Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#11

[Katody]

Of course the fact that there was no gastric emptying means that the further we move the TOD from the pizza meal described by witnesses the less probable such TOD is.

It follows that the most probable TOD is right after Meredith's coming home at 9pm. I.e. the earliest TOD possible.

It is confirmed by Guede who had no reason to lie about it and further confirmed by the phone evidence. It is also fully consistent with the forensic evidence left by Guede.

That's when we consider the evidence globally, as a whole. If we look in isolation we can always undermine this or that as unusual coincidence or very rare case of slow stomach emptying.

 

[otto]

Even Crini has them leaving Sollecito's flat at 9:30, apparently after opening the Naruto. Meredith was dead before 10, probably long before.

MOO.

This seems to be written as a fact, yet there is no link.
I see the MOO now. Okay, thanks. So Crini did not say that Sollecito left his flat at 9:30 and there is nothing to suggest that Meredith was dead at 10 ... it's just a random opinion. Thanks.

 

[Katody]

This seems to be written as a fact, yet there is no link.
I see the MOO now. Okay, thanks. So Crini did not say that Sollecito left his flat at 9:30 and there is nothing to suggest that Meredith was dead at 10 ... it's just a random opinion. Thanks.

Crini spoke in court and the transcripts were generously made available by Amanda:

http://www.amandaknox.com/

 

[otto]

The argument I presented hinges on the lack of contents in the duodenum and the fact that Meredith ate a meal at a reasonably well defined time. The actual contents of the stomach are not relevant. There are references to journal articles in the link I provided.

Okay. Stomach contents are known to be completely unreliable in terms of determining time of death. I'm assuming that we agree with experts on this.

Please provide a medical research link where I can read that duodenum (intestine) contents is a reliable method for determining time of death.

I'm not particularly interested in using blogs as a source for medical journals or research related to criminal investigations. Surely there is a source other than a blog.

 

[SMK]

That's my understanding as well. Stomach contents are known to be most unreliable when determining time of death, but I have seen some discussion about it as though it is meaningful.

I recall from another case I read about, that experts said that determining time of death by stomach contents was an unreliable method, and lacking in precision (the deudonum would be an extension of this I would assume, because it is right outside the stomach, as the entrance into the intestine).

See this abstract below, especially the bolded (bbm):

Stomach contents and the time of death: Reexamination of a persistent question

The inspection of the contents of the stomach must be part of every postmortem examination because it may provide qualitative information concerning the nature of the last meal and the presence of abnormal constituents. Using it as a guide to the time of death, however, is theoretically unsound and presents many practical difficulties, although it may have limited applicability in some exceptional instances. Generally, using stomach contents as a guide to time of death involves an unacceptable degree of imprecision and is thus liable to mislead the investigator and the court.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2929541

 

[Katody]

Okay. Stomach contents are known to be completely unreliable in terms of determining time of death. I'm assuming that we agree with experts on this.

Could you provide some references for this assertion?

I've read a bit and it seems stomach contents are routinely used in forensic medicine for estimation of time of death.

 

[SMK]

Could you provide some references for this assertion?

I've read a bit and it seems stomach contents are routinely used in forensic medicine for estimation of time of death.

Stomach contents and the time of death: Reexamination of a persistent question

The inspection of the contents of the stomach must be part of every postmortem examination because it may provide qualitative information concerning the nature of the last meal and the presence of abnormal constituents. Using it as a guide to the time of death, however, is theoretically unsound and presents many practical difficulties, although it may have limited applicability in some exceptional instances. Generally, using stomach contents as a guide to time of death involves an unacceptable degree of imprecision and is thus liable to mislead the investigator and the court.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2929541

 

[otto]

I recall from another case I read about, that experts said that determining time of death by stomach contents was an unreliable method, and lacking in precision (the deudonum would be an extension of this I would assume, because it is right outside the stomach, as the entrance into the intestine).

See this abstract below, especially the bolded (bbm):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2929541

Exactly, so the duodenum contents would be a logical extension of that, and equally unreliable as a method for determining time of death.

Without new medical research (contradicting established medical reseach) stating that duodenum contents, but not stomach contents, is a reliable source for determining time of death, then it seems to me that it's kind of pointless to discuss what was in the duodenum and intestines.

 

[SMK]

Exactly, so the duodenum contents would be a logical extension of that, and equally unreliable as a method for determining time of death.

Without new medical research (contradicting established medical reseach) stating that duodenum contents, but not stomach contents, is a reliable source for determining time of death, then it seems to me that it's kind of pointless to discuss what was in the duodenum and intestines.

Especially because the deuodenum is so close to the stomach, being the entry part to the small intestine: see thumbnail - wrong size, sorry - thumbnail would not upload

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Okay. Stomach contents are known to be completely unreliable in terms of determining time of death. I'm assuming that we agree with experts on this.

An argument about the lack of contents in the duodenum is not the same thing as an argument about the contents of the stomach. Blanket assertions about what one can or cannot use to narrow down the TOD need to be examined with the specifics of this case in mind (even the abstract quoted above acknowledges this implicitly). If one does not know the time at which Meredith ate, then that would be a problem. But we know that, and we know that she was alive until shortly before 9 at least. We also know what she ate.

I provided citations to journal articles in the link. I suggest people read them and decide for themselves what is a reasonable vs. an unreasonable amount of time for food to stay in the stomach without beginning to empty into the duodenum.

 

[otto]

Especially because the deuodenum is so close to the stomach, being the entry part to the small intestine: see thumbnail - wrong size, sorry - thumbnail would not upload

I know what you mean. To suggest that the stomach contents are unreliable, but as soon as something passes from the stomach to the duodenum, it becomes reliable, makes no sense to me.

 

[otto]

An argument about the lack of contents in the duodenum is not the same thing as an argument about the contents of the stomach. Blanket assertions about what one can or cannot use to narrow down the TOD need to be examined with the specifics of this case in mind (even the abstract quoted above acknowledges this implicitly). If one does not know the time at which Meredith ate, then that would be a problem. But we know that, and we know that she was alive until shortly before 9 at least. We also know what she ate.

I provided citations to journal articles in the link. I suggest people read them and decide for themselves what is a reasonable vs. an unreasonable amount of time for food to stay in the stomach without beginning to empty into the duodenum.

I disagree that this case needs to be viewed in isolation. There is nothing unique about stomach and duodenum contents in this case that results in the contents suddenly being a reliable method for determining time of death.

Everyone knew when Nicole Simpson ate her last meal, but it made no difference in terms of determining time of death.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

deleted

 

[Katody]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2929541

I posted an abstract stating the exact opposite. Even this paper admits "it may have limited applicability in some exceptional instances".




From "Forensic Medicine: Clinical and Pathological Aspects (Jason Payne-James, Anthony Busuttil, William S. Smock)":

"For estimating the time since death the volume of stomach contents compared to the quantity and quality of the last meal and transportation distance into the small intestine must be known."

"Post mortem transport of gastric contents into the duodenum can be excluded (Madea at al 1986)."

and

"When 90% of the last meal is found in the stomach, the last food intake was probably within the hour prior to death, with 98% confidence limits not more than 3-4 hours."

bolding mine.

 

[Katody]

From Estimation of time since death by gastric contents: An overview

During medico-legal autopsy, if the doctor finds distinguishable full meal in the stomach, it would suggest that the victim died within 2 hours after the last meal and 4 hours if it is indistinguishable.

bbm.

 

[Katody]

An argument about the lack of contents in the duodenum is not the same thing as an argument about the contents of the stomach. Blanket assertions about what one can or cannot use to narrow down the TOD need to be examined with the specifics of this case in mind (even the abstract quoted above acknowledges this implicitly). If one does not know the time at which Meredith ate, then that would be a problem. But we know that, and we know that she was alive until shortly before 9 at least. We also know what she ate.

I provided citations to journal articles in the link. I suggest people read them and decide for themselves what is a reasonable vs. an unreasonable amount of time for food to stay in the stomach without beginning to empty into the duodenum.

Thank you for this voice of reason, Chris.

 

[SMK]

Well, from reading Halkides, I gather that when contents have emptied into the deoudenum, this state is significant and has a meaning for rate of digestion, which the stomach contents do not, on their own. I simply wish he had explained that, because I don't have the expertise to know this or grasp it immediately.

 

[Katody]

I disagree that this case needs to be viewed in isolation. There is nothing unique about stomach and duodenum contents in this case that results in the contents suddenly being a reliable method for determining time of death.

We cannot isolate the gastric contents evidence from the rest of the case and just dismiss it.

We need to consider it globally, within the body of evidence.

There is evidence for the time and contents of Meredith's last meal. The fact that the whole meal was still in the stomach is meaningful and useful for determination of ToD, as the literature provided confirms.

There are precisely defined intervals when the crime could and couldn't happen:
9pm - Meredith comes home, 10:13pm her phones are no longer in the cottage. 23:25 - the broken car is towed away from the front gate.

It makes the empty duodenum a very useful clue, especially given that thanks to Mignini's preventing of proper body temperature measurement the time of death can't be determined by other means any more precisely.

Taken not in isolation, but together with this whole body evidence it is clear that the attack happened immediately after Meredith came home at 9pm.

 

[otto]

Well, from reading Halkides, I gather that when contents have emptied into the deoudenum, this state is significant and has a meaning for rate of digestion, which the stomach contents do not, on their own. I simply wish he had explained that, because I don't have the expertise to know this or grasp it immediately.

Once someone is dead, the body deteriorates and the bowels begin to slough off the lining. Should this also be factored into any speculation about food in the duodenum?

 

[otto]

Well, from reading Halkides, I gather that when contents have emptied into the deoudenum, this state is significant and has a meaning for rate of digestion, which the stomach contents do not, on their own. I simply wish he had explained that, because I don't have the expertise to know this or grasp it immediately.

Did you come across any studies regarding duodenum contents and time of death?