Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#12

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  • #801
The idea of the planting of Sollecito's DNA is deeply disturbing. If professionals are not opposed to planting DNA, then no one's life is safe.

I would think if there is a suspicion of this, it would be followed through and open up a whole new criminal investigation.

It is not a neutral idea: How can such an idea - that Stefanoni planted Sollectio's DNA deliberately on the bra clasp - just be brought up , and nothing done about it? How can there be faith in the process with such suspicions bandied about?

And insofar as the video in which they passed the clasp around: Did they know it would make many lose faith in their professionalism?

BBM

As professionals they should have known that the manner in which they handled the bra clasp; passing it around, holding it by the hooks, placing it back on the floor to take photos of "where it was found", should have been a huge red flag in their minds. Of course the video would make many question if they are unprofessional or not. It also calls into the question as to why the "evidence" was even allowed to be used in court.

MOO
 
  • #802
The idea of the planting of Sollecito's DNA is deeply disturbing. If professionals are not opposed to planting DNA, then no one's life is safe.

I would think if there is a suspicion of this, it would be followed through and open up a whole new criminal investigation.

It is not a neutral idea: How can such an idea - that Stefanoni planted Sollectio's DNA deliberately on the bra clasp - just be brought up , and nothing done about it? How can there be faith in the process with such suspicions bandied about?

And insofar as the video in which they passed the clasp around: Did they know it would make many lose faith in their professionalism?

This coming after a post about conjecture... To try and discredit a piece of evidence by accusing them of planting RS DNA on the clasp is ridiculous. If they were planting his DNA, surely it would've been found on the empty purse and jacket that was collected the same day.
 
  • #803
This coming after a post about conjecture... To try and discredit a piece of evidence by accusing them of planting RS DNA on the clasp is ridiculous. If they were planting his DNA, surely it would've been found on the empty purse and jacket that was collected the same day.



ITA. And surely they would have put AK in the room as well. With her lamp in the room that would have been easy enough to do.

And I would think they would have "found" the DNA on something collected the first day.
 
  • #804
This coming after a post about conjecture... To try and discredit a piece of evidence by accusing them of planting RS DNA on the clasp is ridiculous. If they were planting his DNA, surely it would've been found on the empty purse and jacket that was collected the same day.
That is my point: The planting of evidence is so serious, that it cannot simply be a conjecture: It has to be either acted on or dropped as a topic.
 
  • #805
Hi everyone, I'm a new poster here but have been following this case closely ever since the first trial in 2009. As a means of introduction, I hold a dual MD/PhD degree with my PhD in genetics (although I have no significant expertise in forensic DNA analysis). I have spent the last 30 years as an academic radiologist. That means I do day-to-day radiology, teach medical students and radiology residents and do research. For 5 years I served as the forensic radiology consultant for the state of Virginia mostly helping identify victim's remains. Thus, I have some experience in how murder investigations are conducted. As I said above, I am a new POSTER to this sight but have been following the discussions here, at pro-inocense and pro-guilt as well as other neutral sights for some time now: therefore, I am familiar with the evidence and the arguments both for and against guilt. I must admit that my knowledge of this case's details is not as encyclopedic as some of yours on this site.

With that preamble, and recognizing that this site is dedicated to finding THE TRUTH of various criminal cases, I would like to ask everyone on this site the following simple question (and I do so with no axe to grind). If you were a member of the current jury, could you honestly find AK and RS quilty, BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT?

Trying to keep an open mind, I have looked at the evidence and could NOT in clear conscience vote guilty. I am torn between innocent and not guilty.

I doubt that we will ever KNOW, with certainty, what happened the night of the murder (unless one of the 3 suspects eventually confesses) but I could not vote guilty for the following reasons:
1) This investigation was flawed from the beginning. Collection of evidence was done by people who either didn't know proper technique, didn't care or worse, purposely cherry-picked what evidence to collect. I offer as evidence the commical video of Steffanoni (sp?) and her underlings handeling the bra clasp and the failure to analyze the apparent semen stain. Additionally, a couple of computer harddrives were fried. Was this incompetence or was there a more malevolent motive like destroying exculpatory evidence. I would like to believe the former but I'm not sure.

2) The interrogation of AK seems to have violated accepted standards (no lawyer provided, a biased translator, possible physical abuse (especially in light of the physical abuse described by Patrick L) and to top it off failure to record the interrogation. I honestly can't buy the argument that AK and RS were not suspects at the time of the interrogation, of course they were.

3) The scientific work by Steffanoni was incompetent at best and at worst criminally culpable.

A) The analysis of the DNA sample on the knife purportedly matching MK's DNA was not carried out to international standards and would not be admitted as evidence in most European and North American courts. I also can't buy the argument that the knife taken from RS's apartment is "compatible" with the blood stain found on the sheet in MK's room. It doesn't pass the eye test.

B) RS's DNA on the bra clasp also has problems.

1) It was found days later at a site 1 1/2 meters from it's original
site.

2) The material to which it was attached was initially white and by
the time it was collected had turned gray.

3) How does one get one's DNA ONLY on the clasp and not the
material?

4) It seems somewhat coincidental that Steffanoni decided to collect
the clasp only AFTER the only evidence linking RS to the murder
(the bloody shoeprint initially attributed to RS but later shown to
match a shoe RG disposed of while in Germay) was discredited.
Why was it not collected earlier and why was it's collection so
throughly documented. It's as if she KNEW it was going to
contain RS's DNA.

5) My understanding is that somewhere between 2 and 4 other
people's DNA was found on the clasp or the material to which the
clasp was attached. Why weren't the people who collected the
clasp sampled to see if their DNA matched one of the 4. If it did
it would prove contamination.

C) The luminal+ footprints are problematic. They tested- with TMB. In
forensic labs that I'm aware of, this combination would have
precipitated the need for further testing. Steffanoni did NOT do these
follow-up tests and in fact initially lied about the TMB tests being
done. Why?

4) The prosecution has offered no consistent motive for the murder. I know the pro-gulit people point to the prank that AK apparently played on her roommates while in college but I tend to dismiss that as significant from personal experience. While I was a student, at an Ivy League college, I belonged to a fraternity. It was the custom to allow the pledges, who were near initiation, one night where they could seek revenge on a brother, if they could get away with it, without the other brothers finding out and preventing the prank. My senior year, I did not live in the fraternity house but rather served as a counselor in a freshman dorm. I was easy pickens. The pledges, kidnapped me from my room, stripped me down to my underwear, hogtied me and drove me to my future inlaw's home, 10 miles from campus. They put me on the frontlawn, rang the doorbell and when my future mother-in-law came to door, they leaned out of the car, and said, "Do you know Bill C? He's on your front lawn after we showed him who's boss." They then drove away. Needless to say, she freaked out. She didn't think the prank was very funny and at the time neither did I. Now both she and I think back on the incident and laugh. I mention this because NONE of the people committing the prank have ever done anything criminally violent and to my knowledge have never in any way had problems with the law. My prank was somewhat violent. AK's was not, so I think it's a little far fetched to presume that a college prank is evidence of future wrongdoings.

5) The prosecution has NEVER presented a timeline that fits the 3 suspects' involvement and the evidence. In fact they have never presented a consistent timeline at all.

A) RG's testimony, MK's stomach contents not reaching the duodenum and the "stolen phones being sending signals from a place relatively far from the house at 10:13pm strongly suggest that the murder occurred sometime probably between 9-10pm. If the drug addict who purportedly saw AK and RS at the park from 9:30-12, is to be believed (which I do not), AK and RS therefore would have had to killed MK between 9 and 9:30 pm. Unfortunately, for the prosecution, there is evidence that places AK and RS at RS house until 9:21pm watching a movie. It would be quite a trick for them to leave the house, meet up with RG (who by the way they apparently "knew" only in the most superficial way, if at all (at least in RS's case), kill MK and dump the phones someways from the apartment by 10:13 at the latest much less 9:30 as implied by the drug addicted witness.

6) I feel that the evidence of a staged robbery and coverup is tenuous. The British channel 5 documentary convinced me that a person could climb up to the window after throwing a 9 pound rock thru the window from below. Their forensic glass expert said the individual glass shards could be examined to determine the direction of breakage. This was never done. Why not? Poor police work! There is damage to the inside shudder with glass imbedded in it to suggest that the window was broken from the outside. It is my understanding that a shard of glass from the window was found in MK's room. This would imply that whoever "staged" the break in would have had to go back into the murder room. Why would AK or RS risk leaving traces of themselves in the murder room if they didn't have to?

A) The prosecutors claim that AK and RS cleaned up evidence of their presence the next day. It seems highly unlikely they would be able to remove evidence of their presence from the murder room while leaving copious evidence of RG's involvement. Outside the room could be a different story although I honestly doubt it. How could they clean the hallway of most blood evidence, leave some bloody footprints (RG's) and other luminol+/TMB- footprints without leaving the luminol smear that one typically sees following blood cleanup attempts?

B) The footprint on the bathmat is somewhat difficult to explain. There is no DEFINITIVE evidence that it belongs to RS. In fact, to my eyes it could just as easily belong to RG. I am usually not one for proposing untested scenarios but in this case, I will. Suppose RG got one leg of his pants but not his shoes soaked in blood during the murder. He went into the bathroom wearing his shoes, took one of them off, and attempted to rinse his trouser leg off in the bidet. Some of the blood from the trousers washed down and covered his foot. Stepping out of the bidet he placed one foot on the bathmat leaving the stain (which if I'm not mistaken was felt to be diluted blood: I may be wrong on this point). He them put his shoe back on and attempted to leave the house. While walking down the hall his wet paints leg, still partly bloody dripped onto his shoe accounting for the bloody shoe prints leading to the door.

7) Why did AK NOT notice the foot print on the following morning when she took a shower? I admit this bothered me a little until I saw the video of the bathroom taken shortly after the murder was discovered. In viewing that video, the foot print appeared rather inconspicuous to my eyes and could easily be mistaken for a dirty footprint (remember the blood appears diluted) if one is not suspicious that something violent had occurred. Remember all, her roommates stated that AK was not the most tidy of housekeepers so a dirty bathmat probably would not bother her.

Things I still don't have an explanation for:
1) The woman who heard the scream. I suspect there was a scream but when? RG claims there was a scream at 9:30 pm. How would he benefit from misstating the time he heard the scream? The woman claims that it was sometime after 10 but can't pinpoint it. Her daughter never heard a scream and the people in the broken down car outside claim to have heard nothing from (if I remember correctly) 9:30-11:30.

2) I don't know the significance of the shop owner who claims that AK was waiting for him to open at 7:30 the day after the murder to buy bleach but apparently she left without buying any (there's no receipt). Why would she need to buy bleach when there was plenty in RS flat.

3) AK's "peculiar' behavior at multiple phases of the investigation. I admit that I probably would not have done some of the things she has done, such as recently admitting that she would technically be a fugitive if the current trial ends in a guilty verdict and admitting to the collegiate prank. But if anything this shows poor judgement and a sort of naiveté, NOT guilt. It's the same poor judgement she exhibited in wearing the "all you need is love" teeshirt to the first trial.


Even though I can't explain all aspects of this crime, as a scientist and someone who believes in justice, I need to have proof BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT before I would send 2 people to jail for a large portion of their lives. In this case, the evidence that I'm aware of doesn't begin to approach that standard. Am I convinced they are innocent BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT? No, but I am much closer to reaching this standard and fortunately for AK and RS this is NOT the standard they are expected to prove. if I were a jury member, I would have to vote at least NOT GUILTY but would consider INNOCENT.

Hi Bill C and Welcome!

I feel like there is much evidence pointing towards them, to where jury members would feel firmly convinced of their guilt. I do not know what I would do in that position, as I know it would be much different to actually have people's freedom in your hands.

Let's take away everything from the cottage. Let's take away Amanda and Raffaele's words. Let's take away everything. There is one thing that can have no explanation - why is Meredith's DNA on a knife in Raffaele's kitchen?

I know that the supporters of her innocence do not believe that is a murder knife, and also do not believe that Meredith's DNA on that knife is valid. But IF Meredith's DNA on the knife is valid - no matter what explanations there are for anything else in the case - there is no explanation for that.

I want you to please think about this for a minute. Because for all the people who say there is "no evidence" pointing towards Amanda and Raffaele - I think this SOLE FACTOR of the victim's DNA on a knife in a defendant's kitchen, of which there IS NO REASONABLE EXPLANATION for the victim's DNA to be there, would be enough to get "guilty" for that defendant in any courtroom in the USA, when combined with the circumstantial evidence. And the circumstantial evidence could be very slim, whereas in this case, I believe it is plenty. It would get "guilty."

There is no reason for Meredith's DNA to be on a knife in Raffele's kitchen. We can have explanations for each and every other thing in this case. There is no explanation for that.

Here we have NOT only the knife with Meredith's DNA, but then all the other forensic and circumstantial evidence pointing towards Amanda and RS.

It is more than reasonable doubt, IMO.
 
  • #806
I'm starting to wonder if scientists see any value in DNA as far as trials go anymore.

If it is transferred do easily I don't see how it could have much value.
 
  • #807
I'm starting to wonder if scientists see any value in DNA as far as trials go anymore.

If it is transferred do easily I don't see how it could have much value.
Yes , I have thought this about DNA, and luminol, too. From the writings of many scientist, there is so little faith in the reliability of it, that it would seem perhaps these things should be done away with in terms of evidence.
 
  • #808
  • #809
Why? If one watches the video of the investigators collecting the bra clasp, one can see that a big production is made of it. Why was the bloody jacket that was also collected the same day not given the same amount of attention? The investigators even made a big production of placing the clasp in the collection bag.

Wildly alleging that a respected court expert would intentionally plant evidence at a crime scene sounds to me like something out of a tabloid. I would expect a scientific argument to be a constructed argument.
 
  • #810
Yes , I have thought this about DNA, and luminol, too. From the writings of many scientist, there is so little faith in the reliability of it, that it would seem perhaps these things should be done away with in terms of evidence.

Yes it's always tough to know which "experts" to trust, I mean there are always experts to discredit experts.
 
  • #811
That is my point: The planting of evidence is so serious, that it cannot simply be a conjecture: It has to be either acted on or dropped as a topic.

There have been any number of serious allegations discussed extensively here - Amanda pranking a burglary and Amanda asking Rudy to rob Meredith are two examples - based on conjecture.

BTW, I believe the finding of Meredith's DNA on the knife and the finding of Raffaele's DNA on the bra clasp have very little if any evidentiary weight in this case. I believe it is entirely possible that DNA evidence was planted in this case. OTOH, there really is not any specific evidence pointing to the planting of evidence and I am reluctant to raise it as a possibility here. There are plenty of reasons to reject those 2 DNA findings without invoking planting.

It is no more conjecture to say DNA was planted in this case than it is to say that a prank led to the murder of Meredith.
 
  • #812
I'm starting to wonder if scientists see any value in DNA as far as trials go anymore.

If it is transferred do easily I don't see how it could have much value.

Don't allow agenda driven views to distort the value of DNA in trials. It has a place and a purpose. It is not transferred so easily, and it does not rain DNA.
 
  • #813
Yes , I have thought this about DNA, and luminol, too. From the writings of many scientist, there is so little faith in the reliability of it, that it would seem perhaps these things should be done away with in terms of evidence.

There has been a major effort by few to undermine the prosecution case in the trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher. It is truly unfortunate, as she deserves justice. Efforts to undermine the case have included personal attacks on officers of the court, the jury, the process, the investigators, the analysts, the forensics, the use of luminol, DNA analysis, the definition of the crime scene, and pretty much every individual that was involved in the case as part of his or her job. Additionally, journalists that did not criticize the Italian justice system were attacked.
 
  • #814
There have been any number of serious allegations discussed extensively here - Amanda pranking a burglary and Amanda asking Rudy to rob Meredith are two examples - based on conjecture.

BTW, I believe the finding of Meredith's DNA on the knife and the finding of Raffaele's DNA on the bra clasp have very little if any evidentiary weight in this case. I believe it is entirely possible that DNA evidence was planted in this case. OTOH, there really is not any specific evidence pointing to the planting of evidence and I am reluctant to raise it as a possibility here. There are plenty of reasons to reject those 2 DNA findings without invoking planting.

It is no more conjecture to say DNA was planted in this case than it is to say that a prank led to the murder of Meredith.

The two don't even compare. One is based on AK admitting she has done a staged burglary as a prank previously. Am I missing where PS has admitted to planting evidence to frame people previously? It's a baseless accusation.
 
  • #815
There has been a major effort by few to undermine the prosecution case in the trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher. It is truly unfortunate, as she deserves justice. Efforts to undermine the case have included personal attacks on officers of the court, the jury, the process, the investigators, the analysts, the forensics, the use of luminol, DNA analysis, the definition of the crime scene, and pretty much every individual that was involved in the case as part of his or her job. Additionally, journalists that did not criticize the Italian justice system were attacked.
It is sad, but only shows the strength of the case IMO.
 
  • #816
  • #817
BBM

As professionals they should have known that the manner in which they handled the bra clasp; passing it around, holding it by the hooks, placing it back on the floor to take photos of "where it was found", should have been a huge red flag in their minds. Of course the video would make many question if they are unprofessional or not. It also calls into the question as to why the "evidence" was even allowed to be used in court.

MOO

Ok, but I'm sorry, you cannot pick and choose which evidence to keep and which to toss out. It has to be something more objective than that. For example, toss out all the DNA evidence collected at the crime scene. Therefore, no DNA evidence admitted in Rudy's case, and no DNA evidence admitted into Amanda and RS's case.

You have to see how discriminatory it sounds that we are only supposed to exclude evidence which is very damaging towards Amanda or RS, and specifically here for Raffaele, in that it has no explanation other than contamination.
 
  • #818
Ok, but I'm sorry, you cannot pick and choose which evidence to keep and which to toss out. It has to be something more objective than that. For example, toss out all the DNA evidence collected at the crime scene. Therefore, no DNA evidence admitted in Rudy's case, and no DNA evidence admitted into Amanda and RS's case.

You have to see how discriminatory it sounds that we are only supposed to exclude evidence which is very damaging towards Amanda or RS, and specifically here for Raffaele, in that it has no explanation other than contamination.

And if you do that, you still have Guede's palm print and shoe prints in Meredith's blood, and aspects of his same MO from at least 3 break in the weeks previous; and he's admitted being in the cottage during the murder.
 
  • #819
I need to respond to a couple of posts here:
1) I absolutely admit that my claim of planting evidence is both inflammatory and conjecture.Having admitted that, I consider Steffanoni's overall behavior very suspect. During her testimony in court she initially omitted the fact that the TMB tests were done on the luminol footprints and were negative. Why would she have not done further tests to either confirm or deny the presence of blood in the footprints found in the hall and failing to perform those confirmatory tests, how could she in good conscience then claim, in court, that the footprints definitely contained blood. She also claimed to have submitted control studies for her low content DNA analysis. To date, no one has been able to find these controls. Most good forensic scientists would keep copies of their data, just so they could have backup in case data is lost. As I stated in my original post, the timing of the collection of the bra clasp corresponding to the prosecution's discovering that the shoe prints in the hall originally ascribed to RS were in fact made by shoes worn by RG seems suspicious. Additionally, the carnival like collection of the the bra clasp seems a little out of place. Why would they have any reason to think the bra clasp would have any more probative value than the rest of the bra which produced no significant evidence? Finally, wouldn't a good scientist store the tested bra clasp in such a manner as to allow further testing? Steffanoni allowed the clasp to rust thus preventing further testing.Taken together(osmoticallyhttp://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/blushing.gif) these should produce some degree of suspicion. In my opinion, Steffanoni was either an incredibly incompetent lab scientist and willing to lie to cover up her incompetence or there is something more malevolent at work here. Notice I'm not mentioning the fried harddrives which Steffanoni had nothing to do with. Do these coincidences amount to proof? Absolutely not. But if I were a juror on this case it would force me to take ANYTHING Steffanoni testified to with a grain of salt. Otto seemed shocked that anyone could conjecture that a duly appointed forensic scientist would stoop so low as to possibly
plant evidence (Otto,I'm sorry if my paraphrasing of your comments is incorrect). I would point out that there is precedence in the US where such a scientist has been fired and is being criminally investigated for doing just that and not in just one case but in possibly hundreds of cases she worked on. This ongoing investigation apparently has the potential of throwing hundreds of convictions out the window (I'm sorry but I do not have the specific reference to these cases available at this time).

With respect to Aa9511, I would agree with you. If MK's blood was CONVINCINGLY found on the knife taken from RS apartment, I too would vote for a guilty verdict. However, and it's a BIG HOWEVER, the DNA analysis does NOT meet International standards in 2 main respects: 1) The analysis was not repeated and International Standards for low content DNA analysis as stated by both CV and the Rome laboratory that did the analysis of the DNA requested by the 2nd appeals court both stated that AT LEAST 2 separate runs are REQUIRED; and 2) No controls, even though Steffanoni claims to have submitted them, have ever been available to be examined by the court appointed expert, CV (in the first appeals trial) or by the defense and their experts at ANY time. Without those controls there is no way to rule out contamination. It should be noted that MK's DNA was run through that lab 6 days before the knife sample and Steffanoni claims that 6 days, in and of itself, is enough to eliminate contamination. I might add that if 6 days was enough time for MK's DNA to dissipate from the lab, why didn't the purported DNA from the bra clasp dissipate in the 12 days between the murder and the time the clasp was collected. With low quantity DNA analysis, in particular, controls are absolutely necessary to eliminate the possibility of contamination. The MK DNA on the knife, as analyzed by Steffanoni, would be inadmissible in just about any court in Western Europe and North America, whether or not it was actually present. Unfortunately for the defendants we are dealing with Italy where this sort of evidence may or may not be acceptable. I'm not a lawyer but if AK and RS are convicted on Jan 20th, and the judge uses the knife's DNA to convict, I suspect that the defendants might have a good basis for appeal to the European Union Court.
 
  • #820
ITA. And surely they would have put AK in the room as well. With her lamp in the room that would have been easy enough to do.

And I would think they would have "found" the DNA on something collected the first day.

As I have said before, why didn't they just plant some DNA for Patrick? That way, they could have gotten all 4 of them. They had also imprisoned Patrick (of course after false accusation), yet they released him.
 
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