for knives, and at least for fantasizing sexual violence.

Males obviously are more prone to enjoying sexual dominance as well.

It could be that RS and RG were the active ones, and Amanda, only psychologically involved, IF any such 3 on 1 took place. But I think you have pointed out a gem of an insight with the ending of Sollectio's book intro. :clap: :clap: :clap:

As far as the ending goes, I kind of see it as Raffaele's way of trying to make himself the "hero." Like, hey look how noble and kind I am, look at what I did for Amanda. Every guy, make that everybody, wants to look like a hero.

 

[quesarita]

I am going to give my two cents on this, too. Of course he could not turn on Amanda, then Amanda would turn on him.

Also, why is he complaining about being second-fiddle to Amanda? I don't get it. I would think he would want that - he would want someone else to distract attention away from him. If you were on trial for murder, wouldn't you want to be Mr. Nobody? I know I would. I would want to appear as miniscule and non-threatening as possible.

I don't get this.

Exactly! It's odd, as if he's saying he's NOT just the "little boyfriend" and he's tired of being thought of and talked about that way. MOO

 

[aa9511]

There is more than one possible scenario.
1. The cable running around the corner of the wardrobe and under the window is one. If someone got caught in it ( and it does look so) it would shake the upper shelf with a twisting motion.
2. The wardrobe door is within reach and Guede could have grasped it while jumping in.
3. The inner shutter violently impacted the wardrobe door left open by Filomena when Guede threw the rock.

It seems we agree that there are no actual signs of rummaging the room apart from the disputed clothes from the shelf.

I think a murder with a knife is not unusual as far as murders go. We disagree, it's OK. I think it's important to stick to the facts, e.g. the character and number of wounds.

No, I am stating for the record here that I do not agree with you that there are no actual signs of rummaging the room apart from the disputed clothes on the shelf. I never said that. I do think there was rummaging in the room, I have said that many many times in various posts, and I believe you know it. I have also asked you many times, when do you believe Rudy rummaged through Filomena's room? If I did not believe the room had been rummaged, why would I say that? Why would I think he only rummaged through clothes and not anything else.

For the record, if I ever think he, or I should say, someone, didn't rummage through the room, I will let you know. You will be the first person to know. Is that cool?

I have stated here that the room looks to me like it is very chaotic, and that I don't believe that Filomena left it like that. That means that either Rudy made it look that way, or Amanda and RS made it look that way.

Now, as far as the wardrobe goes, both the cable and Rudy grasping it, if it tilted to the point where clothes started falling off the shelves, then IMO it would have fallen all the way to the ground (the wardrobe). How would it tilt to the point of clothes falling off, and then come back up again? There was no rocking motion. It's not like there was a shaking like as in an earthquake. It would have been direct pressure on it in the forward direction, not shaking. The cable putting direct pressure on it forward-direction. Or Rudy putting direct pressure on it, forward-direction.

I don't think the inner shutter hitting it would have that much force to knock the whole wardrobe back and then forward again.

 

[whoanellie]

Quote:Originally Posted by SMK
Well, in this scenario which I had pondered (and which most don't believe) Amanda and Raffaelle had given Rudy access to the cottage, telling him it was OK to rob it (Amanda was thinking of leaving anyway to live with Sollecito)

In Verona?

Quote:
They stage a burglary but in my scenario there is no clean up as they did not participate,

Who's footprint is on the bathmat in your scenario?


Quote:
I feel my scenario is easier to prosecute as there is no clean up, a simple simulation, and Guded is still the lone wolf, but one that was let loose by Amanda.

You get rid of most of the evidence and most witnesses in your scenario. It's ironic and sad that it makes it 'easier to prosecute'.


Quote:
Also, a linguistic analyst has said that he believes Amanda is telling the truth when she says, "I did not steal; I did not rape; I did not kill"---yet he believes she shows signs of deceit when asked about prior knowledge. This fits my theory.

It's news. Did the analyst testify? In which trial?

There is no evidence of motive for Amanda to send Rudy to rob or assault or attack Meredith. As far as I know there is no evidence of any ill-will on Amanda's part towards Meredith. Amanda and Rudy barely knew each other. Correct? Did Raffaele and Rudy ever meet? There are no phone calls, texts, or emails between Amanda and Rudy. When did they formulate this plan? There is little or no evidence that Amanda ever had the opportunity to ask Rudy to rob/assault/attack Meredith. And if Amanda sent Rudy to rob from Meredith was he just supposed to leave Amanda's belongings behind?

SMK's theory does absolve Amanda of any role in the physical attack on Meredith but it actually paints Amanda in a much more devious and diabolical light than even the prosecutors were willing to do. It actually requires that she set out to harm Meredith hours before she was attacked. There is absolutely no evidence that Amanda was capable of or had any motive to do such a thing.

As you suggest, SMK's theory does throw out much the evidence that has been used to implicate Amanda and Raffaele. The knife, the bra clasp, the identification of the bath mat print as Raffaele's, much of the eyewitness testimony all are inconsistent with SMK's theory.

The linguistic analysis is pure poppycock. It certainly wouldn't be accepted in any American court. I doubt it would ever be allowed in the Italian courts.

 

[aa9511]

IIUC Amber thinks so. What do you think about Amber's reconstruction of the clean up that we're working on ?

I believe I said "clean themselves off." Do you think they cleaned themselves off in there?
(I'm talking about guilt scnenario), which you stated you were very keen to learn more about.

 

[aa9511]

@quesarita:

Just more grist for the mill:

Since your insight I do notice on p 15 in Honor Bound, that Sollecito speaks of his "days being numbered" with Amanda, due to her planning to visit an old boyfriend in China, and how intolerable this is to the Italian male psyche. Certainly that might bring long-repressed tendencies to a head. Just a thought.....

So do you think maybe he thought there was a chance of them getting back together if they ever got out?

 

[aa9511]

In Verona?

Who's footprint is on the bathmat in your scenario?

You get rid of most of the evidence and most witnesses in your scenario. It's ironic and sad that it makes it 'easier to prosecute'.

It's news. Did the analyst testify? In which trial?

bbm

What do you mean, he gets "rid of most of the evidence and most witnesses in your scenario?"

What evidence did he get rid of? What witnesses did he get rid of?