Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL* #2

[Nova]

bbm

Nova, to be honest, I think....I have to put this politically correct way.....that those who support the belief of AK and RS's innocence in this case and those who support the belief of AK and RS's guilt in this case are pretty equal in numbers on here.
So you can see how any one of us could feel the same sentiment you expressed at some point or another.

It used to be more balanced. Some of the key supporters of AK and RS have (given up, I assume, and) moved on.

I hope it was clear I wasn't complaining. I don't think I need to prove everything I've done for a living, but as a rule I don't feel abused.

 

[Nova]

Thank you Otto! Your post said it perfectly.

If 1 out of 1000 people do something, I would not put it in the "normal" category.

Should the other 999 people change their accepted "norm" and take on the 1 person's "norm"? That does not make sense.

I am not saying that because she did this odd behavior or that odd behavior, that she is a murderer. Rather, I am trying to look at this case as a WHOLE. I don't think anyone is saying that just because she did this ONE thing, that makes her a murderer. Someone earlier claimed that everyone is taking everything out of context, however sometimes my words or someone else's words might be taken out of context, too. It's everything together, in a combination. I do not conclude anything from looking at one specific datapoint, irrespective of all others, and irrespective of the circumstances of the case.

I basically agree, but I must add that if someone is accused of an extraordinary act (such as murder), that very accusation is going to affect our perception: we are going to tend to find their past and present behavior "abnormal".

And though some posters like to make lists of AK's alleged "oddities", the claims listed come from many sources and don't represent anyone's coherent impression of the subject.

 

[Nova]

Camera, jewelry and laptops that were not stolen is proof that burglary wasn't very important to the burglar. 43 injuries to the victim suggests that something other than burglary was behind the murder.

Or proof that the burglary was interrupted.

 

[Amber29]

We have excellent evidence for a burglary interrupted.

I think we have excellent evidence of a staged break in. Not only that but Amanda's story of the condition of the house and actions the following morning don't make sense. Too many lies and inconsistencies.

 

[Nova]

Me, too: My family has never been involved in anything approaching murder, but when it comes to inappropriate, jaw-droppingly callous remarks, uttered at funerals and weddings and birthday dinners, mine out-Amanda Amanda any day.

My mother once screamed at me that we couldn't have a funeral for my brother because his body would be contagious and have to be cremated immediately!

The kicker? My brother was still very much alive (though ill with AIDS) and was sitting next to our mother at the time. (He turned the palest shade I've ever seen from a living human being.)

Did my mother murder my brother? No, she cared for him lovingly until his eventual death. But she has never learned to handle tragedy with grace.

 

[Nova]

Sonata, I completely agree. However, that kind of collective sharing of ideas and experiences and viewpoints is not happening on this thread. This is not exactly a "kumbayah" thread (spelling horribly wrong, I'm sure!). Whenever I say something like, IMO an innocent person wouldn't do this, or IMO a guilty person wouldn't do this, my view is automatically discounted by essentially this: Well, you cannot be inside Amanda's head and know the exact thoughts she thought, so you are wrong. Well, in that case, none of us can speak about anything, because none of us can go inside each other's heads and see the world from that person's viewpoint, IYKWIM.

Yet it's ok, on the other hand, for some to say Amanda was "pressured" and "coerced" when she gave her statement. So it's ok for them to go into Amanda's head then and try to say what she felt like. And it's ok for them to try to imagine what someone would do in that situation, but it's not ok for me to imagine what I think someone would do in that situation. I'm automatically wrong, because I"m trying to go into Amanda's head, and I apparently can't do that even though everyone else can.

It's okay for everyone else to discount all of Amanda's odd behaviors by going into her head and trying to see things from her point of view, however, as usual, it's wrong for me to do the same. Only because I come up with a different idea of why she was displaying those odd behaviors.

So the "different views" and the "exploring our views" and trying to come out of our own perspective needs to go both ways.

I don't feel like my views are appreciated on here, honestly.

Double A, please remember how many years some of us have been discussing this case here. Not because it makes our views more credible than yours, but only because we have argued so many different topics before, we don't always react when we see certain subjects again (or we already have our response prepared because we've used it before).

To be clear: this is in no way to suggest I know the case better than you. In fact, I suspect the opposite is the case; I've forgotten much that I used to know. I'm just saying I don't always argue everything, but that doesn't indicate any disrespect for you.

 

[SMK]

My mother once screamed at me that we couldn't have a funeral for my brother because his body would be contagious and have to be cremated immediately!

The kicker? My brother was still very much alive (though ill with AIDS) and was sitting next to our mother at the time. (He turned the palest shade I've ever seen from a living human being.)

Did my mother murder my brother? No, she cared for him lovingly until his eventual death. But she has never learned to handle tragedy with grace.

Your poor brother, Nova But I am assuming at his core he knew she loved him, and was just being her odd self, as you say, no grace under pressure. Very typical of my family, too. I am so sorry about your brother.

 

[otto]

So was there something about Amanda that Meredith and her friends just didn't like? That certainly seems to be the case according to Meredith and her friends, and Meredith's father.

 

[otto]

Well, then, let's try another angle. You claim AK's writing is proof of something.

Prove it.

While we're at it, you claim her sloppy housekeeping is somehow relevant.

Prove it.

(BTW, violent video games were in arcades as far back as the 1980s, IIRC. But I believe I referred to what students see in TV and movies. I KNOW those media existed even when I was a kid in the 1960s.)

Sure. I do see Knox's pre-occupation with "creative" writings about drugging and raping, which continued after her incarceration, as abnormal.

I'm not sure what you want proved. As I've said, I believe that if an 18-22 year old adult is pre-occupied with drugs and rape, the adult should be monitored. I would never think "hey, that's youth, no problem." Read about Jessica Ridgeway and tell me that it is normal and acceptable for a youth or young adult to be pre-occupied with rape and drugs.

 

[otto]

Or proof that the burglary was interrupted.

Is the theory that a burglar threw a rock through Filomina's bedroom window, scaled the shear wall, climbed in the window ... remember, he's a burglar ... ignored Filomina's laptop, ignored the jewelry in the top drawer of the desk, yanked some clothes from the closet (threw them on the floor) and proceeded down the hall, past Knox's bedroom, to the primary target: Meredith's rent money and cell phones?

Does that seems far fetched?

 

[song22]

Sure. I do see Knox's pre-occupation with "creative" writings about drugging and raping, which continued after her incarceration, as abnormal.

I'm not sure what you want proved. As I've said, I believe that if an 18-22 year old adult is pre-occupied with drugs and rape, the adult should be monitored. I would never think "hey, that's youth, no problem." Read about Jessica Ridgeway and tell me that it is normal and acceptable for a youth or young adult to be pre-occupied with rape and drugs.

I have also taught creative writing for many years! I'm a poet and Iowa Writers' Workshop grad. I think it's a very common idea that people have that young writers typically write about violence. I've taught at the University level for a long time, both undergraduate and graduate students. It's really rare, actually, for me to get pieces that are gratuitous/graphic. When I do, it is a definite red flag for me as a teacher to keep an eye on the student. One student was obsessed with sexual violence and had substance abuse issues. One was just misogynist. If the piece has some kind of redemptive thread in it, fine. I have never taught playwriting/screenwriting, though, and that could certainly be different!

But actually, in your comment about "anyone can claim to be a teacher.." I interpreted that to mean that you could ask several creative writing teachers and they might all have different answers about whether it's normal for young people to write about rape and violence. I didn't read it to mean that one might be lying.

I agree with folks that being strange, quirky, odd etc doesn't make one a murderer. I originally thought that AK was just weird, maybe kind of narcissistic, but not guilty of murder. But I also believe that many of us want to be so open and tolerant toward difference that we sometimes do dismiss red flags too easily. I've had a lot of really weird friends and acquaintances in my life. I overlooked a lot of "quirks". Looking back, I now believe some of those people were actually pretty bad people. Some of their behavior I recognize now as pathological and not just creative.

Anyway, just my two cents!

 

[aa9511]

Double A, please remember how many years some of us have been discussing this case here. Not because it makes our views more credible than yours, but only because we have argued so many different topics before, we don't always react when we see certain subjects again (or we already have our response prepared because we've used it before).

To be clear: this is in no way to suggest I know the case better than you. In fact, I suspect the opposite is the case; I've forgotten much that I used to know. I'm just saying I don't always argue everything, but that doesn't indicate any disrespect for you.

Thanks, Nova. I had a little frustration there, as you can see. Yes, I do need to remember that you all have been at this for a long time....I do forget that.

I appreciate what you said. I think it's best for everyone to please keep an open mind and sometimes you can agree with someone on one thing even if you don't agree with them on another (not saying you personally, "you" generally). I have noticed that whatever I say, even if it's something we can all generally agree on, people "argue" with me over it. So that makes me think that they are not really "hearing" what I'm saying, just automatically trying to find things "wrong" with what I say because maybe they don't agree with something else I said previously. That's why I tend to bring up the point that we can make anything in this world debatable, but that's not the point.

We have to find some middle ground if we are going to keep a sense of respect on here. Otherwise we will be on "opposite" sides constantly going back and forth, back and forth over every little thing and in the end going nowhere. (Again, I mean "we" as in the collective we on this thread). I am going to try and I hope others will too.

 

[aa9511]

This comment really hit home with me. I had never before questioned why she didn't say exactly what you suggest:

"I'm innocent and I'm an American citizen, I want to speak to my embassy!"

She seems brash and arrogant enough (we saw that in the courtroom) to say that, if it worked for her. Why didn't she say that? It seems like Mom got the embassy involved right away ... but of course, it was too late for that by the time Eda arrived in Perugia.

The way Amanda describes it is that they told her she might not see her family for 30 years (I guess if she didn't talk?)....so I don't know, in theory she could have thought she was going to be locked up and not given the chance for the Embassy people to come help her? Or maybe she didn't think about the Embassy, but having travelled to different countries before, I would think she would be somewhat knowledgable about something like that.

Again, that is what Amanda says. I do not know what the truth is.

But even giving her the benefit of doubt for the Embassy part, she could have definately written "I'm innocent" instead of fabricating a detailed story.

 

[aa9511]

Could all the former oddballs please have their past nerdiness verified by Websleuths moderators?

How can we be expected to take you at your word?

Thanks in advance.

Oh god, no please don't make me go back there! :floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

hahahhaa

I would prefer not to re-live those days!

 

[aa9511]

My mother once screamed at me that we couldn't have a funeral for my brother because his body would be contagious and have to be cremated immediately!

The kicker? My brother was still very much alive (though ill with AIDS) and was sitting next to our mother at the time. (He turned the palest shade I've ever seen from a living human being.)

Did my mother murder my brother? No, she cared for him lovingly until his eventual death. But she has never learned to handle tragedy with grace.

Nova, I'm sorry for your brother's death. Hugs to you.

 

[aa9511]

Is the theory that a burglar threw a rock through Filomina's bedroom window, scaled the shear wall, climbed in the window ... remember, he's a burglar ... ignored Filomina's laptop, ignored the jewelry in the top drawer of the desk, yanked some clothes from the closet (threw them on the floor) and proceeded down the hall, past Knox's bedroom, to the primary target: Meredith's rent money and cell phones?

Does that seems far fetched?

Boy, don't you know Amanda and RS must be kicking themselves over that staging they did!

 

[aa9511]

I have also taught creative writing for many years! I'm a poet and Iowa Writers' Workshop grad. I think it's a very common idea that people have that young writers typically write about violence. I've taught at the University level for a long time, both undergraduate and graduate students. It's really rare, actually, for me to get pieces that are gratuitous/graphic. When I do, it is a definite red flag for me as a teacher to keep an eye on the student. One student was obsessed with sexual violence and had substance abuse issues. One was just misogynist. If the piece has some kind of redemptive thread in it, fine. I have never taught playwriting/screenwriting, though, and that could certainly be different!

But actually, in your comment about "anyone can claim to be a teacher.." I interpreted that to mean that you could ask several creative writing teachers and they might all have different answers about whether it's normal for young people to write about rape and violence. I didn't read it to mean that one might be lying.

I agree with folks that being strange, quirky, odd etc doesn't make one a murderer. I originally thought that AK was just weird, maybe kind of narcissistic, but not guilty of murder. But I also believe that many of us want to be so open and tolerant toward difference that we sometimes do dismiss red flags too easily. I've had a lot of really weird friends and acquaintances in my life. I overlooked a lot of "quirks". Looking back, I now believe some of those people were actually pretty bad people. Some of their behavior I recognize now as pathological and not just creative.

Anyway, just my two cents!

bbm

Song22, love your post! Re: bolded part, I definately agree with this. I also think we tend to over-analyze cases and sometimes miss obvious points because we try so hard to give the accused the benefit of doubt.

 

[OldSteve]

Of all the things, the duvet almost completely covering Meridith's precious body truly seems like something a woman or sensitive/introverted type of man would do. I cannot see Rudy doing that. I also see that as something done by someone coming back to look at her after the attack - as if coming to a realization of some sort about what had happened.

 

[Harmony 2]

Sure. I do see Knox's pre-occupation with "creative" writings about drugging and raping, which continued after her incarceration, as abnormal.

I'm not sure what you want proved. As I've said, I believe that if an 18-22 year old adult is pre-occupied with drugs and rape, the adult should be monitored. I would never think "hey, that's youth, no problem." Read about Jessica Ridgeway and tell me that it is normal and acceptable for a youth or young adult to be pre-occupied with rape and drugs.

Edgar Allen Poe, Stephen King, H.P Lovecraft

The famous authors above never hurt or killed anyone yet they are well known for their works in the modern horror fiction genre.

As a child, King apparently witnessed one of his friends being struck and killed by a train, though he has no memory of the event. His family told him that after leaving home to play with the boy, King returned, speechless and seemingly in shock. Only later did the family learn of the friend's death. Some commentators have suggested that this event may have psychologically inspired some of King's darker works,[8] but King makes no mention of it in his memoir On Writing (2000).[9]

Stephen King - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Nova]

Your poor brother, Nova But I am assuming at his core he knew she loved him, and was just being her odd self, as you say, no grace under pressure. Very typical of my family, too. I am so sorry about your brother.

Thank you. It was a long time ago (20 years), but I'm still haunted a bit by that moment. And you're right: he was absolutely my mother's favorite (not that she would say so--she's not THAT uncouth); I'm sure he knew it.

And it has nothing to do with this discussion except it's one example (I could list many others) that explains why I don't think inappropriate remarks under pressure prove anything.