Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#12

[Katody]

You are putting things in my mouth which I have never said, and you do the same with dr Lalli. He never said he says 2-3 hours because of the empty duodenum and that is the problem.

Lalli did the autopsy and was perfectly aware of the state of digestion.


Dr. Lalli specified that death was considered as occurring not more than two to three hours after eating

It's on page 47 of Lalli's testimony, sorry, but there is no way around it. He even wrote specifically to Mignini about it, to make it clear:

DOMANDA – Dottore, lei ricorda di avere scritto in data 13
Febbraio 2008, eventualmente glielo sottopongo, una nota
al Pubblico Ministero, in cui faceva una errata corrige?
RISPOSTA – Sì.
DOMANDA – Se può dire alla Corte di che cosa si tratta?
RISPOSTA – Sì, niente, era una errata corrige che era relativa
ad una indicazione di una... del tempo intercorso
dall’ultimo pasto che nell’ambito della relazione era,
indicavo come non meno di due/tre ore, invece
correttamente doveva essere vista come non... doveva
essere letta come non più di due/tre ore.
DOMANDA – Quindi lei in questa nota di cui...
RISPOSTA – In questa nota indicavo che dall’ultimo...
DOMANDA – ...chiedo io anche l’acquisizione, lei fa una
correzione e dice che come dato che lei vuole lasciare
agli atti che questa morte è intervenuta a distanza di
non più di due/tre ore dall’ultimo pasto.
RISPOSTA – Di due/tre ore dall'ultimo pasto, sì.

This is his estimation based on state of digestion. Other experts confirmed it as correct, the literature also agrees with it.

 

[sherlockh]

Lalli did the autopsy and was perfectly aware of the state of digestion.

Dr. Lalli specified that death was considered as occurring not more than two to three hours after eating

It's on page 47 of Lalli's testimony, sorry, but there is no way around it. He even wrote specifically to Mignini about it, to make it clear:

This is his estimation based on state of digestion. Other experts confirmed it as correct, the literature also agrees with it.

Yes same thing again. After the end of eating. Not from the start. Start of gastric emptying is calculated from the start of eating. Not from the end. So this is a different discussion.

 

[Katody]

Yes same thing again. After the end of eating. Not from the start. Start of gastric emptying is calculated from the start of eating. Not from the end. So this is a different discussion.

I think you're putting in words that are not there. It just says 2-3 hours from the last meal in the quote I gave.

 

[SMK]

It would seem, as Otto and I had discussed on the prior thread, that there are many variables and even different expert opinions with regard to stomach contents and the determination of time of death:

Normal Gastric Emptying Time:

Through radiological study the Mean (average) time for gastric emptying of the stomach (in normal individuals) is 75% at 90 minutes. Complete emptying will occur at 90 minutes in some, and between 90 and 120 minutes in the rest (+ or - t1/2 avg)

http://www.ask.com/answers/79496781/what-is-the-normal-gastric-emptying-time


pp 132-33 Massei

He paid particular attention to the digestive process, preceding his explanations with the following[129]critical remarks:

"the stomach contents represent a concrete problem...because there are so very many variables, above all at moments of stress...the analysis of the stomach contents implies technical knowledge, is physiologically quite difficult, and the results are always open to some doubt..." (page 15, hearing on June 20, 2009).

Professor Introna maintained that in order to apply these criteria, it was necessary to know the values of certain initial parameters: the time when the last meal began; whether the stomach had any pathological problems which might slow down the digestive processes; whether the stomach was quite full or had already begun to empty itself.

He recalled the data from various testimonies, from which, as he observed, it emerged that at around 18:00 18:30 pm, Meredith began to eat a homemade pizza with various toppings (cheese, mozzarella, eggplant and perhaps also onions) and then ate apple crumble with ice cream.

This meal ended at about 20:30 pm, so he considered that the mealtime lasted from 18:30 to 20:30 pm.

He recalled the reports by Dr. Lalli and the other experts stating that under macroscopic examination, the stomach contents revealed a piece of apple and floury fragments which might have been from the crumble or from the pizza. He also recalled that the emptying of the stomach under standard conditions starts around three and a half hours after the start of a meal, say between three and four hours after, and that the term "emptying" indicates the stomach emptying its contents (into the duodenum).

He asserted that "knowing that Meredith's meal started at 18:30 pm, knowing that there were about 500 cc of stomach contents, and knowing from the autopsy that there was no pathology of the stomach...which could slow down digestion, and above all", as reported by Dr. Lalli, knowing that the duodenum was still empty "because the stomach had not even begun to empty itself" (page 19 of the transcripts), the time of death must lie between 21:30 pm (three hours after 18:30) and 22:30 pm (four hours after 18:30), and that this timing agreed with the less rigid data provided by the analysis of the hypostasis, of the rigor mortis and of the body temperature, considering the uncertainty of the body weight which was guessed without weighing the body.

He also observed 130]that the beginning of the attack must have been a moment of tremendous stress for Kercher and may have arrested the digestive process. One could and should obtain a precise indication from this, in the sense that the stress to which the victim was subjected must have started between 21:30 pm and 22:30 pm

 

[otto]

i would suggest that a witch hunt to convict said "murderer" is on par with, and just as heinous as, being a murder victim.

yes, i agree. the more times it's shared, and the more people who read it, might learn the truth about this case.

someone earlier said the list was false and "made up". however, denying the facts don't make them go away.

What do you mean by a "witch hunt to convict a murderer" making the victim "on par with" the murderer? Is it your belief that the victim's family is directing the Italian justice system to do their jobs, and that this is a "heinous" act?

How does it work in other countries? If police pursue, arrest, hold trial, and convict a murderer, is it because the family is on a "witch hunt"?

 

[otto]

It looks like I was right. Prosecutors all over the world are accused of wrong doing by criminals, and others that object to prosecutors doing their job. There's nothing different in the case of Dr Mignini. Disgruntled persons of questionable character lash out at prosecutors all the time, with the difference here being that the lashing out against Dr Mignini was plastered all over the international news (perhaps by Douglas Preston) in an effort to undermine the credibility of the prosecutor.

"Turin court Wednesday definitively acquitted Perugia prosecutor Giuliano Mignini of three charges against him in connection to his investigations into the Monster of Florence case. The court shelved another three charges because the statute of limitations had expired. One abuse of office charge involving the wiretapping of a La Stampa journalist will be heard in court on March 18, but its statute of limitations appears to expire just days before, so it is unclear if the case will go forward. None of the matters relate directly to the Amanda Knox case, but they were often referenced by the prosecutor’s detractors."

http://thefreelancedesk.com/front_featured/amanda-knox-appeal-2/

 

[SMK]

It looks like I was right. Prosecutors all over the world are accused of wrong doing by criminals, and others that object to prosecutors doing their job. There's nothing different in the case of Dr Mignini. Disgruntled persons of questionable character lash out at prosecutors all the time, with the difference here being that the lashing out against Dr Mignini was plastered all over the international news (perhaps by Douglas Preston) in an effort to undermine the credibility of the prosecutor.

"Turin court Wednesday definitively acquitted Perugia prosecutor Giuliano Mignini of three charges against him in connection to his investigations into the Monster of Florence case. The court shelved another three charges because the statute of limitations had expired. One abuse of office charge involving the wiretapping of a La Stampa journalist will be heard in court on March 18, but its statute of limitations appears to expire just days before, so it is unclear if the case will go forward. None of the matters relate directly to the Amanda Knox case, but they were often referenced by the prosecutor’s detractors."

http://thefreelancedesk.com/front_featured/amanda-knox-appeal-2/

Ha, you beat me to it, Otto: I was just preparing to post the Jan 15 update on Prosecutor Mignini's acquittal from Vogt's site. Thanks for posting this.

 

[SMK]

Also, I noticed Vogt says Jan 20th will be Luca Maori's summation for the Sollectio defense. Thought this was finished? And she claims rebuttals will follow the same day - does this mean Jan 30 will be purely devoted to jury deliberations without delay, and then the verdict? I wonder why the 10 day gap; seems odd......

 

[otto]

New article from Frank.

http://wrongfulconvictionnews.com/a...-the-whole-world-is-with-them-and-the-judges/

He sure has a lot to say, but it appears to be a rather slanted interpretation of information that is known to all (not just those in Perugia). Does the man still have credibility after his North American travels and legal problems?

 

[Amber29]

Also, I noticed Vogt says Jan 20th will be Luca Maori's summation for the Sollectio defense. Thought this was finished? And she claims rebuttals will follow the same day - does this mean Jan 30 will be purely devoted to jury deliberations without delay, and then the verdict? I wonder why the 10 day gap; seems odd......

Yeh I had heard previously that Luca Maori will close the next court date before rebuttals. It has me wondering if it will stay on schedule as the closings all seem to be so long. Just don't know about a defense closing and all rebuttals in one day. The 10 day gap just goes along with the Italian schedule, their court dates are few and far between for sure.

 

[quesarita]

He sure has a lot to say, but it appears to be a rather slanted interpretation of information that is known to all (not just those in Perugia). Does the man still have credibility after his North American travels and legal problems?

Wow, I finally watched the whole video of the guy climbing up to the window from that link - he did it easily!

 

[SMK]

Yeh I had heard previously that Luca Maori will close the next court date before rebuttals. It has me wondering if it will stay on schedule as the closings all seem to be so long. Just don't know about a defense closing and all rebuttals in one day. The 10 day gap just goes along with the Italian schedule, their court dates are few and far between for sure.

Well, I just hope nothing happens to push the verdict into February or something. It's already been delayed twice .

 

[SMK]

Wow, I finally watched the whole video of the guy climbing up to the window from that link - he did it easily!

I saw it, too. But were the gratings on the windows back in 2007? Because he is certainly using them for his feet to step on and to grab and pull with his hands. What was on the windows the night of Nov 1, 2007?

 

[otto]

Wow, I finally watched the whole video of the guy climbing up to the window from that link - he did it easily!

Sure he did. The circumstances are completely different from the day of the murder, and there are some interesting edits in the footage. If you wait for an uninterrupted sequence where the professional athlete starts on the ground and climbs up to the window, without touching the newly installed security bars, you will wait forever, because there is no uninterrupted, or unedited, footage of that. It also appears that he is able to suspend his body on one arm, at a very unusual angle, I might add, and wave the other arms around the hinge. There's something super human about the footage.

 

[SMK]

Sure he did. The circumstances are completely different from the day of the murder, and there are some interesting edits in the footage. If you wait for an uninterrupted sequence where the professional athlete starts on the ground and climbs up to the window, without touching the newly installed security bars, you will wait forever, because there is no footage of that.

Yes, the voiceover says on the Youtube: " This is the actual window.....Bars have been fitted since, to prevent another breakin." It is so clear that the bars enable his feet and hands to pull him up. Especially on the top window. But they couldn't have been there on the night of the murder if Guede was a lone wolf - how could he enter the room with that grating of bars there?

 

[Amber29]

Sure he did. The circumstances are completely different from the day of the murder, and there are some interesting edits in the footage. If you wait for an uninterrupted sequence where the professional athlete starts on the ground and climbs up to the window, without touching the newly installed security bars, you will wait forever, because there is no footage of that.

Exactly they first show a quick easy climb up with him using the new installed bars. Then in a second attempt they cut away to the lawyers mid climb and back to him sitting on the ledge holding on to the bars. If he easily made the climb without grabbing the bars, why not show the unedited climb? Instead they choose to leave it to their viewers imagination.

 

[Amber29]

Yes, the voiceover says on the Youtube: " This is the actual window.....Bars have been fitted since, to prevent another breakin." It is so clear that the bars enable his feet and hands to pull him up. Especially on the top window. But they couldn't have been there on the night of the murder if Guede was a lone wolf - how could he enter the room with that grating of bars there?

The bars were on the lower window but not Filomenas on the night of the murder.

 

[SMK]

What was on the bottom and top windows in Nov 2007? Difficult to view in the pics available, but I'm sure without the fitted bars, there is no way to navigate your way up the wall.

 

[SMK]

The bars were on the lower window but not Filomenas on the night of the murder.

So conceivably, back then you could use hands and feet on the lower window (as Ricardo does in the youtube), but what about the top one?

 

[otto]

Exactly they first show a quick easy climb up with him using the new installed bars. Then in a second attempt they cut away to the lawyers mid climb and back to him sitting on the ledge holding on to the bars. If he easily made the climb without grabbing the bars, why not show the unedited climb? Instead they choose to leave it to their viewers imagination.

The reason that uninterrupted footage of the athlete climbing from the ground to the window ledge, without using the newly installed bars, is not available is because it's not possible, even for a professional climber, or climbing enthusiast, to climb to the window without using the security bars. If it were possible, there would be actual, unedited footage. It's another smoke screen intended to mislead people.