Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#12

[aa9511]

The prosecution case has all three culprits involved in the murder. Absence of evidence in Meredith's bedroom, or on either side of her body, is not evidence of absence. There is evidence that more than one person was directly involved in her murder. Evidence at the crime scene implicates Rudy Guede, Amanda Knox and Raffale Sollecito.

However, it would not be surprising to learn that all three perceive that their role was minimal, and therefore that they are not responsible for the murder. Guede has already stated as much.

bbm

Yes, exactly. In my theory, all 3 have shared responsibility for what happened, even if Rudy did the overkill stabbing. That is why no 3 are talking about the others - b/c they ALL 3 have things to hide.

Rudy is probably thinking - well, she was first stabbed by one of them (Amanda or RS). The idea of the prank was theirs (Amanda and RS). THey all together came up with the idea of the overkill. And Amanda and RS did the staging of the body/burglary/messing with crime scece, etc.. He probably justifies it in his mind as well, I was covering up for all 3 of us and it was just an accident, I had to cover up the accident to "save" all 3 of us.

Amanda and RS are thinking - we only stabbed her once and that was a total accident. We did not stab her more times (Rudy did). She would have died anyway, but it was becuase of an accident. Or, alternatively, Rudy actually killed her because of the overkill stab wounds to make it look like an intentional murder. So you see, we did not actually have much part in her actual killing.

Yes, you are right, they can each individually minimize their part in it.

 

[Katody]

I don't think Rudy undressed and violated Meredith. I think he did the stabbing overkill afterwards. Then he fled. Then Amanda and RS came back and did the rest of the staging. Somehow they got Rudy's DNA to make it look like rape....if he was bleeding from his cut finger, would there not be blood of his on the doorknobs, etc.?

You think they took some of Guede's blood and put in inside Meredith's vagina, on her bra and also on the purse? Do I understand you correctly?
So you think all the undressing was done with Guede already gone but Meredith still alive (aspirated blood was on her naked skin).

This is really diabolical.

They did all those manipulations leaving no evidence of themselves and they managed to preserve Guede's bloody footprints that were around the body while removing all of their own with "spot clean up". Then after perfectly cleaning all the bloody footprints in the bathroom they thought it's ok to leave one Raff's footprint on the bathmat and call it a day?

This is a very fancy scenario but to me not at all believable.

 

[quesarita]

For some strange reason, at this particular murder, it seems to be assumed that it rains DNA and that everyone that wields a knife must be covered head to toe with blood. I cannot begin to imagine where that idea originates.

That's not at all what I said or meant. The prosecution's case includes naked footprints in the hallway and AK's room that they claim to be caused by her stepping in blood, but do not indicate where she stepped in blood.

 

[otto]

Sorry, but I believe that for it to get to the extent it did (being on trial for murder), Amanda and RS were there. They could have still been there, but not done the actual stabbing (except for the accidental one), according to my theory. This would account for their actions afterwards - i.e., denying to investigators, not naming Rudy, not confessing about the prank, etc..

R u ok SMK, what happened to your eye?

Knox's DNA is on the handle, Meredith's DNA is on the blade, of the knife that the prosecution alleges caused the fatal injury. During the trial, the prosecutor left open the possibility that Meredith was shoved or fell into that knife, which also, in part, explains why it was not thrust the full 17.5 cm. into her neck. Sollecito had many knives and always carried a knife. Guede carried a knife.

Knox claims that Meredith was her "friend", but at the same time she is insistent that no one should look beyond the door of the bedroom when trying to solve her murder. Apparently, this makes sense to Knox. Personally, I think it is ridiculous. If Knox was a friend to Meredith, why would she want to prevent people from taking into consideration all the evidence at the scene of the crime?

 

[otto]

That's not at all what I said or meant. The prosecution's case includes naked footprints in the hallway and AK's room that they claim to be caused by her stepping in blood, but do not indicate where she stepped in blood.

Is it not obvious that the blood came from the dead girl in the bedroom?

 

[SMK]

The prosecution case has all three culprits involved in the murder. Absence of evidence in Meredith's bedroom, or on either side of her body, is not evidence of absence. There is evidence that more than one person was directly involved in her murder. Evidence at the crime scene implicates Rudy Guede, Amanda Knox and Raffale Sollecito.

However, it would not be surprising to learn that all three perceive that their role was minimal, and therefore that they are not responsible for the murder. Guede has already stated as much.

Right, and in response to what some have said about Knox and Sollecito being good students, with good backgrounds, etc.:

This does not preclude the human - all-too-human tendency to not want to accept responsibility . What about cases of medical malpractice where first-rate surgeons try to tell themselves and everyone else that they are not responsible : This shutting one's eyes and pretending not to see one's own part in things gone awry is universal.

 

[quesarita]

Is it not obvious that the blood came from the dead girl in the bedroom?

No, it's not obvious. They weren't able to show that it was her blood, and there's no obvious connection between the footprints in the hallway and the blood in the bedroom, and by obvious I mean at least a trace of a bare bloody footprint in the bedroom, either visible or shown by luminol or other test.

 

[Bill C]

But this brings me back to what I previously asked you about - either it is a match for Meredith's DNA or it's not? If it was not Meredith's DNA, how was it a match to Meredith's DNA?

And the reply you gave me was that no, you were arguing that Meredith's DNA got there through contamination.

So how does all of that - "MK's DNA had a single test and no available controls at least none that have ever been seen by the court or the defense. AK's DNA was tested twice and had the appropriate controls run"- support contamination?

I'm not sure how much background you have in DNA analysis, specifically low quantity DNA but in order to do that analysis one has to amplify the DNA sample many many times. In doing so one also amplifies any contamination that may have gotten into that sample. My understanding is that Steffanoni had to amplify this specimen even more than is usually done in order to find ANY identifiable peaks. The one peak she found was a match for MK's DNA. Now, running 2 separate samples during low quantity DNA analysis decreases the likelihood that the peak (s) seen are contaminants. If the DNA is real it will definitely appear in both samples. If it is contaminant it may only appear in one of the samples. Occasionally a contaminant may appear in both samples (the different equipment used to test both samples may all be contaminated). That is why controls are run. Controls are analyzed in the same manner as the samples. The controls contain NO DNA so any peak that shows up during the analysis of the controls must be considered a contaminant. In this case, if MK's DNA peak showed up in the controls, one would rightfully assume that MK's DNA peak in the sample was a contaminant. If the second sample showed a peak that matched MK's DNA and the controls were negative (did not contain MK's DNA) one then could claim with certainty that MK's DNA was on the knife

Therefore, to answer your question, yes the peak that Steffanoni identified, purportedly from the knife, matched MK's DNA profile; however, without a second test and controls no one can say with any degree of scientific certainty whether the peak came from the sample or was a contaminant. Remember, large quantities of MK's DNA were analyzed in that exact laboratory 6 days before the knife was tested to serve as a standard. Who's to say that minute quantities of that DNA were still not present in the lab and were a source of possible contamination. I would also argue that the fact that no blood was found on the knife, makes the contamination explanation more likely. If I am a defendant in a murder trial, I would expect that the tests done of important evidence used to convict me were optimally performed, performed to the Internationally accepted standard. Steffanoni's tests did not meet that criteria. Therefore, that DNA evidence should be thrown out and would have been thrown out in just about every Western justice system except apparently in Italy. Hope this explanation helps.

 

[quesarita]

Knox's DNA is on the handle, Meredith's DNA is on the blade, of the knife that the prosecution alleges caused the fatal injury. During the trial, the prosecutor left open the possibility that Meredith was shoved or fell into that knife, which also, in part, explains why it was not thrust the full 17.5 cm. into her neck. Sollecito had many knives and always carried a knife. Guede carried a knife.

Knox claims that Meredith was her "friend", but at the same time she is insistent that no one should look beyond the door of the bedroom when trying to solve her murder. Apparently, this makes sense to Knox. Personally, I think it is ridiculous. If Knox was a friend to Meredith, why would she want to prevent people from taking into consideration all the evidence at the scene of the crime?

I doubt you would accept it, but Raffaele has a simple and clear explanation in his book of why the police thought Amanda said that Meredith "always locked her door", when she in fact said the opposite, that Meredith never locked her door except when she went to London - the same thing Filomena said.

His reason was that he (Raffaele) was acting as translator between the police and Amanda, and he misunderstood her. FWIW

 

[Amber29]

I mean I don't argue that there can be false negative TMB tests for blood. But there can also be false positive luminol tests for blood. Therefore when faced with a test that is +luminol and -TMB, it is INCUMBANT to do additional tests. The fact that Steffanoni did not do those tests suggests either incompetence or a serious prosecutional bias (she interpreted the results the way the prosecution wanted her to when she had NO scientifically justifiable right to do so).

What has always been said is "tmb was negative so it wasn't blood". I simply linked a study that proves that is not a fact.

So now the argument is that PS should've done further testing?

 

[otto]

No, it's not obvious. They weren't able to show that it was her blood, and there's no obvious connection between the footprints in the hallway and the blood in the bedroom, and by obvious I mean at least a trace of a bare bloody footprint in the bedroom, either visible or shown by luminol or other test.

What other source of blood, other than the murdered woman, was there at the crime scene?

 

[aa9511]

You think they took some of Guede's blood and put in inside Meredith's vagina, on her bra and also on the purse? Do I understand you correctly?
So you think all the undressing was done with Guede already gone but Meredith still alive (aspirated blood was on her naked skin).

This is really diabolical.

They did all those manipulations leaving no evidence of themselves and they managed to preserve Guede's bloody footprints that were around the body while removing all of their own with "spot clean up". Then after perfectly cleaning all the bloody footprints in the bathroom they thought it's ok to leave one Raff's footprint on the bathmat and call it a day?

This is a very fancy scenario but to me not at all believable.

bbm

I never expected you to believe it. And I quite highly expected exactly such as a response from you. So, thank you for your input.

I myself just might believe some of it anyway, or at least I am still trying to work things out in my mind.

 

[aa9511]

You think they took some of Guede's blood and put in inside Meredith's vagina, on her bra and also on the purse? Do I understand you correctly?
So you think all the undressing was done with Guede already gone but Meredith still alive (aspirated blood was on her naked skin).

This is really diabolical.

They did all those manipulations leaving no evidence of themselves and they managed to preserve Guede's bloody footprints that were around the body while removing all of their own with "spot clean up". Then after perfectly cleaning all the bloody footprints in the bathroom they thought it's ok to leave one Raff's footprint on the bathmat and call it a day?

This is a very fancy scenario but to me not at all believable.

bbm

hmm....coming back 2 or more hours afterwards and finding her still slightly breathing....that would account for that "long, slow death" Amanda was so sure about, would it not?

 

[Katody]

Lab contamination has been ruled out, and there is no explanation for how Meredith's DNA got to Sollecito's kitchen drawer unless we accept Sollecito's lies. Contamination is impossible.

The DNA in the knife that was identified by Stefanoni is a match to Meredith's DNA.

Low Copy DNA arguments are obsolete given that the sample of Knox's DNA was smaller than the sample of Meredith's DNA, and her sample is accepted without question.

Lab contamination cannot be ruled out because there are no negative controls and no raw data allowing to see if there was residual contamination with Meredith's DNA also in other samples that underwent amplification and electrophoresis around the time of processing the knife sample.

Of course the Carabinieri were meticulous in providing negative controls and testing the sample more than once. Let's not forget they found no Meredith's DNA

All of this is rather moot for the simple fact that there was no blood on the knife. That makes it most probable Stefanoni's odd result was a contamination with PCR product, i.e. artificial DNA created in lab during testing. Second best that absolutely cannot be ruled out is contamination during all the packaging and repackaging of the knife by the cops that were at Meredith's cottage the same day they collected the knife.

To me the simple fact Amanda and Meredith lived together means any DNA that is not blood is not evidence of anything at all, that's just common sense.


Another thing is that the knife "evidence" must be taken as a whole. That means how it happened to get to the cottage and back again to the drawer, how was the wound the doesn't really match it made, how there is another knife absolutely required, how the cop plucked it by "intuition" from the drawer ( somehow they had no flashes of intuition over the drawer in the cottage that was full of sharp and pointy knives - all never tested).

How to say it? When I have common sense on one side I'd like something more convincing and less complicated and contrived on the other to sway my opinion.

 

[otto]

I doubt you would accept it, but Raffaele has a simple and clear explanation in his book of why the police thought Amanda said that Meredith "always locked her door", when she in fact said the opposite, that Meredith never locked her door except when she went to London - the same thing Filomena said.

His reason was that he (Raffaele) was acting as translator between the police and Amanda, and he misunderstood her. FWIW

Isn't that kind of Sollecito to state in a book, but not in a courtroom, that he did not translate properly. It's unfortunate for Sollecito and the American woman that Filomina and her three friends heard Knox state that Meredith normally locked her bedroom.

 

[quesarita]

What other source of blood, other than the murdered woman, was there at the crime scene?

For example, there was a bloody footprint on the bath mat, and possibly traces of blood in the shower. It seems more likely to me that someone stepped in trace amounts of blood in the bathroom and left trace amounts on the floor, than that they were able to completely eradicate more intense bloody footprints from the tile (and grout) in the bedroom, but only partially remove, or remove some of lighter footprints walking to and from the bedroom.

 

[Katody]

bbm

hmm....coming back 2 or more hours afterwards and finding her still slightly breathing....that would account for that "long, slow death" Amanda was so sure about, would it not?

I don't think you remember this correctly.

The death took minutes not hours. Asphyxiation from inhaled blood was the cause.

 

[aa9511]

No, it's not obvious. They weren't able to show that it was her blood, and there's no obvious connection between the footprints in the hallway and the blood in the bedroom, and by obvious I mean at least a trace of a bare bloody footprint in the bedroom, either visible or shown by luminol or other test.

Did they do any luminol tests INSIDE the bedroom, I mean outside of the direct vicinity around Meredith's body where the majority of the blood was? Did they do any luminol tests outside of the area of large areas of blood? (I"m really asking, this is not a hypothetical).

I would think if they did not do any luminol tests, then do we really know whta was cleaned on the outside areas of the room (inside)?

 

[quesarita]

Isn't that kind of Sollecito to state in a book, but not in a courtroom, that he did not translate properly. It's unfortunate for Sollecito and the American woman that Filomina and her three friends heard Knox state that Meredith normally locked her bedroom.

Really? I think it's quite possible that they all only heard Raffaele say what he thought she said, as they were all talking at the same time and she was the only one speaking English. I think many of the "lies" accepted as gospel in this case could have resulted in translation errors, based on the translation from Italian to English I've read (both machine and human); and sometimes from English to Italian back to English.

 

[quesarita]

Did they do any luminol tests INSIDE the bedroom, I mean outside of the direct vicinity around Meredith's body where the majority of the blood was? Did they do any luminol tests outside of the area of large areas of blood? (I"m really asking, this is not a hypothetical).

I would think if they did not do any luminol tests, then do we really know whta was cleaned on the outside areas of the room (inside)?

I have not seen any mention of luminol or other testing done inside the bedroom, which seems incredible and bizarre if their case hinged on the idea of a clean up, and multiple persons in the room where there was evidence of only one (before they went back for the bra clasp).