Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#12

[SMK]

Funny thing that the climber near the end of the video demonstrates how it could be done if the bars were not there. Of course he cannot fully climb in, but to any unbiased observer it's clear that's not hard.

Yes, indeed, he does explain that you could get rid of the jagged pieces of glass, and that "bars, no bars, it's not a problem". I understand this, but 1. Would like to see it without bars. 2. Wonder if Guede in the darkness would have this same ease and confidence. Just trying to be thorough. Not maligning Ricardo.

 

[quesarita]

Yes, indeed, he does explain that you could get rid of the jagged pieces of glass, and that "bars, no bars, it's not a problem". I understand this, but 1. Would like to see it without bars. 2. Wonder if Guede in the darkness would have this same ease and confidence. Just trying to be thorough. Not maligning Ricardo.

Rudy had done it before, in the dark, at other places.

 

[SMK]

Rudy had done it before, in the dark, at other places.

Which ones did he do in the dark, and what were the windows like that he broke? I have trouble keeping track of what he did. I know he brandished a knife at a Mr. T. I know he broke into a Milan day school for children. The law offices, I was not sure.

btw, hate to sound like a literalist or a stickler for facts, but just for the sake of argument:


Supposing - just hypothetically, for the sake of argument , that one wanted to argue that Guede acted in concert with Knox and Sollecito within a prank on Meredith Kercher, and that prank went wrong, and escalated to murder. How do we know that his entry into the window might not be part of that, as a pseudo-simulation for effect, as it is apparently so very easy to do?

 

[otto]

Funny thing that the climber near the end of the video demonstrates how it could be done if the bars were not there. Of course he cannot fully climb in, but to any unbiased observer it's clear that's not hard.

We must be looking at completely different video. I have not seen any video of anyone climbing up to the window except the athlete that obviously used the bars to hoist himself up to the window.

 

[otto]

Rudy had done it before, in the dark, at other places.

Didn't Rudy climb up the window grate at a lawyer's office and climb onto the patio where he entered through French doors. That was also possible at the cottage, but Guede did not do that. In fact, all evidence suggests that the broken window was part of the staged break in.

 

[quesarita]

Which ones did he do in the dark, and what were the windows like that he broke? I have trouble keeping track of what he did. I know he brandished a knife at a Mr. T. I know he broke into a Milan day school for children. The law offices, I was not sure.

btw, hate to sound like a literalist or a stickler for facts, but just for the sake of argument:


Supposing - just hypothetically, for the sake of argument , that one wanted to argue that Guede acted in concert with Knox and Sollecito within a prank on Meredith Kercher, and that prank went wrong, and escalated to murder. How do we know that his entry into the window might not be part of that, as a pseudo-simulation for effect, as it is apparently so very easy to do?

"Sometime between the evening of October 13 and October 14, someone had broken into the law offices of Paolo Brocchi and Matteo Palazzoli, in Perugia. A window was smashed with a large stone, and a computer, a cell phone, USB keys, and a printer were missing." (themurderofmeredithkercher.com)

"On the morning of October 27, 2007, the principal of a nursery school in Milan found a stranger coming out of her office. Police were called and the person was identified as Rudy Guede. There were no signs of a break-in; money was missing, but just small change. The police made him open his backpack. Inside the backpack was a computer, a 40 cm kitchen knife (which had come from the nursery school kitchen), a bunch of keys, a small gold woman’s watch, and a small hammer like those found in buses to be used to break windows. Police told the principal that the computer had been stolen from a law office in Perugia.[8]" (themurderofmeredithkercher.com)

"The gold watch is particularly significant because of a possible link to an arson/burglary incident at the residence of one Madu Diaz four days earlier on October 23, 2007 in Perugia. In this incident the residence was extensively damaged by a fire that also killed Ms. Diaz’s cat. Rudy Guede lived next door to Ms. Diaz and was known to her. Although they had greeted each other on an almost daily basis prior to the fire, Guede was conspicuously absent following the fire. Ms. Diaz had had her suspicions about him and when, following the murder, his image was broadcast throughout Europe, she contacted police. Milanese police have never made any effort to determine if the gold watch they found in Guede’s backpack was the same one reported stolen by Madu Diaz. Once again his distinctive M.O. was very much observed at the crime scene: The entry there was through a window, the house was ransacked and he consumed food during the intrusion." (groundreport.com)

"A householder, Tramontano, testified that someone attempted to rob his home, [Date unspecified] and upon being discovered tried to leave. Finding the door locked, the intruder pulled out a jackknife and threatened him. " (themurderofmeredithkercher.com)

Not very clear about the time of day when he broke in - the first was probably the night of the 13th; somewhere I've seen a picture of the grated window he climbed up to break a 2nd floor window. It seems unlikely he'd do that in the daytime.

He was already in the nursery school when the woman arrived in the morning so presumably got in during the night, but they don't know how he got in.

 

[otto]

"Sometime between the evening of October 13 and October 14, someone had broken into the law offices of Paolo Brocchi and Matteo Palazzoli, in Perugia. A window was smashed with a large stone, and a computer, a cell phone, USB keys, and a printer were missing." (themurderofmeredithkercher.com)

"On the morning of October 27, 2007, the principal of a nursery school in Milan found a stranger coming out of her office. Police were called and the person was identified as Rudy Guede. There were no signs of a break-in; money was missing, but just small change. The police made him open his backpack. Inside the backpack was a computer, a 40 cm kitchen knife (which had come from the nursery school kitchen), a bunch of keys, a small gold woman’s watch, and a small hammer like those found in buses to be used to break windows. Police told the principal that the computer had been stolen from a law office in Perugia.[8]" (themurderofmeredithkercher.com)

"The gold watch is particularly significant because of a possible link to an arson/burglary incident at the residence of one Madu Diaz four days earlier on October 23, 2007 in Perugia. In this incident the residence was extensively damaged by a fire that also killed Ms. Diaz’s cat. Rudy Guede lived next door to Ms. Diaz and was known to her. Although they had greeted each other on an almost daily basis prior to the fire, Guede was conspicuously absent following the fire. Ms. Diaz had had her suspicions about him and when, following the murder, his image was broadcast throughout Europe, she contacted police. Milanese police have never made any effort to determine if the gold watch they found in Guede’s backpack was the same one reported stolen by Madu Diaz. Once again his distinctive M.O. was very much observed at the crime scene: The entry there was through a window, the house was ransacked and he consumed food during the intrusion." (groundreport.com)

"A householder, Tramontano, testified that someone attempted to rob his home, [Date unspecified] and upon being discovered tried to leave. Finding the door locked, the intruder pulled out a jackknife and threatened him. " (themurderofmeredithkercher.com)

Not very clear about the time of day when he broke in - the first was probably the night of the 13th; somewhere I've seen a picture of the grated window he climbed up to break a 2nd floor window. It seems unlikely he'd do that in the daytime.

He was already in the nursery school when the woman arrived in the morning so presumably got in during the night, but they don't know how he got in.

When Guede entered by a window, he chose the path of least resistance. That is not what happened at the cottage. At the cottage, the path of least resistance is the path taken by the person that broke into the cottage after the murder: the patio.

Additionally, broken glass was on top of the laptop and clothing on the floor of Filomina's bedroom, making it clear to all witnesses that the glass was broken after some contents of the room had been put on the floor.

Why would Guede put the laptop on the floor and then break the window?

I suspect that burglaries, real or staged, are often managed by breaking a window.

 

[SMK]

"Sometime between the evening of October 13 and October 14, someone had broken into the law offices of Paolo Brocchi and Matteo Palazzoli, in Perugia. A window was smashed with a large stone, and a computer, a cell phone, USB keys, and a printer were missing." (themurderofmeredithkercher.com)

"On the morning of October 27, 2007, the principal of a nursery school in Milan found a stranger coming out of her office. Police were called and the person was identified as Rudy Guede. There were no signs of a break-in; money was missing, but just small change. The police made him open his backpack. Inside the backpack was a computer, a 40 cm kitchen knife (which had come from the nursery school kitchen), a bunch of keys, a small gold woman’s watch, and a small hammer like those found in buses to be used to break windows. Police told the principal that the computer had been stolen from a law office in Perugia.[8]" (themurderofmeredithkercher.com)

"The gold watch is particularly significant because of a possible link to an arson/burglary incident at the residence of one Madu Diaz four days earlier on October 23, 2007 in Perugia. In this incident the residence was extensively damaged by a fire that also killed Ms. Diaz’s cat. Rudy Guede lived next door to Ms. Diaz and was known to her. Although they had greeted each other on an almost daily basis prior to the fire, Guede was conspicuously absent following the fire. Ms. Diaz had had her suspicions about him and when, following the murder, his image was broadcast throughout Europe, she contacted police. Milanese police have never made any effort to determine if the gold watch they found in Guede’s backpack was the same one reported stolen by Madu Diaz. Once again his distinctive M.O. was very much observed at the crime scene: The entry there was through a window, the house was ransacked and he consumed food during the intrusion." (groundreport.com)

"A householder, Tramontano, testified that someone attempted to rob his home, [Date unspecified] and upon being discovered tried to leave. Finding the door locked, the intruder pulled out a jackknife and threatened him. " (themurderofmeredithkercher.com)

Not very clear about the time of day when he broke in - the first was probably the night of the 13th; somewhere I've seen a picture of the grated window he climbed up to break a 2nd floor window. It seems unlikely he'd do that in the daytime.

He was already in the nursery school when the woman arrived in the morning so presumably got in during the night, but they don't know how he got in.

OK, well his MO mirrors the crime, and hence the power of the lone wolf narrative. I meant, perhaps he did so in the early morning hours, when it was getting light, but many people were still asleep. thanks for the above

 

[SMK]

When Guede entered by a window, he chose the path of least resistance. That is not what happened at the cottage. At the cottage, the path of least resistance is the path taken by the person that broke into the cottage after the murder: the patio.

Additionally, broken glass was on top of the laptop and clothing on the floor of Filomina's bedroom, making it clear to all witnesses that the glass was broken after some contents of the room had been put on the floor.

Why would Guede put the laptop on the floor and then break the window?

I suspect that burglaries, real or staged, are often managed by breaking a window.

BBM - thanks for that - these facts are often forgotten in the shuffle; namely, by me :blushing:

 

[otto]

OK, well his MO mirrors the crime, and hence the power of the lone wolf narrative. I meant, perhaps he did so in the early morning hours, when it was getting light, but many people were still asleep. thanks for the above

It's common that burglars break windows. If you were to imagine that someone would break into your home, wouldn't you suspect that a window would be the point of entry, and that something would be used to break that window? Security systems are added to doors and windows because it is so common that a window is broken during a break in. It seems strange to suggest that Guede had broken into a property by breaking a window, so it's impossible that Knox and Sollecito would stage a break by breaking a window.

 

[otto]

BBM - thanks for that - these facts are often forgotten in the shuffle; namely, by me :blushing:

It seems that all of this is discussed so often in small pieces that it's sometimes easy to forget the big picture.

 

[SMK]

It's common that burglars break windows. If you were to imagine that someone would break into your home, wouldn't you suspect that a window would be the point of entry, and that something would be used to break that window? Security systems are added to doors and windows because it is so common that a window is broken during a break in. It seems strange to suggest that Guede had broken into a property by breaking a window, so it's impossible that Knox and Sollecito would stage a break by breaking a window.

Yes, correct; and I had made the point on a prior thread, that home security professionals do say that windows are the main point of entry, often broken with a stone taken from the homeowner's own yard or patio garden.
*ETA: Also, although Americans use guns most, Europeans tend to use knives for obvious reasons (lack of availability)

What I meant about Guede's MO mirroring was, for those who believe in innocence strongly, they see Guede on a crime spree (term used by IIP) , breaking windows with rocks, brandishing a knife, etc., and it is "case closed". Confirmation bias must be at least somewhat at play.

 

[quesarita]

It's common that burglars break windows. If you were to imagine that someone would break into your home, wouldn't you suspect that a window would be the point of entry, and that something would be used to break that window? Security systems are added to doors and windows because it is so common that a window is broken during a break in. It seems strange to suggest that Guede had broken into a property by breaking a window, so it's impossible that Knox and Sollecito would stage a break by breaking a window.

Inpossible? No, just more likely that since Rudy was there, and the window was broken, and there were bits of stone dust from the wall outside along with the broken glass on top of items on the floor, and Rudy had a habit of breaking windows and climbing in second story windows, that that's exactly what happened.

 

[SMK]

Just another thing to keep in mind about the window climbing youtube:

It only takes care of half of the problem of the simulation.

Let's suppose that the youtube really did show Ricardo getting all the way in the window, without the bars.
OR -
let's suppose the video is unnecessary, because on the night of Nov 1 2007 a great big stepladder had been beneath the window, allowing Guede to easily climb up.

It sill leaves half the simulation unaccounted for:

Going by the argument of the postal police and the other law enforcement officials, and as Otto reminded us, glass was on top of objects that had been placed on the floor (and Amanda says in her UW prank, she did "move things around to make it seem like there had been a burglary".)

 

[quesarita]

Just another thing to keep in mind about the window climbing youtube:

It only takes care of half of the problem of the simulation.

Let's suppose that the youtube really did show Ricardo getting all the way in the window, without the bars.
OR -
let's suppose the video is unnecessary, because on the night of Nov 1 2007 a great big stepladder had been beneath the window, allowing Guede to easily climb up.

It sill leaves half the simulation unaccounted for:

Going by the argument of the postal police and the other law enforcement officials, and as Otto reminded us, glass was on top of objects that had been placed on the floor (and Amanda says in her UW prank, she did "move things around to make it seem like there had been a burglary".)

I know the glass found and the items presumed/assumed to have been already on the floor (computer) have been discussed many times. My perspective is:

1. It's extremely difficult to accurately reconstruct a series of actions from their aftermath, and much more so if you start from a theory of what you believe must have occurred (I think that's what you mean by confirmation bias).
2. I have seen for myself how an actual burglary can appear as a staged burglary.
3. I believe that the theory of "staged!" was first pronounced before they knew about the murder and was at least somewhat based on the fact that the computer and possibly other valuables weren't stolen. IMO when they realized that more had gone in the cottage, than the disorder in that one room, they should have backed up and investigated with more open minds. IMO

 

[SMK]

I know the glass found and the items presumed/assumed to have been already on the floor (computer) have been discussed many times. My perspective is:

1. It's extremely difficult to accurately reconstruct a series of actions from their aftermath, and much more so if you start from a theory of what you believe must have occurred (I think that's what you mean by confirmation bias).
2. I have seen for myself how an actual burglary can appear as a staged burglary.
3. I believe that the theory of "staged!" was first pronounced before they knew about the murder and was at least somewhat based on the fact that the computer and possibly other valuables weren't stolen. IMO when they realized that more had gone in the cottage, than the disorder in that one room, they should have backed up and investigated with more open minds. IMO

I understand. That is certainly one way of viewing the facts. But to me, that fact that first officer Batistelli did NOT know of a murder in the cottage makes his observation the more authentic. And he specifically mentioned glass on top of objects as his premise. I understand that things can look staged even though they are not. It seems that there are different ways to interpret the same events and the same evidence.

 

[otto]

Inpossible? No, just more likely that since Rudy was there, and the window was broken, and there were bits of stone dust from the wall outside along with the broken glass on top of items on the floor, and Rudy had a habit of breaking windows and climbing in second story windows, that that's exactly what happened.

There was a rock in the bedroom, so "stone dust" must have come from that rock. That doesn't tell us anything about how the window was broken.

What trajectory did the rock take from outside to under the desk?

 

[otto]

Just another thing to keep in mind about the window climbing youtube:

It only takes care of half of the problem of the simulation.

Let's suppose that the youtube really did show Ricardo getting all the way in the window, without the bars.
OR -
let's suppose the video is unnecessary, because on the night of Nov 1 2007 a great big stepladder had been beneath the window, allowing Guede to easily climb up.

It sill leaves half the simulation unaccounted for:

Going by the argument of the postal police and the other law enforcement officials, and as Otto reminded us, glass was on top of objects that had been placed on the floor (and Amanda says in her UW prank, she did "move things around to make it seem like there had been a burglary".)

Good point. Guede has broken into a couple of places taking the path of least resistance. Knox has staged burglaries. Police concluded that the scene was staged well before we knew anything about Knox's staged burglaries. How can anyone say that, knowing this, Guede must have broken the window?

 

[otto]

I know the glass found and the items presumed/assumed to have been already on the floor (computer) have been discussed many times. My perspective is:

1. It's extremely difficult to accurately reconstruct a series of actions from their aftermath, and much more so if you start from a theory of what you believe must have occurred (I think that's what you mean by confirmation bias).
2. I have seen for myself how an actual burglary can appear as a staged burglary.
3. I believe that the theory of "staged!" was first pronounced before they knew about the murder and was at least somewhat based on the fact that the computer and possibly other valuables weren't stolen. IMO when they realized that more had gone in the cottage, than the disorder in that one room, they should have backed up and investigated with more open minds. IMO

Police are trained to recognize a staged burglary ... also Italian police. Staging was recognized because the glass was on top of the ransacked items. Who puts the computer on the floor and then breaks the window? Not a real burglar.

Should we just ignore evidence of a staged break in and, if so, why?

 

[quesarita]

Good point. Guede has broken into a couple of places taking the path of least resistance. Knox has staged burglaries. Police concluded that the scene was staged well before we knew anything about Knox's staged burglaries. How can anyone say that, knowing this, Guede must have broken the window?

Er, Guede has broken into SEVERAL places; Amanda staged ONE burglary as an April Fool's joke - without the broken window etc.