Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#13

[aa9511]

The defence doesn't have to say what it was once it's proven not to be blood.

The prosecutions own expert said a TMB negative means it's not blood.

Why is this so hard to understand?

It is not proven that it's not blood. Like Otto, Amber, and others have stated, TMB can come up negative after Luminol is applied, even if is blood. Its sensivity is less than that of Luminol, and also Luminol further deteriorates the matter to be tested, making it even harder for TMB to pick up.

I see now that the whole case for innocence seems to be riding on this TMB test, thus the great importance attached to it and emphasis on it.

I am surprised that as to why do the supporters of her innocence even acknowledge that those are Amanda's footprints? Why not say they are not hers? That would be much simpler, IMO.

Because it seems like everything else has been excused excused excused away, and these footprints are the only thing which cannot be excused away, therefore the constant reiterations of TMB negative, and the far-flung theories of bleach residue (managing to stay active for how long?), the beet juice, fruit juice, cat blood, etc..

These nagging footprints. Why not just deny that they are Amanda's? Why not just say they were Meredith's from before she was murdered, perhaps from earlier that day? Or is that even too far-flung for the innocence theory?

 

[MichaelSmith]

It is not proven that it's not blood. Like Otto, Amber, and others have stated, TMB can come up negative after Luminol is applied, even if is blood. Its sensivity is less than that of Luminol, and also Luminol further deteriorates the matter to be tested, making it even harder for TMB to pick up.

I see now that the whole case for innocence seems to be riding on this TMB test, thus the great importance attached to it and emphasis on it.

I am surprised that as to why do the supporters of her innocence even acknowledge that those are Amanda's footprints? Why not say they are not hers? That would be much simpler, IMO.

Because it seems like everything else has been excused excused excused away, and these footprints are the only thing which cannot be excused away, therefore the constant reiterations of TMB negative, and the far-flung theories of bleach residue (managing to stay active for how long?), the beet juice, fruit juice, cat blood, etc..

These nagging footprints. Why not just deny that they are Amanda's? Why not just say they were Meredith's from before she was murdered, perhaps from earlier that day? Or is that even too far-flung for the innocence theory?

I think I'll stick to what the scientific research says, what the experts at the trial testified and what people at the FBI serology unit have written about luminol and TMB.

I have no idea what the rest of your post is about, sorry.

 

[redheadedgal]

A cleaning agent that spilled in footprint looking tracks? What?

it's not that hard to figure out.

or maybe someone walked in a copper-rich soil...

www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/04098.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16566172

http://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0718-95162010000100005

The photograph lacks the measuring thingy for perspective.

first validity was questioned, now a "measuring thingy" is required?

 

[redheadedgal]

IMO it's been proven beyond a REASONABLE doubt....way beyond.

every piece of evidence in this case can be logically and reasonably contested (as evidenced by the threads here alone)... we're far from BARD imo.

 

[sherlockh]

it's not that hard to figure out.

or maybe someone walked in a copper-rich soil...

www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/04098.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16566172

http://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0718-95162010000100005

first validity was questioned, now a "measuring thingy" is required?

The metal in soil theory was explored by mr Halkides in the comment section at this link:
http://forensics4fiction.com/2011/05/27/luminol-the-magical-blood-reagent/
He didn't really get the answer he hoped for I believe. JMO.

 

[Linda7NJ]

it's not that hard to figure out.

or maybe someone walked in a copper-rich soil...

www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/04098.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16566172

http://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0718-95162010000100005




first validity was questioned, now a "measuring thingy" is required?

"Walked in cooper rich soil" now...that's rich!!!




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[Linda7NJ]

Linda7NJ;10166483]"Walked in cooper rich soil" now...that's rich!!!

I guess your idea of "reasonable" is far from my definition.

Anyone can reasonably argue a single piece of evidence. This crime scene doesn't contain just one piece...there is a mountain of circumstantial evidence...

The problem is, as I see it. Knox supporters have a mountain of excuses that defy logic and reason in attempt to overcome that mountain of evidence.


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[MichaelSmith]

Linda7NJ;10166483]"Walked in cooper rich soil" now...that's rich!!!

I guess your idea of "reasonable" is far from my definition.

Anyone can reasonably argue a single piece of evidence. This crime scene doesn't contain just one piece...there is a mountain of circumstantial evidence...

The problem is, as I see it. Knox supporters have a mountain of excuses that defy logic and reason in attempt to overcome that mountain of evidence.

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The only evidence directly linking them to a murder conspiracy with the unemployed criminal Rudy Guede who they didn't know is the DNA and the homeless heroin junkie high on heroin the night of the murder.

He's worthless and the DNA was junk science = innocent. The rest is conjecture, fantasy and conspiracy theory.

 

[Linda7NJ]

The only evidence directly linking them to a murder conspiracy with the unemployed criminal Rudy Guede who they didn't know is the DNA and the homeless heroin junkie high on heroin the night of the murder.



He's worthless and the DNA was junk science = innocent. The rest is conjecture, fantasy and conspiracy theory.

You forgot all the lies told. The lies and contradictions can't easily be explained away. Those require yet another round of twisting and contorting.

Insurmountable ....pointing to an innocent man. That's not the act of a false "confession" that's a run of the mill criminal move. All the "ever evolving stories" of what they did that night...ridiculous.

Seems to me.....the TRUTH and AMANDA are strangers.


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[MichaelSmith]

You forgot all the lies told. The lies and contradictions can't easily be explained away. Those require yet another round of twisting and contorting.

Insurmountable ....pointing to an innocent man. That's not the act of a false "confession" that's a run of the mill criminal move. All the "ever evolving stories" of what they did that night...ridiculous.

Seems to me.....the TRUTH and AMANDA are strangers.


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What lies? What confession? Do you mean the false witness statement signed in the middle of the night without lawyers? What evolving story?

All I see is a two students manipulated in the middle of the night by officers from the SCO who are trained to deal with mobsters.

 

[Linda7NJ]

What lies? What confession? Do you mean the false witness statement signed in the middle of the night without lawyers? What evolving story?



All I see is a two students manipulated in the middle of the night by officers from the SCO who are trained to deal with mobsters.

Awww yes, poor stupid kids beaten and brutalized and duped into mutable versions. Of course. That must be it.
And the FOG we mustn't forget that "fog"
Fogs and hazes seem to occur an awful lot with murder suspects. Must be a genetic condition linked directly to lips that can't control themselves and lie.




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[MichaelSmith]

Awww yes, poor stupid kids beaten and brutalized and duped into mutable versions. Of course. That must be it.
And the FOG we mustn't forget that "fog"
Fogs and hazes seem to occur an awful lot with murder suspects. Must be a genetic condition linked directly to lips that can't control themselves and lie.

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I don't know what you're talking about? What fog?

 

[Linda7NJ]

I don't know what you're talking about? What fog?

I can't remember...

You know the fog that prevented Amanda from accurately detailing her movements.


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[MichaelSmith]

I can't remember...

You know the fog that prevented Amanda from accurately detailing her movements.

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No I don't know about any 'fog'.

 

[otto]

I guess the Court did not realize that some people would not take as a given that those prints are made in blood. :facepalm:

If, at least on select parts of the internet, the footprints being from the blood is in question, then the smaller footprint on the pillowcase would leave NO DOUBT that there was at least one (1) other person other than Rudy at the scene.

So let me understand this: So they think that Rudy stepped on it once, but then when he stepped on it again, the fabric was folded and that's why the second print is shorter?

That's correct. There are a few prints from Guede on the pillow that are the correct length for Guede's foot, and one print that is the correct length for Knox's foot. In order to eliminate evidence implicating Knox, the story is that the pillow case became folded for one of Guede's prints and that's why it is the correct length for Knox's foot.

 

[otto]

I have never understood where Amanda's foot print is on the pillow. I am confused as Vinci addressed all the shoe prints. Was she also supposedly wearing Nike Outbreak 2 shoes?

She was wearing Adidas shoes. Vinci is a defense witness, so his job is to provide an alternate explanation to the shoe print that is compatible with Knox's shoe size.

 

[MichaelSmith]

She was wearing Adidas shoes. Vinci is a defense witness, so his job is to provide an alternate explanation to the shoe print that is compatible with Knox's shoe size.

Have you ever researched his qualifications? What's your opinion? Do you know about the cases he'd worked on previously? Is he discredited? How so?

Have you come across any errors in the 130 plus research papers he has authored or any mis-conduct on cases he's worked on?

 

[otto]

every piece of evidence in this case can be logically and reasonably contested (as evidenced by the threads here alone)... we're far from BARD imo.

There is a mountain of evidence, and if each piece of evidence in that moutain is given it's own unique explanation, it can all be explained. However, it is important to view the evidence as a totality. If it can all be explained with one clear statement, such as "I was in another country at the time of the murder", then it works. That's not the case here. Instead, there are as many explanations as there are pieces of evidence, and that ultimately suggests that the explanations are more along the lines of excuses.

For example:

• Knox bloody footprints: not blood
• Sollecito's bloody print: reshape with photoshop and it belongs to Guede
• Knox shoe print on pillow case: fabric was folded only when Guede made that print, not folded for other pillow prints
• DNA on clasp: contamination in the cottage
• Meredith's DNA on knife: contamination in lab, or pricked with knife during imaginery dinner party
• Knox DNA on knife: she cooked for Sollecito, but they both said that he cooked for her
• Staged broken window: not staged, witnesses are confused
• Shifting alibi times: too stoned to remember
• Illogical behavior: the Amelie syndrome
• Failure to immediately contact police: police are confused
• Statement that Meredith routinely locked her bedroom: 6 witnesses misunderstood
• Phone call to mother before anything happened: doesn't remember making the call
• False accusation: police forced Knox to produce Patrick's name and blame him after approx. 1 hour of torture
• Confirmation of false accusations in two separate voluntary statements: unknown
• Failure to admit false accusation to authorities: unknown
• Lamp in Meredith's bedroom: Meredith put it there
• Sollecito DNA on Meredith's bra: Meredith shared underwear with Knox even though there was conflict between them

The list goes on ... and on and on.

 

[sherlockh]

Have you ever researched his qualifications? What's your opinion? Do you know about the cases he'd worked on previously? Is he discredited? How so?

Have you come across any errors in the 130 plus research papers he has authored or any mis-conduct on cases he's worked on?

I think he did the best he could, but a defense expert would never say that for example the bathmat print belongs to his client or else they will find somebody else. However, he did help convince the judges that the bathmat footprint belonged to Sollecito (by using the Crimescope). He simply couldn't do the impossible IMO.

Massei report

Finally, there is a piece of data which the Court has uncontrovertibly adopted: the same images of the bathmat, shown in deepened colours by the lighting equipment of the Crimescope, do actually increase the impression of solidity of the size of the big toe (and also of the metatarsus), and augment the perception of the unity with the rest of the small mark whose detachment was suggested.

The consequence is that the Court does not hold as practicable the alternative version aimed at confuting or undermining the judgement of probable identity formulated by the Scientific Police, which instead finds itself strengthened.

 

[SMK]

There is a mountain of evidence, and if each piece of evidence in that moutain is given it's own unique explanation, it can all be explained. However, it is important to view the evidence as a totality. If it can all be explained with one clear statement, such as "I was in another country at the time of the murder", then it works. That's not the case here. Instead, there are as many explanations as there are pieces of evidence, and that ultimately suggests that the explanations are more along the lines of excuses.

For example:

Knox bloody footprints: not blood
Sollecito's bloody print: reshape with photoshop and it belongs to Guede
Knox shoe print on pillow case: fabric was folded only when Guede made that print, not folded for other prints
DNA on clasp: contamination in the cottage
Meredith's DNA on knife: contamination in lab
Knox DNA on knife: she cooked for Sollecito
Staged broken window: not staged, wintesses are confused
Shifting alibi times: too stoned to remember
Illogical behavior: the Amelie syndrome
Failure to immediately contact police: police are confused
Statement that Meredith routinely locked her bedroom: 6 witnesses misunderstood
Phone call to mother before anything happened: don't remember making the call
False accusation: police forced Knox to produce Patrick's name and blame him
Confirmation of false accusations in two separate voluntary statements: unknown
Failure to admit false accusation to authorities: unknown
Lamp in Meredith's bedroom: Meredith put it there
Sollecito DNA on Meredith's bra: Meredith shared underwear

The list goes on ... and on and on.

Otto,

Thanks for your list:

Simply for my own reference, I wanted to add different things which bothered me to this list,

(albeit some circumstantial) and their dismissal:

1. Knox bloody footprints: not blood
2. Sollecito's bloody print: reshape with photoshop and it belongs to Guede
3. Knox shoe print on pillow case: fabric was folded only when Guede made that print, not folded for other prints
4. DNA on clasp: contamination in the cottage
5. Meredith's DNA on knife: contamination in lab
6. Knox DNA on knife: she cooked for Sollecito
7. Staged broken window: not staged, wintesses are confused
8. Shifting alibi times: too stoned to remember
9. Illogical behavior: the Amelie syndrome
10. Failure to immediately contact police: police are confused
11. Statement that Meredith routinely locked her bedroom: 6 witnesses misunderstood
12. Phone call to mother before anything happened: don't remember making the call
13. False accusation: police forced Knox to produce Patrick's name and blame him
14. Confirmation of false accusations in two separate voluntary statements: unknown
15. Failure to admit false accusation to authorities: unknown
16. Lamp in Meredith's bedroom: Meredith put it there
17. Sollecito DNA on Meredith's bra: Meredith shared underwear
18. (circumstantial, psychological) College prank fits staging; Burleigh's account of Knox using pranking as a psychological strategy and of identifying more with males than females; Halloween weekend as time for pranks: deemed irrelevant
19. Knox knowing Rudy from downstairs; Rudy being a known drug dealer who lives 1 minute's walk from Sollecito's apartment , and a frequenter of the basketball courts on the way to the cottage; Sollecito and Knox involvement with drugs: deemed irrelevant
20. 112 calls made after Postal Police arrived: Postal Police are wrong about times
22. Amanda's walking with mop story for morning of Nov 2; shop owner Quintavalle as witness, and other witnesses: Deemed irrelevant
24. Investigators' intuition about locked door and duvet pointing toward the involvement of a female perpetrator before they had seen Knox : deemed irrelevent
25. Overcalling on the morning of Nov 2 (to sister, mother, Filomena) and acknowledged statistically to be a classic sign of crime scene staging: deemed irrelevant
26. Email home: It's oddities and contradictions noted by statement analysis:ignored
27. bathmat shuffle : ignored
28. First Postal Police Officer Battistelli's uttering of "staged" before any murder had been discovered: irrelevant
29. Raffaele's attempt to kick down the door but later no concern over door when Postal Police arrive: ignored