Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL* #2

[Nova]

Otto, in one of her statements she also said that one of the things that she and RS supposedly talked about that night when they were supposedly at his place the whole night......was about high school and how he was unpopular in school and so was she. I think it's one of those Jodi Arias-type things, where females can just sense in other females that there is something wrong with this girl.

So did ALL the unpopular boys and girls in Perugia kill Ms. Kircher, or just these two?

 

[Nova]

bbm


But actually the "behavioral data" points towards their guilt. This point is not debatable because it obviously does, from the "false" confessions to the changing of stories to the accusing an innocent man and on to the less significant things like cartwheels, etc..

So I don't see how you can say the behavioral data points towards their innocence? Now whether one chooses to believe that data or not is the question I suppose.....I suppose we could say the whole case is fiction and that Meredith never really died?

Sorry, but I don't know what you mean: cartwheels are proof of nothing (unless you or Perugia LE can produce some data). AK sat around a lot for five days and then she did some stretching. So?

Most of the other supposed "behavioral evidence" (such as the buying of the bleach) has turned out to be untrue.

The OP's point was that AK and RS aren't accused of killing someone for her money or to settle a grudge; they are accused of participating in a satanic (small s) orgy of sex and violence. That's an extraordinary event and buying underwear is not proof of participation.

 

[Nova]

Nova, see what it feels like to personalize posts? Because you do it to others a lot.

With respect, I don't believe I've ever questioned anyone's claim of what they do in real life. I always take such claims at face value, knowing they can't be proven without revealing one's true identity.

If I made some extraordinary claim relevant to the case--such as claiming to be AK's attorney--then some offer of proof might be demanded. But that's hardly what I claimed; I merely I said I have a lot of experience of creative writing from kids the age of Amanda Knox.

 

[Nova]

I'd like to hear from both sides on this. This has been a sticking point towards innocence for me. If guilty, why did RS never roll on AK? He was offered a plea deal. He could have testified against Amanda and received a much lighter sentence, but he never budged.

Are you sure, Snoods? I'm probably wrong but I thought Italy doesn't have "plea deals" in the sense we use the term here in the States. Rudy Guede got a reduced sentence for pleading guilty and saving the Court the cost of a trial, but (in theory) not because he ratted on AK and RS.

In any event, I hope you won't hesitate to express opinions and ask questions. You can see I've been under fire, but, honestly, it ain't so bad.

 

[Nova]

What length of time passed between AK dropping her blood on the murder weapon and it being used for the murder?

I'm not convinced AK's blood is on the knife and I'm reasonably positive the knife isn't the murder weapon, but you know the saying: neither DNA nor blood typing can give you a day or time.

 

[otto]

It's interesting that you say this because this has been a major factor in my thinking about the case - the extent to which we can rely on purely 'scientific' evidence as opposed to looking at how the various human beings in this case behaved and how their behaviour fits with our own experience and intuition. As a scientist I have a healthy skepticism about the reliability of any and all scientific data.

To me the one piece of evidence that points to guilt is the DNA match for Meredith on the knife in Sollecito's apartment. There are however significant scientific issues even with that data.

On the other hand for all of the attempts to microanalyze the behavior of Knox and Sollecito over the years for me there is absolutely nothing that stands up as evidence of their involvement in the death of Meredith. Either people are way overanalyzing their behavior and seeing conciousness of guilt that isn't there OR the evidence is based on things said or done by Knox and Sollecito under conditions of extreme stress. We know based on both scientific studies and anecdotal evidence that well-meaning innocent people can give false confessions and misleading information to police.

At the same time, my intuition and my experience tell me that it would be extremely unusual for them to have been involved in the murder. Scientists like to say "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." To me the claim that Knox and Sollecito committed or participated in this murder is an extraordinary claim. I've yet to hear a convincing "story" to explain to me how and more importantly why they got involved in the death of Meredith. THis is especially true given that there is a simple explanation, consistent with typical human experience, for who killed Meredith. It is absolutely not necessary to invoke the extraordinary.

For me the "behavioral" data pointing towards innocence greatly outweighs the weak "scientific" data pointing towards guilt.

BBM

What significant issues do you see with Meredith's DNA sample on the knife?

Factors I'm aware of:

1. LCN aspect: in 2007, the DNA was considered to be too small to test. That is, it was identified as low copy number. Today, with testing that is able to better amplify DNA and "Xerox for reproduction", that sample would no longer be considered to be too small. That hurdle has been removed through science. Additionally, all scientists that have analyzed the sample have concluded that it is a match for Meredith's DNA.

2. Contamination aspect: although contamination is alleged regarding all DNA that implicates Knox and Sollecito, a scientist can see the obvious problems in the probability that all DNA implicating two of the culprits is tainted, and all DNA implicating the third culprit is not tainted. That is pretty much impossible. Furthermore, although Conti and Vecchiotti did not rule out contamination, they agreed that all protocols were followed and they were unable to present a single scenario where contamination could have occurred.

 

[otto]

Otto, in one of her statements she also said that one of the things that she and RS supposedly talked about that night when they were supposedly at his place the whole night......was about high school and how he was unpopular in school and so was she. I think it's one of those Jodi Arias-type things, where females can just sense in other females that there is something wrong with this girl.

Absolutely. Meredith's friends described Knox as behaving very oddly ... so odd, she made them feel uncomfortable.

"“Amanda arrived only a week ago and she already has a boyfriend,” Meredith dryly informed her father, John Kercher, a freelance journalist who often works for the daily Mirror. Actually, Meredith told her tight circle of British friends, Amanda had acquired several boyfriends in succession.

This was by no means Meredith’s only complaint. There are rumors of anger over the rent money, and she found Amanda sloppy about her personal habits. Meredith’s close friends also found Amanda a bit odd. “Amanda’s behavior always struck me as strange,” one of these friends would later tell police. “The first time I met her we were eating in a restaurant, when all of a sudden she began to sing in a loud voice. It was very strange and out of place.”

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2008/06/perugia200806

 

[Sonata]

Perhaps it would be helpful to focus on the point of the discussion. I understood your point to be that it is normal and common for 18-22 year olds to be pre-occupied with drugs and rape. Amanda Knox is an example of someone with those pre-occupations (evidenced by her writings prior to her story about Meredith's murder). I completely disagree. My experience with that age group is that 18-22 year olds are often pre-occupied with getting rich and famous quick, and saving the world. I am of the opinion that anyone in that age group that is pre-occupied with drugs and rape should be closely monitored, as it is not normal or healthy for a 20 year old male to be overly interested in drugs and rape - to the extent that it consumes their creative thoughts and writings. The same is true of a female in that age group.

There is a clarification that I feel needs to be made here which is that there is a big difference between a precoccupation with rape that involves wanting to participate, and one that involves fear of and perhaps an element of curiosity about rape. Those two are not the same at all. And I do not think that writing about a rape is indicative of either one.

When I was that age, I was terrified of violent crime, and a lot of my poetry was either about suicide or murder. That is now worlds away, but man, looking back, I was dark!

 

[Sonata]

Absolutely. Meredith's friends described Knox as behaving very oddly ... so odd, she made them feel uncomfortable.

"“Amanda arrived only a week ago and she already has a boyfriend,” Meredith dryly informed her father, John Kercher, a freelance journalist who often works for the daily Mirror. Actually, Meredith told her tight circle of British friends, Amanda had acquired several boyfriends in succession.

This was by no means Meredith’s only complaint. There are rumors of anger over the rent money, and she found Amanda sloppy about her personal habits. Meredith’s close friends also found Amanda a bit odd. “Amanda’s behavior always struck me as strange,” one of these friends would later tell police. “The first time I met her we were eating in a restaurant, when all of a sudden she began to sing in a loud voice. It was very strange and out of place.”

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2008/06/perugia200806

Still, those things do not a murderer make.

Again, I can relate to this. I used to do things like that all the time (minus the boyfriends) and I'm sorry to have to tell you that it is not a measure of violent potential. It's just an attitude thing.

Then people wonder why AK seems stilted and stiff in interviews and how odd it is and how she must be lying. It's because she's covering up that side of herself and with good reason - look at the judgments!

 

[otto]

With respect, I don't believe I've ever questioned anyone's claim of what they do in real life. I always take such claims at face value, knowing they can't be proven without revealing one's true identity.

If I made some extraordinary claim relevant to the case--such as claiming to be AK's attorney--then some offer of proof might be demanded. But that's hardly what I claimed; I merely I said I have a lot of experience of creative writing from kids the age of Amanda Knox.

When claiming to have an area of expertise, such as a professor or lawyer, it helps to be verified. It's a simple process here at Websleuths.

That would clear up any question regarding the validity of claims such as "I have 15 years experience teaching post-secondary students and, according to research studies A, B and C, it is a fact that normal, healthy 18-22 year olds are pre-occupied with drugs and rape."


Verification would also offer insights into a claim of, for example, having taught post secondary students in the 1980s or 1990s, and stating that personal experience with those students is that they were pre-occupied with drugs and rape because of violent online games that we know were not developed until 2000 or 2005.

 

[MaybeNotToday]

"in the meantime" can mean "before the carabinieri arrived" as well as "before I made the call".

This cherry-picking of partial phrases out of context gets really tiresome. From now on, I'm going to resist the impulse to correct each and every distortion of the record.

It seems to be a theme running through many cases IMO.

 

[otto]

Still, those things do not a murderer make.

Again, I can relate to this. I used to do things like that all the time (minus the boyfriends) and I'm sorry to have to tell you that it is not a measure of violent potential. It's just an attitude thing.

Then people wonder why AK seems stilted and stiff in interviews and how odd it is and how she must be lying. It's because she's covering up that side of herself and with good reason - look at the judgments!

Regarding whether Meredith's friends could sense that something was "off" with Knox, I think they could. Where I come from, if someone were to suddenly start singing loudly in the middle of a restaurant during dinner, that would result in everyone wanting to keep an eye on the odd person. I'm sure that many are prepared to debate that because Knox did it, it is completely normal, but it isn't. Just like flipping cartwheels at a police station during a murder investigation ... because Knox did it, people claim that it is completely normal, but it isn't.

 

[Sonata]

Regarding whether Meredith's friends could sense that something was "off" with Knox, I think they could. Where I come from, if someone were to suddenly start singing loudly in the middle of a restaurant during dinner, that would result in everyone wanting to keep an eye on the odd person. I'm sure that many are prepared to debate that because Knox did it, it is completely normal, but it isn't. Just like flipping cartwheels at a police station during a murder investigation ... because Knox did it, people claim that it is completely normal, but it isn't.

You are absolutely right in your example. Where I disagree is that people say it is normal because it is Knox (actually most people are saying it's an indicator of guilt). I don't think it's a common thing to do, but I don't think it's anything related to potential to become a murderer.

As I said, I used to do stuff like this. For me, it was about having an identity as the weird one that I wanted to uphold, and also if I'm honest probably about attention. I have no idea if this is true for Knox, though I think it might be the case given that she seems attached to the identity of being a bit outside of things.

Pure speculation of course, but this is why I don't think the behavioural elements make a convincing argument.

 

[otto]

You are absolutely right in your example. Where I disagree is that people say it is normal because it is Knox (actually most people are saying it's an indicator of guilt). I don't think it's a common thing to do, but I don't think it's anything related to potential to become a murderer.

As I said, I used to do stuff like this. For me, it was about having an identity as the weird one that I wanted to uphold, and also if I'm honest probably about attention. I have no idea if this is true for Knox, though I think it might be the case given that she seems attached to the identity of being a bit outside of things.

Pure speculation of course, but this is why I don't think the behavioural elements make a convincing argument.

Looking at behavior, it is not the antisocial behavior in a restaurant or a police station that implies murder, it is claims of drug and alcohol abuse to the extent that the memory is supposedly vacant, repeatedly lying to police during a murder investigation, falsely implicating an innocent man, claiming police forced the false allegation yet making no effort to tell police in clear, unambiguous terms, that she lied about Patrick, appearing cheerful and flirting in the lingerie department while purchasing two thongs the day after the murder, being cheered up by learning how to swear in Italian at the police station, going for a leisurely lunch after discovering a murder scene, and so on. Those are the behavioral issues that are completely inconsistent with what one would expect from the "friend" and roommate of a murder victim.

 

[whoanellie]

On the other hand, what do you make of the camp who believe (such as on TJMK site, whose posters include attorneys, and other educated individuals) that there is more than enough scientific proof to convict?

I've looked at that site and my impression is that it contains very impassioned arguments for Amanda and Rafaelle being guilty. Overall the site semms (to me) to be "preaching to the choir" rather than trying to present objective arguments for guilt. The discussions of the scientific evidence on that site strike me as being weak.

 

[whoanellie]

bbm


But actually the "behavioral data" points towards their guilt. This point is not debatable because it obviously does, from the "false" confessions to the changing of stories to the accusing an innocent man and on to the less significant things like cartwheels, etc..

So I don't see how you can say the behavioral data points towards their innocence? Now whether one chooses to believe that data or not is the question I suppose.....I suppose we could say the whole case is fiction and that Meredith never really died?

I don't think there is much within the realm of human behavior that isn't debatable at some level and right now I can't think of anything regarding this case that isn't debatable.We will just have to disagree on this.

 

[MaybeNotToday]

Otto, in one of her statements she also said that one of the things that she and RS supposedly talked about that night when they were supposedly at his place the whole night......was about high school and how he was unpopular in school and so was she. I think it's one of those Jodi Arias-type things, where females can just sense in other females that there is something wrong with this girl.

Wow. As a fellow unpopular in secondary school kind of girl, that is a scary idea to me.

I don't think you can go by that at all. There are many reasons why someone is outcast in school. I think murderous nature is probably one of the less frequent.

As I suffered through an awkward adolescence, I have a little experience with this "unpopularity" phenomenon. My sense of self was undefined and my body was late to bloom. Awkward! However, by the time I was Amanda's age, I too was a fox . And watch out world for the nerd undergoing metamorphosis!

However, while we enjoy our newfound popularity, we always are mindful of our past feelings of inadequacy. We like to bond with others that went through the same thing. It's not an indication "something is off". In fact, one could argue it makes for a well rounded adult.

 

[otto]

As I suffered through an awkward adolescence, I have a little experience with this "unpopularity" phenomenon. My sense of self was undefined and my body was late to bloom. Awkward! However, by the time I was Amanda's age, I too was a fox . And watch out world for the nerd undergoing metamorphosis!

However, while we enjoy our newfound popularity, we always are mindful of our past feelings of inadequacy. We like to bond with others that went through the same thing. It's not an indication "something is off". In fact, one could argue it makes for a well rounded adult.

One would hope that even the adult that was an awkward teenager would understand the seriousness of a murdered "friend", and would pull it together to demonstrate something of the "well rounded adult" during a murder investigation. Knox's reaction to the murder of a "friend" was clearly not well rounded by any stretch of the imagination. Keep in mind, we're talking about a woman that was sticking out her tongue for her boyfriend, sitting on his lap and writing thoughts about wanting to kill for a pizza while stating that her "friend" "f-ing bled to death" immediately after the murder was discovered. Awkward or not, that's not well rounded.

 

[whoanellie]

BBM

What significant issues do you see with Meredith's DNA sample on the knife?

Factors I'm aware of:

1. LCN aspect: in 2007, the DNA was considered to be too small to test. That is, it was identified as low copy number. Today, with testing that is able to better amplify DNA and "Xerox for reproduction", that sample would no longer be considered to be too small. That hurdle has been removed through science. Additionally, all scientists that have analyzed the sample have concluded that it is a match for Meredith's DNA.

2. Contamination aspect: although contamination is alleged regarding all DNA that implicates Knox and Sollecito, a scientist can see the obvious problems in the probability that all DNA implicating two of the culprits is tainted, and all DNA implicating the third culprit is not tainted. That is pretty much impossible. Furthermore, although Conti and Vecchiotti did not rule out contamination, they agreed that all protocols were followed and they were unable to present a single scenario where contamination could have occurred.

Using PCR incredibly small amounts of DNA can be amplified for further testing. As I understand it the main issue isn't whether there was enough DNA to do the test, the issue is was the amount of DNA so small as to raise serious questions of contamination and secondary/tertiary transfer. This is particularily true given that there was - to my understanding - no blood or other human tissue found on the knife.

The high sensitivity of the forensic DNA testing actually increases the chance that random extraneous DNA will be amplified and identified. Outliers are fact of life in most areas of science.

You raise a very good question about why the DNA results for Guede would be more reliable than those for Knox or Sollecito. I haven't seen any of the data but I wonder if the answer may lie in the relative amounts of DNA found from each of them. That's the 1st place I would look for answers to that question.

 

[MaybeNotToday]

One would hope that even the adult that was an awkward teenager would understand the seriousness of a murdered "friend", and would pull it together to demonstrate something of the "well rounded adult" during a murder investigation. Knox's reaction to the murder of a "friend" was clearly not well rounded by any stretch of the imagination. Keep in mind, we're talking about a woman that was sticking out her tongue for her boyfriend, sitting on his lap and writing thoughts about wanting to kill for a pizza while stating that her "friend" "f-ing bled to death" immediately after the murder was discovered. Awkward or not, that's not well rounded.

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear that I was responding to this post:

Otto, in one of her statements she also said that one of the things that she and RS supposedly talked about that night when they were supposedly at his place the whole night......was about high school and how he was unpopular in school and so was she. I think it's one of those Jodi Arias-type things, where females can just sense in other females that there is something wrong with this girl.