Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#12

[Tugela]

Sollecito is safe in the Dominican Republic. Knox has bigger problems because of her conviction, but I'm sure that Ecuador would accept someone fleeing the law. How big are the spiders in Ecuador?

I don't think the Supreme Court can repeatedly return the verdict for further consideration. That has already happened once. If the Judge, prosecutor and defense can't get it right second time around, the books should be closed with the SC confirming the lower court's decision. EHRC can take it up from there, but I don't think that Knox has a leg to stand on.

It won't be the US fighting the extradition. It will be Knox attempting to use US law in Italy to avoid extradition.

In the event of an extradition request the case would effectively be retried in front of a US judge and the evidence subjected to US standards. I do not believe it will past muster there, so I doubt an extradition request would be successful.

 

[Tugela]

Some glass turned left, some glass continued on the original trajectory of the rock, some glass was tapped out of the window using the small hammer (like the one found on buses) and laid on the exterior window ledge (explaining the glass on the window ledge), and none of the glass fell to the ground; not a single shard, while the drunk/stoned (prone to aggressiveness towards women when D/S) man scaled a shear stone wall in the rain to commit a burglary ... and then he forgot about the burglary and instead violently, brutally murdered Meredith Kercher as she prepared for her university examinations, causing 43 injuries with two knives from two different directions and little in terms of defensive wounds.

If a stone came from the outside and hit the window, the glass would fall inwards, not outwards. It would carry momentum from the stone and head in the same direction. Once he got the inner shutter open, he would have continued to break the rest of the glass, again directed inwards, and then brushed aside anything on the sill. That would be directed away from himself, so you would not really expect much or anything on the outside.

MK took a hard blow to the face. That would have left her disorientated or incapacitated. Under those circumstances there would be little to no defensive wounds. You are assuming that she was stabbed when she was able to resist, if it happened after she was incapacitated there would be no defensive wound. The scenario then would be a violent scuffle without a knife being used, with MK eventually being incapacitated by a blow, and then RG stabbing her in a rage when she was no longer able to resist. So, it is a simple and obvious scenario consistent with her injuries that would generate no defensive wounds.

You are assuming that he went there to commit a burglary. He may have gone there specifically for MK.

 

[redheadedgal]

Guede breaks in, breaking the window like in Pasquali's reconstruction and climbing in like in the TV reconstruction.
He pulls the shutters in, goes to the bathroom, Meredith comes home and heads for her room, he then sneaks on her and attacks.

Works for me.

Otto makes a lot of unsubstantiated and unreasonable assumptions that are not grounded in any evidence or common experience, IMO.

One thing I'd like to add,

There is evidence of single person attacking and murdering Meredith in her room. Evidence of Guede.

Taken as a whole the evidence shows a most usual crime of burglary gone murder.

It's hard to accept that some nebulous three way sex game, group rape prank assault, mortal group-fight over unflushed poo or whatever other scenario it is now happened somehow leaving no evidence but the evidence of simple burglary by one guy.

It would be easier to accept something so unusual if someone was able to very specifically and precisely point out what happened and which elements of evidence support it, explaining the reasoning and scenario step by step. Nothing like this happened so far, especially not in the courtroom. The prosecution's explanation is everchanging and foggy.

Thanks for bringing back the common sense.

I'm ready not to dismiss it when finally someone puts it together into anything solid. Didn't happen in 7 years, I don't think it will happen ever.

Not just an idea of prank go wrong (or whatever) but one leaving evidence of single buglar/rapist.
Now that's extra unusual, and cries for some explanation.

This really makes you wonder? I wonder where are all the traces of other people in this room?

How come Guede leaves dozen footprints in the room, handprint and numerous DNA traces and Amanda who supposedly did the stabbing leaves nothing. A miracle.

It was when Amanda used her microscope to remove her DNA traces leaving only Guede's around.

Actually I think your description is more than a bit ridiculous. When he was found with the glass breaking hammer it was in a back pack that was large enough to also contain a large kitchen knife, 2 phones and a laptop computer among other small items. So, he was known to carry such a pack when breaking and entering.
Re: the 2 knives. My understanding is that the idea of 2 knives comes only from trying to fit Raffaele's large kitchen knife into the story, because some of the wounds could ONLY have been caused by a smaller knife; and in reality the smaller knife could have caused ALL the wounds.

Seeing how Guede left the country and the other two did not, then my answer would have to be yes. After all, those shoes were never found correct?!? The box for the shoes was found at Guede's place, yes? And that was how the police was able to match all of those shoe prints to him? They knew what kind of shoes they were and looked to see what the soles of those shoes would look like?

Are there any statistics on pranks that end in rape and cutting throat and leave evidence of a single burglar?

That would be a no. And that is one of the reasons why the idea of a prank that went bad makes no sense at all. I always think of K.I.S.S. If you have to do mind tricks comparable with mental gymnastics then one needs to stop and think as to why they must make it so difficult, especially when there is a much more simple answer.

MOO

If we are to believe that no CCTV cameras captured them that night moving the car, and that he cleaned the car so perfectly that the tests returned nothing at all. They did a lot of tests on his car interior.

I guess Raffaele used the same electron microscope that helped Amanda remove completely her DNA from the room.

Guede was an unknown at the time. No one was looking at him for the murder. Why wouldn't he take those bloody items with him and dispose of them in another country? Since there was so much "cleaning and staging of the crime scene" by AK and RS, when exactly did they have time to dispose of anything? And if they did dispose of things why did police not find them when they searched nearby areas for bloody items? Also AK and RS had the police on their case immediately after Meredith was found. No matter what the police want to claim, AK and RS were suspects from the begining because of their "behavior" that the police felt was not right.

MOO

Just to counter the very misleading 43 injuries claim:

from Massei:


The mythical "43 injuries" were mostly very slight bruises that were not obviously connected to the crime. There was no sign of restraining, which would leave significant and noticeable bruising.
There were injuries to the face, neck and head, however:

Great. Let's look at the evidence in the murder room. No trace of Amanda. Footprints, fingerprints, DNA of Guede's all over the room, the floor, the victim's body and clothing.

Saying unusual things happen is no substitute for providing the motive the scenario and the actual evidence. Tell us what happened, piece together the elements into a scenario - that's what the supreme court asked for. Crini delivered... a poo fight.

Well to be fair, the traces of Guede on that bra clasp that had been left for 46 days to wander all over the place shouldn't be counted against Guede either. After all, there was a true chance of contamination regarding that bra clasp. However, the other things against Guede do count. For instance his DNA on Meredith. No chance of contamination there. The bloody handprint on the pillow, again no chance of contamination. The bloody shoe prints that match with the soles of the shoes that Guede got rid of on the pillow, again no chance of contamination there. In fact, anything that was collected the day/evening that Meredith was found that points to Guede is not going to run the chance of being contaminated as Guede had not been in the cottage (upstairs) before and he had no reason for anything of his (DNA, footprints, fingerprints) to be in the cottage.

The footprints in the hallway that are similar to AK's size, very questionable. Especially when it is found out (after originally being claimed that they DO) that those footprints are not in Meredith's blood. The footprints of the other women that lived in the cottage were not checked to see if those footprints could have been theirs.

MOO

There are no traces of Amanda at all in that room. You can't explain it. The prosecution couldn't explain that miracle for 6 years.

There are a dozen of Guede's footprints on the floor and on the pillowcase in that room. There is his palmprint, his DNA on the purse, clothes, in Meredith's body and on her underwear.

If a stone came from the outside and hit the window, the glass would fall inwards, not outwards. It would carry momentum from the stone and head in the same direction. Once he got the inner shutter open, he would have continued to break the rest of the glass, again directed inwards, and then brushed aside anything on the sill. That would be directed away from himself, so you would not really expect much or anything on the outside.

MK took a hard blow to the face. That would have left her disorientated or incapacitated. Under those circumstances there would be little to no defensive wounds. You are assuming that she was stabbed when she was able to resist, if it happened after she was incapacitated there would be no defensive wound. The scenario then would be a violent scuffle without a knife being used, with MK eventually being incapacitated by a blow, and then RG stabbing her in a rage when she was no longer able to resist. So, it is a simple and obvious scenario consistent with her injuries that would generate no defensive wounds.

You are assuming that he went there to commit a burglary. He may have gone there specifically for MK.

good posts -- thanks !

 

[aa9511]

Out of all of the possible scenarios, to me, accident sounds most believable. In the accident scenario, only a fun prank was planned, there was no malice planned. There was no tension between Meredith and Amanda. There was no planning by Rudy to rape Amanda or Meredith or anyone. There was no planning to stab someone. There was no planning to kill someone.

It makes the most sense. They did not mean for it to happen.

Meredith was accidentally very badly wounded b/c of the prank. She could identify all and would get all in trouble. They panicked, the wound was very bad and there was blood starting to get everywhere. They then made a series of terrible decisions, because they panicked and maybe because they were young-ish. Raffaele worried about what his family would say, how would he explain this, what would happen to him? Amanda also worried about how she would explain this to her family, also this meant her whole dream of study abroad and all hopes and excitement would be ruined, her fresh start with Raffaele would be destroyed. Rudy worried about being put in jail.

So they decided they couldn't call for help and have to explain this. But what were they going to do? Meredith was already dying in front of them. They decide that they have to make it look like someone else killed her....like someone random came in and raped and killed her. They had to stab her more to make it look like it was a murder. They had to stage her body to make it look like someone raped her and murdered her.

They had to stage the window so it seemed like someone random came in from outside.

This scenario, IMO, explains a lot of things. They were not evil. An accident happened, and they panicked and made terrible decisions.

And, I might add, it would also account for Amanda and Raffaele's actions afterwards, in the years after the murder. Yes, Amanda is hurt by how the media portrayed her - she did not murder Meredith out of some kind of hate or some kind of evil-ness. How could people say things like that about her? She never meant to hurt Meredith. Meredith was a good friend, they were very good friends. All of that would still be somewhat true from the above scenario. It would explain how both she and Raffaele can go about writing books and doing all these sorts of things. Because they are not evil killers, and they are not who the media is making them to be. And perhaps others can learn from their "story." I can see how they could end up seeing themselves as the "victims," I can see it very clearly. How the above scenario and its aftermath could end up making them see themselves as the victims, just as much victim as Meredith. It makes some sense from that perspective.

It makes a lot more sense than them killing Meredith as a result of things getting "out of hand" or some kind of argument gone bad. The actions of Amanda and Raffaele line up much more with the accident scenario, then with this scenario. In that case, they would just be really really cruel and how could they ever see themseves as victims? And do all of the press and the books, etc.? There would have to be something very wrong with the both of them.

IMO, accident scenario fits in very much with both the innocent arguments and the guilty arguments.

 

[Katody]

Is this the moment where I give a list of the evidence and we start another zillion pages of discussions about the exact same things?

No, I'm not interested in all the non evidence that is not in the room or is not physical but intuition. We've been there before.

I'm only interested in some explanation why there is no trace at all of Amanda in the murder room if she was supposed to do a murderous prank/fight over the poo in there cutting throats.

Guede who was there for sure left a lot of footprints, palmprint, DNA on items, in Meredith's body, on her clothes, on her bra.

 

[Katody]

The website www.themurderofmeredithkercher.com is on par with a North Korean propaganda site.

Under Volturno, Oreste witness summary they have him searching Raffaele's apartment on the 8th when it was the 6th and says he went to Bari to investigate a tip off Raffaele had attacked a girl with scissors. It further states " Sollecito's middle school records were available and they showed a record of discipline problems."

When the truth is someone approached him saying there was a scissors incident at the school involving an unnamed girl and Raffaele's name wasn't mentioned. It was just an incident at school involving unnamed people.

And the record of discipline problems amounted to this:

Maori: For example “Sollecito plays with his pen despite having been told off about it?”
Maori: Another note “Sollecito throws paper ball at class mates”?

Astonishing. I wonder who is behind this organized PR campaign of lies against the defendants.

 

[redheadedgal]

january 21 (tuesday) @ 9pm EST:​

injustice anywhere presents:​

the amanda knox case: analyzing the dna evidence​

websleuths member (professor) chris halkides is one of the participants !! :great:​

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/injust...lyzing-the-dna-evidence#.Utd6gV4dees.facebook​

should be a great show... can't wait to dissect it here lol :gathering:​

 

[sherlockh]

No, I'm not interested in all the non evidence that is not in the room or is not physical but intuition. We've been there before.

I'm only interested in some explanation why there is no trace at all of Amanda in the murder room if she was supposed to do a murderous prank/fight over the poo in there cutting throats.

Guede who was there for sure left a lot of footprints, palmprint, DNA on items, in Meredith's body, on her clothes, on her bra.

We also discussed that not too long ago. Knox had a knife in her hand so where else was she supposed to have left any DNA besides on the murder knife that was found at her boyfriend's apartment, and in the bathroom from washing off the blood, and even on her bare feet mixed with blood traces of Meredith in the hallway as well as in Filomena's room where it just so happened that a burglary was staged?

 

[Katody]

We also discussed that not too long ago. Knox had a knife in her hand so where else was she supposed to have left any DNA besides on the murder knife that was found at her boyfriend's apartment, and in the bathroom from washing off the blood, and even on her bare feet mixed with blood traces of Meredith in the hallway as well as in Filomena's room where it just so happened that a burglary was staged?

I thought she was supposed to take part in the fight and overpowering.

I guess she teleported herself into the room, stabbed Meredith and teleported herself away, so did Raffaele. That's why there is not a footprint and no fingerprint of theirs inside. I guess you agree Guede is the only one who struggled with Meredith and overpowered her, given that only his evidence is there.

Leaving DNA in boyfriend's flat and in your own bathroom doesn't count as murder evidence.
I guess they were just miraculously lucky to not leave a single footprint, fingerprint or speck of DNA in that room.

 

[MichaelSmith]

We also discussed that not too long ago. Knox had a knife in her hand so where else was she supposed to have left any DNA besides on the murder knife that was found at her boyfriend's apartment, and in the bathroom from washing off the blood, and even on her bare feet mixed with blood traces of Meredith in the hallway as well as in Filomena's room where it just so happened that a burglary was staged?

You mean the traces that were TMB negative that Steffi said gives certainty it's not blood and were LCN and one test only?

The knife sample that was again TMB negative, human species negative, doesn't fit the wounds and they kept despite all the "cleaning & staging"?

PS Why didn't they eat Meredith if they were willing to keep the murder weapon and cook with it?

PPS Why didn't they kill Joanna Popovic?

PPPS What was Raffaele doing when the complete stranger Guede he had just met was raping her?

 

[Katody]

You mean the bare traces that were TMB negative which Steffi said gives certainly it's not blood and were LCN and one test only?

The knife sample that was again TMB negative, human species negative, doesn't fit the wounds and they kept despite all the "cleaning & staging"?

PS Why didn't they eat Meredith if they were willing to keep the murder weapon and cook with it?

Exactly, isn't it funny that all the so called evidence against them is so lousy and contrived? There's not a single piece that doesn't have some serious problems around it like the contradictory TMB or serious stink like Stafanoni lying about quantification, or destroying the specimen by 'improper' storage.

How unlucky Guede was to leave so much evidence that is not contested? Even the palmprint alone is something that cannot be undermined and suffice for convicting him.

They want us to believe Guede overpowered and immobilized Meredith all on his own, then Amanda went inside, stabbed her without touching anything and teleported herself away again without a single speck of DNA or bloody print left behind.
Or maybe she used her portable scanning microscope to recognize every piece of her DNA and remove it. :facepalm:

 

[Katody]

I have yet to see a reasonable explanation why the supposedly bloody prints that tested negative for blood and negative for Meredith's DNA in the hallway don't form any trail.

Where is the trail of prints going to Filomena's room? Where are the prints in the murder room? Cleaned up? How did they clean up their invisible prints leaving Guede's trail intact?

Did they clean up Meredith's DNA from those prints with their microscope? How come Stafanoni was able to get a result from 5 cells on the knife and somehow couldn't find anything in a "bloody" footprint?

 

[SMK]

Out of all of the possible scenarios, to me, accident sounds most believable. In the accident scenario, only a fun prank was planned, there was no malice planned. There was no tension between Meredith and Amanda. There was no planning by Rudy to rape Amanda or Meredith or anyone. There was no planning to stab someone. There was no planning to kill someone.

It makes the most sense. They did not mean for it to happen.

Meredith was accidentally very badly wounded b/c of the prank. She could identify all and would get all in trouble. They panicked, the wound was very bad and there was blood starting to get everywhere. They then made a series of terrible decisions, because they panicked and maybe because they were young-ish. Raffaele worried about what his family would say, how would he explain this, what would happen to him? Amanda also worried about how she would explain this to her family, also this meant her whole dream of study abroad and all hopes and excitement would be ruined, her fresh start with Raffaele would be destroyed. Rudy worried about being put in jail.

So they decided they couldn't call for help and have to explain this. But what were they going to do? Meredith was already dying in front of them. They decide that they have to make it look like someone else killed her....like someone random came in and raped and killed her. They had to stab her more to make it look like it was a murder. They had to stage her body to make it look like someone raped her and murdered her.

They had to stage the window so it seemed like someone random came in from outside.

This scenario, IMO, explains a lot of things. They were not evil. An accident happened, and they panicked and made terrible decisions.

And, I might add, it would also account for Amanda and Raffaele's actions afterwards, in the years after the murder. Yes, Amanda is hurt by how the media portrayed her - she did not murder Meredith out of some kind of hate or some kind of evil-ness. How could people say things like that about her? She never meant to hurt Meredith. Meredith was a good friend, they were very good friends. All of that would still be somewhat true from the above scenario. It would explain how both she and Raffaele can go about writing books and doing all these sorts of things. Because they are not evil killers, and they are not who the media is making them to be. And perhaps others can learn from their "story." I can see how they could end up seeing themselves as the "victims," I can see it very clearly. How the above scenario and its aftermath could end up making them see themselves as the victims, just as much victim as Meredith. It makes some sense from that perspective.

It makes a lot more sense than them killing Meredith as a result of things getting "out of hand" or some kind of argument gone bad. The actions of Amanda and Raffaele line up much more with the accident scenario, then with this scenario. In that case, they would just be really really cruel and how could they ever see themseves as victims? And do all of the press and the books, etc.? There would have to be something very wrong with the both of them.

IMO, accident scenario fits in very much with both the innocent arguments and the guilty arguments.

I agree this makes far more sense than that Knox and Sollecito would have ever planned a killing. Why would they destroy their college, their freedom, their youth by deciding to commit murder? Your scenario and the prank gone wrong explains a great deal on all levels. Thumbs up

 

[Amber29]

In the event of an extradition request the case would effectively be retried in front of a US judge and the evidence subjected to US standards. I do not believe it will past muster there, so I doubt an extradition request would be successful.

Retried in the US, like our system is so superior?

How about the case of Larry Swearingen. He's on death row in Texas. He did some suspicious things around the time of the murder, had previously slept with the victim, and was arrested, held on a speeding warrent while they found evidence to charge him. The body was found 25 days after he was arrested in the woods and was described by the finder as looking like a "mannequin". The original ME testified she was left there the day she disappeared although 9 other experts have said she couldn't have been there longer then 10 days and as short as just a few days. They found blood under her fingernails belonging to an unidentified male, the prosecutor claimed contamination. Panty hoses were around her neck, the other half of the panty hoses were found at Swearingens house by an off duty officer with no search warrent after multiple searches had already been done at his house and those weren't recovered. So is this the same system that wouldn't allow the evidence against AK? The US is far from perfect, all the questions around this case I've exampled and he's on death row!

 

[Katody]

I agree this makes far more sense than that Knox and Sollecito would have ever planned a killing. Why would they destroy their college, their freedom, their youth by deciding to commit murder? Your scenario and the prank gone wrong explains a great deal on all levels. Thumbs up

It explains all apart from the actual forensic evidence

 

[SMK]

It explains all apart from the actual forensic evidence

Yes, it does seem if the bathmat gets thrown out, and the luminol traces are explained as being from a prior time, the knife is viewed as dubious, or thrown out altogether (Bongiorno summation) and the clean up and simulation are viewed as never having occurred, --

then you are left with scraps of circumstantial evidence.

I wonder how the judges will view all on the 30th?

I will be the first to admit that the upholding of the convictions is far from certain.

ETA: Amanda does say on her recent exclusive Italian state appearance that she expects to be acquitted. (as per Andrea Vogt site)

http://thefreelancedesk.com/front_featured/amanda-knox-appeal-2/

 

[aa9511]

No, I'm not interested in all the non evidence that is not in the room or is not physical but intuition. We've been there before.

I'm only interested in some explanation why there is no trace at all of Amanda in the murder room if she was supposed to do a murderous prank/fight over the poo in there cutting throats.

Guede who was there for sure left a lot of footprints, palmprint, DNA on items, in Meredith's body, on her clothes, on her bra.

bbm

Well, when you put it thatway.....

It was not set out to be a "murderous prank." Or "fight over the poo." It was meant to be a FUN prank, no malice intended, just fun. IMO.

Palmprint....but Katody I distinctly recall you correcting me when I attributed palmprint to him one time? How is it now that you are wiritng the exact same thing you corrected me on? Can you please explain this to me?

Perhaps there is "more" evidence of Guede on her b/c the initial prank involved him grabbing hold of her first. Then Amanda and Raffaele come out and scare her with the knives and whatever else they did. She gets accidentally stuck with the knife. Rudy drops her. They panic. They decide they have to make it look like someone murdered her. In this case, Rudy had the most physical contact with her, holding her.

Amanda's footprints are elsewhree in the house, too, as well as one of Raffaele's. And also Raffaele's DNA is on the bra strap.

 

[quesarita]

I agree this makes far more sense than that Knox and Sollecito would have ever planned a killing. Why would they destroy their college, their freedom, their youth by deciding to commit murder? Your scenario and the prank gone wrong explains a great deal on all levels. Thumbs up

So to make sure it looked like a burglary gone wrong and not a prank gone wrong, they all thought it was a good idea for Rudy to rape Meredith?

 

[aa9511]

So to make sure it looked like a burglary gone wrong and not a prank gone wrong, they all thought it was a good idea for Rudy to rape Meredith?

They did stage some aspects of the sexual assault, we don't know exactly what really happened that night.

Some staging of things was involved. This means that evidence was distorted. Thus, by necessity from those two acts, we do not have a clear picture of the what is real evidence and what is fake evidence.

So therefore how can we base our conclusions about this case from strictly taking the "evidence" we see, since we already know evidence has been changed by the perpetrators?

For example, the broken window - if investigators had not looked "beyond" the outward appeance of the broken window, and just taken it immediately as fact, then they would not have known the window was staged.

It is a very, very strange case indeed.

 

[SMK]

So to make sure it looked like a burglary gone wrong and not a prank gone wrong, they all thought it was a good idea for Rudy to rape Meredith?

It is a speculative idea, based on some questions of circumstantial evidence.