Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#12

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  • #781
but it's completely acceptable that the SCC --a court that ought to be neutral-- stated in it's decision that the two should be found guilty?


http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/PDF-Files.html

Yes, here is the whole section in context (which if anything makes it seem even more slanted against the defendants)--

The Supreme Court of Cassation is in effect a neutral body and I wonder what is being revealed here, and why? I think it is likely that they want a comprehensive analysis of the crime, the motive, and what roles were played by each of the 3 -

but yes, it seems the foregone conclusion here is that they were there with Guede.

p 73 Supreme Court of Cassation Sentencing Report

"In conclusion, the contested judgment is set aside for the many profiles highlighting the shortcomings, contradictions and manifest lack of logic,
mentioned above.

The Court of Review must therefore remedy, in its broadest powers of discretion, the critical aspects of argumentation, operating a global and unitary examination of evidence, through which examination is to be ascertained where the relative ambiguity of each piece of evidence can be resolved, as in the overall assessment each clue is added to and integrated with others.

The outcome of this assessment will be crucial not only to osmotically demonstrate the presence of the two defendants in the locus delicti commissi, but possibly to delineate the subjective position of the co-conspirators of Guede, in the face of the range of hypothetical situations, ranging from agreement on genetic option of death, to the modification of a program that initially contemplated only the involvement of the young English woman in an unwanted sex game, to the forcing of an erotic game pushed by the group, which blew up out of control."
 
  • #782
International journalist Andrea Vogt has released more information about the monkey business with Hampikian. It's an interesting read!
You mean on her site? I'm on my way! Thanks for the tip...... :)
 
  • #783
B) RS's DNA on the bra clasp also has problems.

1) It was found days later at a site 1 1/2 meters from it's original
site.

2) The material to which it was attached was initially white and by
the time it was collected had turned gray.

3) How does one get one's DNA ONLY on the clasp and not the
material?


4) It seems somewhat coincidental that Steffanoni decided to collect
the clasp only AFTER the only evidence linking RS to the murder
(the bloody shoeprint initially attributed to RS but later shown to
match a shoe RG disposed of while in Germay) was discredited.
Why was it not collected earlier and why was it's collection so
throughly documented. It's as if she KNEW it was going to
contain RS's DNA.

5) My understanding is that somewhere between 2 and 4 other
people's DNA was found on the clasp or the material to which the
clasp was attached. Why weren't the people who collected the
clasp sampled to see if their DNA matched one of the 4. If it did
it would prove contamination.

BBM
<respectfully snipped for emphasis>

Welcome to the forum and thank you for your insights.

3) "How does one get one's DNA ONLY on the clasp and not the
material?"

I find the above question unusual. Why would it be unusual that DNA was found on a metal clasp but not on the adjoining fabric?
 
  • #784
  • #785
Hi everyone, I'm a new poster here but have been following this case closely ever since the first trial in 2009. As a means of introduction, I hold a dual MD/PhD degree with my PhD in genetics (although I have no significant expertise in forensic DNA analysis). I have spent the last 30 years as an academic radiologist. That means I do day-to-day radiology, teach medical students and radiology residents and do research. For 5 years I served as the forensic radiology consultant for the state of Virginia mostly helping identify victim's remains. Thus, I have some experience in how murder investigations are conducted. As I said above, I am a new POSTER to this sight but have been following the discussions here, at pro-inocense and pro-guilt as well as other neutral sights for some time now: therefore, I am familiar with the evidence and the arguments both for and against guilt. I must admit that my knowledge of this case's details is not as encyclopedic as some of yours on this site.

With that preamble, and recognizing that this site is dedicated to finding THE TRUTH of various criminal cases, I would like to ask everyone on this site the following simple question (and I do so with no axe to grind). If you were a member of the current jury, could you honestly find AK and RS quilty, BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT?

Trying to keep an open mind, I have looked at the evidence and could NOT in clear conscience vote guilty. I am torn between innocent and not guilty.

I doubt that we will ever KNOW, with certainty, what happened the night of the murder (unless one of the 3 suspects eventually confesses) but I could not vote guilty for the following reasons:
1) This investigation was flawed from the beginning. Collection of evidence was done by people who either didn't know proper technique, didn't care or worse, purposely cherry-picked what evidence to collect. I offer as evidence the commical video of Steffanoni (sp?) and her underlings handeling the bra clasp and the failure to analyze the apparent semen stain. Additionally, a couple of computer harddrives were fried. Was this incompetence or was there a more malevolent motive like destroying exculpatory evidence. I would like to believe the former but I'm not sure.

2) The interrogation of AK seems to have violated accepted standards (no lawyer provided, a biased translator, possible physical abuse (especially in light of the physical abuse described by Patrick L) and to top it off failure to record the interrogation. I honestly can't buy the argument that AK and RS were not suspects at the time of the interrogation, of course they were.

3) The scientific work by Steffanoni was incompetent at best and at worst criminally culpable.

A) The analysis of the DNA sample on the knife purportedly matching MK's DNA was not carried out to international standards and would not be admitted as evidence in most European and North American courts. I also can't buy the argument that the knife taken from RS's apartment is "compatible" with the blood stain found on the sheet in MK's room. It doesn't pass the eye test.

B) RS's DNA on the bra clasp also has problems.

1) It was found days later at a site 1 1/2 meters from it's original
site.

2) The material to which it was attached was initially white and by
the time it was collected had turned gray.

3) How does one get one's DNA ONLY on the clasp and not the
material?

4) It seems somewhat coincidental that Steffanoni decided to collect
the clasp only AFTER the only evidence linking RS to the murder
(the bloody shoeprint initially attributed to RS but later shown to
match a shoe RG disposed of while in Germay) was discredited.
Why was it not collected earlier and why was it's collection so
throughly documented. It's as if she KNEW it was going to
contain RS's DNA.

5) My understanding is that somewhere between 2 and 4 other
people's DNA was found on the clasp or the material to which the
clasp was attached. Why weren't the people who collected the
clasp sampled to see if their DNA matched one of the 4. If it did
it would prove contamination.

C) The luminal+ footprints are problematic. They tested- with TMB. In
forensic labs that I'm aware of, this combination would have
precipitated the need for further testing. Steffanoni did NOT do these
follow-up tests and in fact initially lied about the TMB tests being
done. Why?

4) The prosecution has offered no consistent motive for the murder. I know the pro-gulit people point to the prank that AK apparently played on her roommates while in college but I tend to dismiss that as significant from personal experience. While I was a student, at an Ivy League college, I belonged to a fraternity. It was the custom to allow the pledges, who were near initiation, one night where they could seek revenge on a brother, if they could get away with it, without the other brothers finding out and preventing the prank. My senior year, I did not live in the fraternity house but rather served as a counselor in a freshman dorm. I was easy pickens. The pledges, kidnapped me from my room, stripped me down to my underwear, hogtied me and drove me to my future inlaw's home, 10 miles from campus. They put me on the frontlawn, rang the doorbell and when my future mother-in-law came to door, they leaned out of the car, and said, "Do you know Bill C? He's on your front lawn after we showed him who's boss." They then drove away. Needless to say, she freaked out. She didn't think the prank was very funny and at the time neither did I. Now both she and I think back on the incident and laugh. I mention this because NONE of the people committing the prank have ever done anything criminally violent and to my knowledge have never in any way had problems with the law. My prank was somewhat violent. AK's was not, so I think it's a little far fetched to presume that a college prank is evidence of future wrongdoings.

5) The prosecution has NEVER presented a timeline that fits the 3 suspects' involvement and the evidence. In fact they have never presented a consistent timeline at all.

A) RG's testimony, MK's stomach contents not reaching the duodenum and the "stolen phones being sending signals from a place relatively far from the house at 10:13pm strongly suggest that the murder occurred sometime probably between 9-10pm. If the drug addict who purportedly saw AK and RS at the park from 9:30-12, is to be believed (which I do not), AK and RS therefore would have had to killed MK between 9 and 9:30 pm. Unfortunately, for the prosecution, there is evidence that places AK and RS at RS house until 9:21pm watching a movie. It would be quite a trick for them to leave the house, meet up with RG (who by the way they apparently "knew" only in the most superficial way, if at all (at least in RS's case), kill MK and dump the phones someways from the apartment by 10:13 at the latest much less 9:30 as implied by the drug addicted witness.

6) I feel that the evidence of a staged robbery and coverup is tenuous. The British channel 5 documentary convinced me that a person could climb up to the window after throwing a 9 pound rock thru the window from below. Their forensic glass expert said the individual glass shards could be examined to determine the direction of breakage. This was never done. Why not? Poor police work! There is damage to the inside shudder with glass imbedded in it to suggest that the window was broken from the outside. It is my understanding that a shard of glass from the window was found in MK's room. This would imply that whoever "staged" the break in would have had to go back into the murder room. Why would AK or RS risk leaving traces of themselves in the murder room if they didn't have to?

A) The prosecutors claim that AK and RS cleaned up evidence of their presence the next day. It seems highly unlikely they would be able to remove evidence of their presence from the murder room while leaving copious evidence of RG's involvement. Outside the room could be a different story although I honestly doubt it. How could they clean the hallway of most blood evidence, leave some bloody footprints (RG's) and other luminol+/TMB- footprints without leaving the luminol smear that one typically sees following blood cleanup attempts?

B) The footprint on the bathmat is somewhat difficult to explain. There is no DEFINITIVE evidence that it belongs to RS. In fact, to my eyes it could just as easily belong to RG. I am usually not one for proposing untested scenarios but in this case, I will. Suppose RG got one leg of his pants but not his shoes soaked in blood during the murder. He went into the bathroom wearing his shoes, took one of them off, and attempted to rinse his trouser leg off in the bidet. Some of the blood from the trousers washed down and covered his foot. Stepping out of the bidet he placed one foot on the bathmat leaving the stain (which if I'm not mistaken was felt to be diluted blood: I may be wrong on this point). He them put his shoe back on and attempted to leave the house. While walking down the hall his wet paints leg, still partly bloody dripped onto his shoe accounting for the bloody shoe prints leading to the door.

7) Why did AK NOT notice the foot print on the following morning when she took a shower? I admit this bothered me a little until I saw the video of the bathroom taken shortly after the murder was discovered. In viewing that video, the foot print appeared rather inconspicuous to my eyes and could easily be mistaken for a dirty footprint (remember the blood appears diluted) if one is not suspicious that something violent had occurred. Remember all, her roommates stated that AK was not the most tidy of housekeepers so a dirty bathmat probably would not bother her.

Things I still don't have an explanation for:
1) The woman who heard the scream. I suspect there was a scream but when? RG claims there was a scream at 9:30 pm. How would he benefit from misstating the time he heard the scream? The woman claims that it was sometime after 10 but can't pinpoint it. Her daughter never heard a scream and the people in the broken down car outside claim to have heard nothing from (if I remember correctly) 9:30-11:30.

2) I don't know the significance of the shop owner who claims that AK was waiting for him to open at 7:30 the day after the murder to buy bleach but apparently she left without buying any (there's no receipt). Why would she need to buy bleach when there was plenty in RS flat.

3) AK's "peculiar' behavior at multiple phases of the investigation. I admit that I probably would not have done some of the things she has done, such as recently admitting that she would technically be a fugitive if the current trial ends in a guilty verdict and admitting to the collegiate prank. But if anything this shows poor judgement and a sort of naiveté, NOT guilt. It's the same poor judgement she exhibited in wearing the "all you need is love" teeshirt to the first trial.


Even though I can't explain all aspects of this crime, as a scientist and someone who believes in justice, I need to have proof BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT before I would send 2 people to jail for a large portion of their lives. In this case, the evidence that I'm aware of doesn't begin to approach that standard. Am I convinced they are innocent BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT? No, but I am much closer to reaching this standard and fortunately for AK and RS this is NOT the standard they are expected to prove. if I were a jury member, I would have to vote at least NOT GUILTY but would consider INNOCENT.
Welcome to the forum! You have impressive credentials. Still making my way through your post but a couple of initial thoughts:

I would agree that Knox's behavior has nothing to do with guilt (in terms of her manner of dress, quirks, etc.).

Insofar as the prank goes:

Yes, it is true: Many, many people have played college pranks, and one can see that you were a victim of one of the (more or less) extreme ones. Obviously, there is no necessary connection between Knox's prank at the University of Washington and the Perugia crime. At the time it occurred , it did not foreshadow later events in Perugia.

However - in retrospect, it takes on a meaning it did not have at the time the prank was contrived, and it does so because of all the pranks Knox may have chosen to do, she chose the one which mirrors one of the charges against her (simulation). It also lends motive and a cohesive narrative to the crime.
Of course none of this proves anything. But psychologically and intuitively, it resonates. Nina Burleigh's text gives one to understand that Amanda has a history of pranking as a way of coping with anxiety (my understanding).

Thanks for your posting......
 
  • #786
From Otto: <respectfully snipped for emphasis>

Welcome to the forum and thank you for your insights.

3) "How does one get one's DNA ONLY on the clasp and not the
material?"

I find the above question unusual. Why would it be unusual that DNA was found on a metal clasp but not on the adjoining fabric?

Otto:
Is it impossible? No! Improbable, yes! RS had no fingernails (he bit them).
Mechanically I have a very hard time envisioning how or why he would grab onto the clasp without touching the adjoining fabric. Whether he was trying to unhook or rip the bra off MK he would almost certainly have to touch the fabric. If he was attempting to pick up the piece from the floor (for whatever reason) it would be unlikely that he would pick it up by the clasp. It just doesn't seem logical.

Sorry, I don't know how to highlight the previous posts to which I am referring.
 
  • #787
Otto:
Is it impossible? No! Improbable, yes! RS had no fingernails (he bit them).
Mechanically I have a very hard time envisioning how or why he would grab onto the clasp without touching the adjoining fabric. Whether he was trying to unhook or rip the bra off MK he would almost certainly have to touch the fabric. If he was attempting to pick up the piece from the floor (for whatever reason) it would be unlikely that he would pick it up by the clasp. It just doesn't seem logical.

Sorry, I don't know how to highlight the previous posts to which I am referring.

The fabric was cut. That is obvious in terms of the integrity of the edge of the piece of evidence. One forward facing finger (as in looking at the fingerprint) under the clasp (no fingernails required), and a quick slice of the knife, would result in the bra clasp evidence. It seems to me that it would be far more likely for DNA to be left on a metal clasp than a piece of fabric, which is supported by the evidence. For example, the sweatshirt worn by Meredith had Guede's DNA only on one cuff. If he acted alone, I think it's safe to assume he touched much more than the cuff of the sweatshirt. If DNA were left in abundance, then the sweatshirt should be covered with DNA, but that is not the case.

(hit the QUOTE button to include the comment in the response)
 
  • #788
SMK,
I have no argument with your attempt to connect the dots between the prank and AK's involvement with the murder but I feel that it's much easier to connect the dots between RG's previous CRIMINAL break ins (including entrance by breaking a closed window and the brandishing of a knife) and the murder.
By the way, in reading this site for sometime, it's obvious that you have doubts on both the guilt and innocence side. If I may put you in a corner, could you please answer the question I posed in my original post. If you were a member of the current jury could you vote for guilt BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT?
 
  • #789
SMK,
I have no argument with your attempt to connect the dots between the prank and AK's involvement with the murder but I feel that it's much easier to connect the dots between RG's previous CRIMINAL break ins (including entrance by breaking a closed window and the brandishing of a knife) and the murder.
By the way, in reading this site for sometime, it's obvious that you have doubts on both the guilt and innocence side. If I may put you in a corner, could you please answer the question I posed in my original post. If you were a member of the current jury could you vote for guilt BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT?
I would agree that Guede's past is very revealing, and connected to the Kercher crime.

Well, yes, I do have serious doubts, serious misgivings. I am open to guilt, I am interested in it, I have many intuitions that the defendants have some culpability. At times, I even feel certain of it.

But to answer your question as best as I can at the present moment, I will say that I am glad I am not on this jury, but if I were, I would have a difficult time voting for guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. (addendum: UNLESS certain things could be cleared up, such as is it true, as Professor Halkides seemed to say, that Knox's footprints were found because she was "profiled" and the other housemates were not? In other words, if I understand him correctly, luminol may have glowed for Laura and Filomena footprints on the floor, had the CSIs been looking for them? Is this true or not? I don't have the expertise so must defer to others like yourself. :blushing:
 
  • #790
The fabric was cut. That is obvious in terms of the integrity of the edge of the piece of evidence. One forward facing finger (as in looking at the fingerprint) under the clasp (no fingernails required), and a quick slice of the knife, would result in the bra clasp evidence. It seems to me that it would be far more likely for DNA to be left on a metal clasp than a piece of fabric, which is supported by the evidence. For example, the sweatshirt worn by Meredith had Guede's DNA only on one cuff. If he acted alone, I think it's safe to assume he touched much more than the cuff of the sweatshirt. If DNA were left in abundance, then the sweatshirt should be covered with DNA, but that is not the case.

(hit the QUOTE button to include the comment in the response)

Thanks for your reply and suggestion. I can see your scenario as a possibility but at this point I think that contamination or possible planting of evidence by Steffanoni as equally likely. Regarding the possible planting evidence, how else can you explain the need to record the collection of the clasp and the triumphant passing around of the clasp, replacing it on the ground and picking it up again before bagging it? They had no idea that it would contain RS's DNA at the time of collection or did they? I usually scoff at conspiracy theorists but there have been so many "mistakes" made by the police, prosecutors and forensic laboratory people that the possibility that the "fix is in" has to be at least entertained here. I admit, however, I have no proof of this and as such SHOULD not influence the decision of a juror to convict or acquit.
 
  • #791
The bra clasp has a layer of material between the clasp and the skin. If one puts their finger between the bra clasp and the skin they still wouldn't be touching the clasp itself. There would still be the material seperating the two. A woman is not going to wear a bra that has an exposed metal hook that will dig into her skin. It still makes no sense for RS's DNA to be on the metal hook only. Especially when that metal hook was touched by the dirty gloved finger of one of the investigators.

MOO
 
  • #792
:welcome4: Bill C!
 
  • #793
The bra clasp has a layer of material between the clasp and the skin. If one puts their finger between the bra clasp and the skin they still wouldn't be touching the clasp itself. There would still be the material seperating the two. A woman is not going to wear a bra that has an exposed metal hook that will dig into her skin. It still makes no sense for RS's DNA to be on the metal hook only. Especially when that metal hook was touched by the dirty gloved finger of one of the investigators.

MOO

That little flap of material can sometimes fold back, mine does this many times never do the hooks dig into my skin. Those metal hooks are not sharp.
 
  • #794
That little flap of material can sometimes fold back, mine does this many times never do the hooks dig into my skin. Those metal hooks are not sharp.

Unless one uses the very first row of hooks, then the material should cover well enough. If one uses the very first row of hooks, then one may need to think of investing in a larger bra. The hooks do not need to be sharp to dig into the skin if the material is not there to prevent it.

MOO
 
  • #795
SMK,
I really admire your willingness to have an open mind. I my field, that's a prerequisite of a true scientist. In reading many of the posts on this and other sites, I am struck by how willing people are to conjecture on what happened that night and during the following investigation and trials without good evidence to back up that conjecture. That applies to both the pro-gulit and pro-innocence people. In fact, I find myself doing the same thing at times. Although this is a fun exercise on sites like this, I caution that such partially supported conjectures can be very dangerous when dealing with the lives of defendants. I have served on 2 juries in my life and when placed in the position of deciding another's fate, I tried to abandon ANY conjecturing and based my decision only on the basis of sound evidence. I admit that by eschewing conjecture, some guilty parties will go free but it really helps prevent innocent people from being convicted. Unfortunately, if the trials involved in this case are any indication, the Italian Justice system seems to thrive on conjecture and that is extremely dangerous to providing true justice whether it's justice for the victim and her family or justice for the defendants.
 
  • #796
That little flap of material can sometimes fold back, mine does this many times never do the hooks dig into my skin. Those metal hooks are not sharp.



This has happened to me numerous times. I also varied which eyes I hooked them into sometimes going to the end eyes during my period. I would never have thought I needed a larger bra just because I used the end hooks.

Now I wear athletic bras whenever I can, lol.

I also don't see the need for DNA to be on the material as well as the hook. DNA was found only on the cuff of the jacket.
 
  • #797
This has happened to me numerous times. I also varied which eyes I hooked them into sometimes going to the end eyes during my period. I would never have thought I needed a larger bra just because I used the end hooks.

Now I wear athletic bras whenever I can, lol.

I also don't see the need for DNA to be on the material as well as the hook. DNA was found only on the cuff of the jacket.

A jacket that also was not collected for 46 days. This makes it another huge oversight by the investigators. The jacket was finally collected from the dirty clothes hamper. So which investigator decided it was a good idea to put a bloody jacket in the hamper with other things? Like the bra clasp, the jacket should not even be considered, IMO.
 
  • #798
Thanks for your reply and suggestion. I can see your scenario as a possibility but at this point I think that contamination or possible planting of evidence by Steffanoni as equally likely. Regarding the possible planting evidence, how else can you explain the need to record the collection of the clasp and the triumphant passing around of the clasp, replacing it on the ground and picking it up again before bagging it? They had no idea that it would contain RS's DNA at the time of collection or did they? I usually scoff at conspiracy theorists but there have been so many "mistakes" made by the police, prosecutors and forensic laboratory people that the possibility that the "fix is in" has to be at least entertained here. I admit, however, I have no proof of this and as such SHOULD not influence the decision of a juror to convict or acquit.

Planting of evidence?

Hmmmmmm
That seems like a bit of a huge leap for a scientific mind.
 
  • #799
Thanks for your reply and suggestion. I can see your scenario as a possibility but at this point I think that contamination or possible planting of evidence by Steffanoni as equally likely. Regarding the possible planting evidence, how else can you explain the need to record the collection of the clasp and the triumphant passing around of the clasp, replacing it on the ground and picking it up again before bagging it? They had no idea that it would contain RS's DNA at the time of collection or did they? I usually scoff at conspiracy theorists but there have been so many "mistakes" made by the police, prosecutors and forensic laboratory people that the possibility that the "fix is in" has to be at least entertained here. I admit, however, I have no proof of this and as such SHOULD not influence the decision of a juror to convict or acquit.
The idea of the planting of Sollecito's DNA is deeply disturbing. If professionals are not opposed to planting DNA, then no one's life is safe.

I would think if there is a suspicion of this, it would be followed through and open up a whole new criminal investigation.

It is not a neutral idea: How can such an idea - that Stefanoni planted Sollectio's DNA deliberately on the bra clasp - just be brought up , and nothing done about it? How can there be faith in the process with such suspicions bandied about?

And insofar as the video in which they passed the clasp around: Did they know it would make many lose faith in their professionalism?
 
  • #800
Planting of evidence?

Hmmmmmm
That seems like a bit of a huge leap for a scientific mind.

Why? If one watches the video of the investigators collecting the bra clasp, one can see that a big production is made of it. Why was the bloody jacket that was also collected the same day not given the same amount of attention? The investigators even made a big production of placing the clasp in the collection bag.
 
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