Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#11

[aa9511]

Only the relationship between Amanda and Meredith was perfectly good, without animosities. Amanda was in the middle of romance with Raffaele, spending every evening with him. They finished watching "Amelie" and suddenly decided to "get at Meredith". Yeah OK.

Well in SMK's theory, he thinks that they had some argument in when they saw each other that afternoon. So that would not be "get at Meredith" just for the fun of it, with no reason. I realize it might sound haste, but well aren't most, make that all, murders, burglaries, rapes, done with unsound reasons?

 

[aa9511]

I had noticed, and now see it is confirmed by Hendry, that the glass shards were almost neatly stacked on the sill.

I cannot imagine Guede doing this during a break-in, nor can I imagine Knox and Sollecito doing this during a simulation:

Also please someone explain how did Rudy place his hands or his foot or whatever he is claimed to have put there to get himself up, without whatsoever disturbing those shards?

 

[Katody]

Thank you for your kind words xx - I just hope my past experience isn't making it TOO believable to me that AK and RS were connected with Guede. Hard to tell how much I am projecting from my own history, and how much is intuition based on real cues and knowledge.... :waitasec:

You can approach it from probability. How probable is that this rather unusual history repeated itself? Now, given the mundane alternative of burglary gone rape, what corrections should we apply?

 

[quesarita]

Also please someone explain how did Rudy place his hands or his foot or whatever he is claimed to have put there to get himself up, without whatsoever disturbing those shards?

That photo is too close in, but in another photo of the windowsill, one side (left to right) had glass shards and the other side did not - about half the width of the sill.

 

[aa9511]

What repressed tendencies? What altercation? Where is the evidence for one or the other?

It's not possible Meredith wouldn't tell the British girls. I don't believe a repressed tendency would manifest so drastically without some signs before.:no:

bbm

How do we know whether there were signs or there were not signs? Do you think Amanda's mom will come out and say, "oh yeah, Amanda has this or that issue....."?? Or her Dad? Or anyone else close to her? Do you think they would put out negative information about her?

Friends who have said this or said that, IMO, it doesn't carry much weight. Because people can hide issues from friends, in fact they have most incentive to hide it from friends. Everyone wants friends.

 

[Amber29]

Sure. In my opinion the theory of clean up and staging becomes nonsensical when we actually try to flesh it out beyond bare assertions. Discussing the actual evidence from the guilt point of view is a minefield, I don't think it's anyone's fault here. If anything it's the prosecution's fault that they went forward with such garbage of a case.

Sticking to psychologizing is always a safe option. We can go forever about alleged psychopatology and repressed sexuality. I will analyze Mignini's and the Perugian "flying squad's" :seeya:

I disagree. It all makes sense to me or I wouldn't think they were guilty.

 

[quesarita]

Well in SMK's theory, he thinks that they had some argument in when they saw each other that afternoon. So that would not be "get at Meredith" just for the fun of it, with no reason. I realize it might sound haste, but well aren't most, make that all, murders, burglaries, rapes, done with unsound reasons?

FWIW, from groundreport.com site:
"She slept in and awoke to find Amanda and her boyfriend, Raffaele, making lunch, they invited her to join them but she declined and went to take a shower. Afterward they chatted while she put in a load of laundry, then she drew a fake tattoo on Amanda’s arm and, late in the afternoon, left for a dinner party at the apartment of Robin Butterworth and Amy Frost.

That was the last time Amanda and Raffaele saw Meredith alive."

First I've heard about the fake tattoo, but it sounds friendly enough between them.

 

[aa9511]

I guess I am going on intuition and psychological theory - which isn't exactly what would serve as evidence in a court of law. I'll admit that. I have a strong sense of Guede being linked with Amanda. Probably past history of my own being projected here.

And one other thing - consider their ages and the situations they were in (college town), the place they were in, etc..

At that age, it is not a big deal to meet someone and on the fly, go hang out with them. Especially in the environment of a college town.

We are coming from this, I believe all of us, as adults where we have more formal ways of doing things. We call ahead if we're going over, maybe days in advance. If someone invites you over for dinner party, it is usually given the day and time several days in advance to account for work and family schedules. We don't call past a certain time at night. Etc..

That is not the way college adults work. It is no big deal to run into somebody and the basketball court and then start talking and then spend the rest of the evening hanging out. You don't need advance notice. You don't need phone number, e-mail. It's very very casual atmosphere, as shown by even Amanda's own book.

 

[SMK]

You can approach it from probability. How probable is that this rather unusual history repeated itself? Now, given the mundane alternative of burglary gone rape, what corrections should we apply?

I would agree that it is more probable that in a city like Perugia, known for its drug problems (most thieving being done for the purpose of getting drug money), that a break-and-entry-turned rape/murder occurred.

It is true that it is unlikely that an unusual situation which occurred in the New York City area in the early 1980s would suddenly ressurrect itself in 21st century Perugia.

However, the elements of the psyche which make a shy, studious, bespeckled boy who has some problems and uses drug, become seduced a bit by the dark side - these are universal and belong to all cultures and all times. Rudy himself was not without his charms. Raffaelle himself in Honor Bound describes his protracted grief over his mother, his unrequited love of Amanda (his friends thought he was cuckold) - in the 20s, these things can indeed be a powder keg, just waiting for some drugs, alcholol, and a desire to "break the boundaries" to ignite it.

 

[Katody]

I disagree. It all makes sense to me or I wouldn't think they were guilty.

I still wonder how they technically managed to clean the spots where Raffaele made very bloody footprints going to the bathroom from the murder room without disturbing the half a dozen or so visible Guede's prints in that small area. What did they use to clean up in such a way? I know it makes sense to you and you figured it out but why don't you share it?

The other thing is the bathroom clean up. How did they manage to clean the very bloody fixtures in a way that made it very genuinely look like only small droplets fell here and there? And what about the drop of Amanda's blood? Did she really not realize she had been bleeding from her neck?

 

[aa9511]

Not puzzling. Guede had to clear the window frame from sharp pointed shards to reach in. If you watched the TV demonstration, it's clear that placing the pieces you're removing in front of you, on the wide and comfortable ledge is natural, quiet and fast way to do it.

Now let's see how the other side explains it

Ok, so he's hanging on from the windowsill with one arm, and with the other arm he's doing things like opening the shutter if it was close, and taking off glass and setting there? I don't believe he could hang from one arm like that and do all of that without falling off and cracking his head on the ground, in which case we would all know the conclusion and poor Meredith would still be here today.

Or did he get up by placing one leg on the ledge, in which case how would he place the shards there where his leg is supposed to be?

And how did he place both hands there to pull himself finally all the way up, with all the glass there, not apparently cutting himself (no Rudy blood there), and not disturbing the shards.

Why would he think it would make noise if they fell - you mean more noise that the CRASH of the window breaking?

The ground was soft, I don't think some shards falling would have made much if any noise other than thud, thud.

I must add that it's glass we're talking about here, not play-doh.

 

[Katody]

Also please someone explain how did Rudy place his hands or his foot or whatever he is claimed to have put there to get himself up, without whatsoever disturbing those shards?

Is there any explanation from the staging point of view?

 

[Katody]

Ok, so he's hanging on from the windowsill with one arm, and with the other arm he's doing things like opening the shutter if it was close, and taking off glass and setting there? I don't believe he could hang from one arm like that and do all of that without falling off and cracking his head on the ground, in which case we would all know the conclusion and poor Meredith would still be here today.

I can't believe you missed the TV demonstration that was posted here like dozen times:

http://youtu.be/8JL6nIkaYLs?t=1m23s

See how easy it is? Easy for everyone, not just experienced climber. The expert says so.


You do have some explanation from the staging point of view?

 

[SMK]

Is there any explanation from the staging point of view?

No, not really. As I said, I cannot envision Guede OR the 2 defendants arranging the glass.

I hope it was not the meddling Batistelli :tears:

 

[aa9511]

You're right. This is all speculation.

There is no evidence that they had an earlier altercation.

There is no real evidence (although there is a strong gestalt) of Amanda and Raffaelle having seething, repressed tendencies, a powder keg waiting for the spark.

It is likely that Meredith would have told the British girls that she had had such an altercation (unless it seemed subtle enough, and she felt the gathering was not the place to bring in such talk).

Follain's text said that the last phone call Stephanie Kercher got from Meredith, before she died, it was said, "Oh, I had a row with my American flat mate" but they then spoke of other things, and Stephanie never got a chance to ask what was the cause of the row.[/QUOTE]

bbm

Really? wow.

 

[aa9511]

SMK, sorry to trouble you, but do you have any quote of that passage from Follain's book? TIA.

 

[aa9511]

This is not something you've done with 50 questions and twisting words into the meaning you want them to be.

I don't find anything I've said to be illogical or I wouldn't say it. It's all IMO which I've made clear and I'm entitled to.

I think they are guilty while you think they are innocent. Of course we see the evidence differently, there is alot that I think is seen through rose colored glasses and disagree with. I would never refer to it as illogical because I respect people's opinions.

The whole feel of the thread has changed, IMO it makes some not even want to participate because there is an almost "attack" feel.

There's a reason I'm not a poster on the forums dedicated to this case, and that's the reason.

ITA, Amber.

 

[Katody]

And how did he place both hands there to pull himself finally all the way up, with all the glass there, not apparently cutting himself (no Rudy blood there), and not disturbing the shards.

There is like 10cm width of ledge free from glass. Just saying.

 

[aa9511]

Mignini was able to get a mendacious Daily Mail article on court record as evidence. You think if there was something, anything, it would stay hidden?

Not a single person in Seattle or in Perugia came out with anything suggesting 'personality disorders'.

If you read through my various posts on this, you would see that I said only the family probably knows about any issue. Because most of the time, people do not show their issues to classmates, to co-workers, to even close friends. And perhaps, there are some things which are so deeply hidden/veiled that people don't even realize it when they see it. Such as, lying to get out of things. There are people who are very good at doing that, such that the people they are doing it to, do not realize they're being lied to, or manipulated, if you will. A small example would be, I went to a bar even though I'm underage, because I was so vulnerable and the people I was with pressured me to go so much, I just didn't realize I was so weak. I'm sorry. They just kept telling me and telling me to go, even though I didn't want to, I really didn't. I just wanted to stay in and read my book. But they kept saying over and over, and would just not leave me alone. .........................................that would be the story told to Mom or Dad, when the reality is...................................................

you just wanted to get into a bar and drink.

So the fact that "not a single person" came out and said anything is no "evidence" to me.

The fact that her family sings her glowing praises is no "evidence" to me, seeing as they would not want negative things to come out about her. Seeing the bias inherent in being a family member.

 

[aa9511]

I think it's clear that many people have personality disorders (within my own family, serious ones) that go undiagnosed, and the person's other successes more or less balance them out in everyone's eyes.

ITA with this.