Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#6

[Yellow]

Well, this business with the bra, the stencil effect, the blood droplets, etc., was hugely, massively important in Massei, and I believe also in the Galati appeal. It revealed that someone had returned to move the victim many hours after death.

If Guede threw a huge rock at partially closed shutters and entered in that way, I don't know what to say. If ONLY surveillance cameras were everywhere: We would know if anyone entered there, we would see inside the cottage and know what occurred. I want to KNOW what happened,( you cannot be on the side of truth or justice if you don't know what happened) and I'm afraid I never will. :tantrum: ETA: And yes, the rock might have been thrown from the outside even in a simulation.

It has to be in Massei bc it is their best evidence. I still cannot see how they can prove anything regard who did what when. To me, RG was in and on the body and he admitted being there. There is no evidence of AK and RS in the murder room or on the murder weapon which should have been covered in blood. Their best evidence - the footstep stuff- would be convincing if at least it was MK DNA, which would give strong weight to their conclusion that it was bloody given the negative test results for blood. Also. Why RG footprints in MK blood from murder room and out of the cottage? Why no footsteps of AK and RS in murder room and no evidence in murder room of luminol so they were not cleaned up, where did they go? Even if they left footprints other places, how did they go from murder room to hallway without leaving any footprints?

We likely will not know what really happen and it is not something either side must prove. Like we do not know what exactly happened with Laci Peterson, did he drown her, strangle her, etc? At least here we know the method of killing,

Not sure if Italy has son of Sam laws but when RG gets out soon we may hear more details of whatever his story is in the tabloids. I am sure he will use this to his advantage to score a few bucks. Probably all lies though. I just pray when he gets out he grows a conscience if AK and RS do get convicted, that he will finally open up and tell the truth about this mess, maybe there are details of the crime that would be symbolic for the family, I.e., something MK told him, etc, though I doubt he will ever admit his true involvements though maybe he will try to score one of those OJ style books "If I did It"

Indeed, once appeals are done, why don't AK and RS do a lie detector tests on Dr Phil. I think if they are innocent, that would help eliminate many remaining doubt about them. I cannot imagine RS can even live in his homeland anymore unless he did such a test.

 

[sherlockh]

Well, this business with the bra, the stencil effect, the blood droplets, etc., was hugely, massively important in Massei, and I believe also in the Galati appeal. It revealed that someone had returned to move the victim many hours after death.

If Guede threw a huge rock at partially closed shutters and entered in that way, I don't know what to say. If ONLY surveillance cameras were everywhere: We would know if anyone entered there, we would see inside the cottage and know what occurred. I want to KNOW what happened,( you cannot be on the side of truth or justice if you don't know what happened) and I'm afraid I never will. :tantrum: ETA: And yes, the rock might have been thrown from the outside even in a simulation.

I considered if the rock could have been thrown from outside, but the problem is the distribution of the glass which falls both ways. I don't believe the police (or anybody else) wouldn't notice the glass on the outside or that it is still there hidden under leaves or whatever.
http://forensics4fiction.com/2012/07/10/which-way-does-glass-fall-hint-its-a-trick-question/

 

[Yellow]

Well, this business with the bra, the stencil effect, the blood droplets, etc., was hugely, massively important in Massei, and I believe also in the Galati appeal. It revealed that someone had returned to move the victim many hours after death.

If Guede threw a huge rock at partially closed shutters and entered in that way, I don't know what to say. If ONLY surveillance cameras were everywhere: We would know if anyone entered there, we would see inside the cottage and know what occurred. I want to KNOW what happened,( you cannot be on the side of truth or justice if you don't know what happened) and I'm afraid I never will. :tantrum: ETA: And yes, the rock might have been thrown from the outside even in a simulation.

What is the story about moving the body? What evidence shows that it was moved hours later as opposed to being moved in the minutes after the crime? I could see timing being important bc I am firmly convinced RG was out of there quickly but I don't know how long he stayed, not long I suppose.

I don't think the mere fact it was covered by a quilt means a women did it, I think he did not want anyone to notice the body, not sure if there was a window in MK's room, or maybe he just could not stand looking at the scene. It would only be relevant if the covering occurred hours later.

But as I said, I could see TIMING as important, if they could prove that movement occurred hours later. What evidence supports this?

 

[Yellow]

I considered if the rock could have been thrown from outside, but the problem is the distribution of the glass which falls both ways. I don't believe the police (or anybody else) wouldn't notice the glass on the outside or that it is still there hidden under leaves or whatever.
http://forensics4fiction.com/2012/07/10/which-way-does-glass-fall-hint-its-a-trick-question/

But why throw from inside? They had to go outside to get the rock bc I assume there was not rock lying around, at that point, if they wanted to stage a burglary why throw from inside?

Anyone at all familiar w Jon Benet case knows they can detect sometimes how t was thrown, I don't presuppose those 2 knew about that case but I think they would have thrown from outside even in a simulation. It is not logical to use a rock to throw from inside bc where did the rock come from?

 

[SMK]

What is the story about moving the body? What evidence shows that it was moved hours later as opposed to being moved in the minutes after the crime? I could see timing being important bc I am firmly convinced RG was out of there quickly but I don't know how long he stayed, not long I suppose.

I don't think the mere fact it was covered by a quilt means a women did it, I think he did not want anyone to notice the body, not sure if there was a window in MK's room, or maybe he just could not stand looking at the scene. It would only be relevant if the covering occurred hours later.

But as I said, I could see TIMING as important, if they could prove that movement occurred hours later. What evidence supports this?

Trying to find it in Massei:

He concluded she had lain in one position for some time (due to blood soaked strap and matching marks on floor) and was moved later and the bra taken off long after the attack and death (no blood where bra was so she had stopped exhaling blood droplets)--

he felt Guede would have fled the scene early, and the only one interested in returning later and moving the body would be one who resided in the cottage --really need to be able to refer you to the passage, but am having trouble finding it in the 200+ pp document. Otto, do you know where it is?

 

[Yellow]

I think RG is the sole perp, but I find the following a little odd, though I do not know anything about burglars so that may explain my ignorance

1) if done at 9-10, it seems a little early. Would not a burglar do it later like 2-3 am?

2) why not burglar the first floor apartment? Was there a means of access betwee 1st and 2nd floor such that if he got into the first room, he could have accessed the 2nd floor too?

3) wouldn't the commotion had created a commotion for MK to investigate? Did the first encounter between RG and MK happen in F's room I wonder? Maybe that is how a drop of blood from MK got there? Then he forced her into her room

The more likely answer to my question here was that MK was not home yet when RG entered. He thought the place was free & clear for the night so he went to the bathroom. He did his business, but did not flush bc that was not his style but also bc he did not want to alert her. Mk goes to her room, and then makes phone calls that do not go through.

He could have simply left out the front door I believe and Mk would have heard the noise but he still would have gotten away. But at some point he makes the decision to go into MK room.

 

[SMK]

I think RG is the sole perp, but I find the following a little odd, though I do not know anything about burglars so that may explain my ignorance

1) if done at 9-10, it seems a little early. Would not a burglar do it later like 2-3 am?

2) why not burglar the first floor apartment? Was there a means of access betwee 1st and 2nd floor such that if he got into the first room, he could have accessed the 2nd floor too?

3) wouldn't the commotion had created a commotion for MK to investigate? Did the first encounter between RG and MK happen in F's room I wonder? Maybe that is how a drop of blood from MK got there? Then he forced her into her room

The more likely answer to my question here was that MK was not home yet when RG entered. He thought the place was free & clear for the night so he went to the bathroom. He did his business, but did not flush bc that was not his style but also bc he did not want to alert her. Mk goes to her room, and then makes phone calls that do not go through.

He could have simply left out the front door I believe and Mk would have heard the noise but he still would have gotten away. But at some point he makes the decision to go into MK room.

Well, playing Lone Wolf advocate here for a moment : :floorlaugh:

He might have gotten word that all would be away. The place would be empty of any inhabitants as was more or less true on this holiday weekend.
He may have heard that MK would have all the rent money or Filomena would, in an envelope in a bedroom, and was seeking it early for his night out (maybe needed a drug fix).
Yes, he may have been at his leisure, on the toilet, when he heard MK enter and became frozen with fear. Did not flush so as not to alert her.
Made his way quietly to the front door to leave---Yikes! MK had locked it from inside and taken the key---he could not get out without the key *this is how the door in fact worked. Now he must confront her by saying, "Oh, I had just dropped in, was looking for someone"--but she perhaps became alarmed and said she knew the door had been locked so how had he gotten in, and then something escalated.

 

[Yellow]

:seeya:

Trying to find it in Massei:

He concluded she had lain in one position for some time (due to blood soaked strap and matching marks on floor) and was moved later and the bra taken off long after the attack and death (no blood where bra was so she had stopped exhaling blood droplets)--

he felt Guede would have fled the scene early, and the only one interested in returning later and moving the body would be one who resided in the cottage --really need to be able to refer you to the passage, but am having trouble finding it in the 200+ pp document. Otto, do you know where it is?

If they were running around doing all this moving though without RG being present why are not they leaving any traces? They could have been in that room 1-2 Hours yet no evidence on duvet, etc

To take off a bra on a dead body would not be easy. You would have had to touch the body and if it would involve removing or cutting a bra off you would probably need one person to hold up while another cuts. I think whoever was holding the body would have left touch DNA. You also would be touching the whole bra

And why do that anyway? Why make yourself touch the body more than you need to? What did allegedly moving the body accomplish? Nothing, so I don't see why someone would go to all the trouble and risk leaving more evidence of themselves on the body.

I don't see why anyone would have an interest in moving the body hours later. Staged to look like what? Sometimes you have murderers staging in sexual poses but that was the case here so what would have been accomplished by moving the body?

Rather I could see RG wanting to hide the body to make it look like MK was sleeping if anyone walked in, though it seems like the whole scene was a bloody mess anyway so that too had no real significance.

 

[Steely Dan]

How unfortunate. He had to actually think back four days to figure out if he stayed in on Halloween or on November 1. I'm sure it was really difficult to remember given that October 31 was a special event. If that's what is in Sollecito's book, then he is milking the sympathy angle for all it's worth.

I don't think that all Italians make a big deal about Halloween. He did not go out that evening. I don't see how it would be different from any other evening during which he studied. BTW I could be wrong, but I believe that Amanda worked that evening, so I don't see it as particularly memorable.

BBM

IIRC, Amanda was called and told to not come into work that night.

That's right. He didn't celebrate on Halloween, but he most certainly was aware of it. The Italians had their own special day on November 1. Knox was looking for a party on October 31, contacting Meredith several times. Meredith did not respond. With all those special events that week, if he couldn't remember what happened when, I would suggest that a calendar would not have helped.

^^^^ What he said.

i am not sure where on the site i saw the assertion, but you can google greg hampikian on TJMK and then search my posts for the same. it was a poster here who first mentioned that GH had distanced himself from the case so i went looking for real evidence. i found none, only proof of the opposite. and sorry, i can't recall the poster who said that was either, but it's here somewhere too.

This is from the Meredith Kercher site discussing Hampikian; http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index...two_positions_of_trust_in_serially_misrepres/

 

[SMK]

:seeya:

If they were running around doing all this moving though without RG being present why are not they leaving any traces? They could have been in that room 1-2 Hours yet no evidence on duvet, etc

To take off a bra on a dead body would not be easy. You would have had to touch the body and if it would involve removing or cutting a bra off you would probably need one person to hold up while another cuts. I think whoever was holding the body would have left touch DNA. You also would be touching the whole bra

And why do that anyway? Why make yourself touch the body more than you need to? What did allegedly moving the body accomplish? Nothing, so I don't see why someone would go to all the trouble and risk leaving more evidence of themselves on the body.

I don't see why anyone would have an interest in moving the body hours later. Staged to look like what? Sometimes you have murderers staging in sexual poses but that was the case here so what would have been accomplished by moving the body?

Rather I could see RG wanting to hide the body to make it look like MK was sleeping if anyone walked in, though it seems like the whole scene was a bloody mess anyway so that too had no real significance.

It is odd, once you think about it.

I think Massei concluded this from evidence, and then on reflection figured it was to make it look like a sexual assault--yes, it's all very odd.......why move the body and cut the bra off indeed? why not just leave her lying so as to make it look like a home invasion crime?

I do feel confused now....Here is a passage about it, under Who Returned to Move Meredith? at this link: http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/The_Staged_Burglary

 

[MichaelSmith]

I think RG is the sole perp, but I find the following a little odd, though I do not know anything about burglars so that may explain my ignorance

1) if done at 9-10, it seems a little early. Would not a burglar do it later like 2-3 am?

2) why not burglar the first floor apartment? Was there a means of access betwee 1st and 2nd floor such that if he got into the first room, he could have accessed the 2nd floor too?

3) wouldn't the commotion had created a commotion for MK to investigate? Did the first encounter between RG and MK happen in F's room I wonder? Maybe that is how a drop of blood from MK got there? Then he forced her into her room

The more likely answer to my question here was that MK was not home yet when RG entered. He thought the place was free & clear for the night so he went to the bathroom. He did his business, but did not flush bc that was not his style but also bc he did not want to alert her. Mk goes to her room, and then makes phone calls that do not go through.

He could have simply left out the front door I believe and Mk would have heard the noise but he still would have gotten away. But at some point he makes the decision to go into MK room.

1. He could have just been an opportunist. First trip was to visit the guys downstairs and then decided to b&e when he realized no one was home.

2. He might have used the stolen keys to go downstairs briefly. We should take a look at the photos because something happened downstairs and he mentions hearing noises there which is another one of his cover stories.

3. Agree with you. He was on the toilet when Meredith walked in and he attacked within minutes.

 

[Steely Dan]

This is what I think happened. The pot they were smoking could have been laced with something stronger or they were only willing to admit to smoking pot and not using anything harder. I think some sort of argument happened. It probably had something to do with Amanda being P.O.'d about Meredith supposedly taking her job.

I think the guys ramped it up and with significantly impaired judgment Amanda just went along with it. I think she knew the next morning she was in deep crap and cleaned up the place and made a fishy call to Filomena.

When her stories started to conflict and she knew things weren't looking good she decided to say; "The police forced me into it. I don't speak Italian. I was under so much coercion. They hit me etc. etc. etc."

If this had happened in America I think this would be an open and shut case. It just seems that so many people want to believe that Italian justice is far worse than American justice. In some ways it's a lot better and most ways equal. JMO

 

[sherlockh]

But why throw from inside? They had to go outside to get the rock bc I assume there was not rock lying around, at that point, if they wanted to stage a burglary why throw from inside?

Anyone at all familiar w Jon Benet case knows they can detect sometimes how t was thrown, I don't presuppose those 2 knew about that case but I think they would have thrown from outside even in a simulation. It is not logical to use a rock to throw from inside bc where did the rock come from?

The noise, but why wonder about how they should have done it if the evidence already shows it was done from inside?

 

[Yellow]

It is odd, once you think about it.

I think Massei concluded this from evidence, and then on reflection figured it was to make it look like a sexual assault--yes, it's all very odd.......why move the body and cut the bra off indeed? why not just leave her lying so as to make it look like a home invasion crime?

I do feel confused now....Here is a passage about it, under Who Returned to Move Meredith? at this link: http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/The_Staged_Burglary

But it was a sexual assault so why would one need to pose it as sure. Surely AK would have seen the assault.

I don't know why anyone would cut off the bra after the murder unless the murderer has his own sexual reason for wanting to view her breasts. Very sick but if you believe the lone wold theory this suggests that the sex assault could have happened after the murder and that removing the bra was for a sexual purpose. We do not know specifics of where RG DNA was found, I assume private parts but I am not sure if it was found on other areas like breast

I don't know why AK and RS would want to risk leaving evidence by cutting off her bra to make it look like a sexual assault when it was already a sexual assault.

 

[sherlockh]

Whole blood has both red blood cells (erythrocytes) and white blood cells, of various types, and they are in the ratio of roughly 1000 to 1. If whole blood is present, one should be able to detect both biomolecules specific to blood and also to detect DNA. The lack of Meredith's DNA in so many of these samples is odd, to say the least. BTW, none of the three luminol-positive footprints in the hallway were positive for DNA, but there are errors in Massei and Hellman with respect to this. There is an unattributed shoe print that yielded a mixed DNA profile.

The way one rules out false positives from presumptive blood tests is to do a confirmatory test for blood. These tests use antibodies against hemoglobin or glycophorin A, and they general have lower limits of detection that are quite impressive.

A 1,000 to 1 is a lot. Besides you can't claim there should be DNA and at the same time claim the TMB test should have been positive if it was blood. You can't have it both ways. The negative TMB test proved that there was very little blood. That there was DNA in some of the Luminol prints further proves it was blood.

The whole argument that Knox would have DNA all over the place just because she lives there, while at the same time Guede is said to have cleaned up in the bathroom without leaving DNA evidence is contradictory. As if you only leave DNA after washing a certain number of times. There is no reason there should be any DNA in the middle of a flat surface like the hallway floor. Knox should have said she regularly did cartwheels in the hallway, maybe that would have helped. JMO.

 

[otto]

Have y'all read monster of florence? great book. I really enjoyed it!

I couldn't get past the pages and pages of "... in a dark, smokey bar". The story had such a slow start that I got bored and never finished it.

 

[Yellow]

A 1,000 to 1 is a lot. Besides you can't claim there should be DNA and at the same time claim the TMB test should have been positive if it was blood. You can't have it both ways. The negative TMB test proved that there was very little blood. That there was DNA in some of the Luminol prints further proves it was blood.

The whole argument that Knox would have DNA all over the place just because she lives there, while at the same time Guede is said to have cleaned up in the bathroom without leaving DNA evidence is contradictory. As if you only leave DNA after washing a certain number of times. There is no reason there should be any DNA in the middle of a flat surface like the hallway floor. Knox should have said she regularly did cartwheels in the hallway, maybe that would have helped. JMO.

You can have dna without blood but how could you have blood without DNA? DNA can be left from skin cells, etc having nothing to do w blood. Yet, blood, which was negative in the tests, should have had DNA. Some of the prints had AK DNA but not MK, so it is not just a matter of sensitivity

Quite simply, the prints should have tested positive for blood and positive for MK DNA. There is no dispute of what the tests say. This raises doubt as to whether the luminol really was just picking up bleach from AK footprints.

The arguments are not contradictory. It would not be odd for there to be AK DNA in the apartment. And RG did likely leave DNa evidence on the bathmat, not sure what else he would have left, he did leave bloody footprints all over.

Touch DNA for a 30 minute encounter in the bathroom is far different from the touch DNA that would have accumulated over 2 months. Of course we would expect to find AK DNA and bc there was no control testing we do not know if other roommates left DNA in their own home.

 

[geevee]

I don't think we will ever be able to know what went on w that bra. It was photographed in numerous areas of the room and was not collected for 47 days. She obviously was raped or there was an attempted rape so why stage a sexual attack when there WAS a sexual attacK? I don't see how the bra has any relevance at all as to staging

And what you say about the Rock - that it is not an obvious choice - speaks to the fact that however the rock got there RG was probably involved bc how would AK and RS have known to use RG modus operandi unless RG was involved w them in suggesting the staging OR RG in fact came in during a attempted burglary using the same method he used in the past?

Especially if the window was broken from the inside. Where would the rock have come from? Would AK and RS have gone outside, get a rock and then throw it from inside? Why not just throw it from outside if they were outside anyway getting the rock?

Or do people think that Fiomella was a Rock collector and just had a rock handy in her room to throw a rock at the window and break from the inside? Where did this Rock come from?

I wonder if they did any testing to see if the rock matched ones outside the home. If so, if they had to go outside to get the rock, they would have thrown it from outside since they would be outside anyway getting the Rock. Thus it would be impossible to tell whether staging or burglar even if rock thrown from outside. Of course there would be more risk of getting seen throwing it from outside.

Doesn't the glass all over the inside of the room rule out the rock having been thrown from the inside?

 

[Yellow]

Doesn't the glass all over the inside of the room rule out the rock having been thrown from the inside?

That is what I think, I don't know why other posters are saying it is definitely from the inside, other than the ambiguities about whether the shutters were opened or not, what evidence supports the rock from inside? Where get a rock to do it?

Even if shutters closed, RG could simply have opened them & threw rock.

 

[sherlockh]

You can have dna without blood but how could you have blood without DNA? DNA can be left from skin cells, etc having nothing to do w blood. Yet, blood, which was negative in the tests, should have had DNA. Some of the prints had AK DNA but not MK, so it is not just a matter of sensitivity

Quite simply, the prints should have tested positive for blood and positive for MK DNA. There is no dispute of what the tests say. This raises doubt as to whether the luminol really was just picking up bleach from AK footprints.

The arguments are not contradictory. It would not be odd for there to be AK DNA in the apartment. And RG did likely leave DNa evidence on the bathmat, not sure what else he would have left, he did leave bloody footprints all over.

Touch DNA for a 30 minute encounter in the bathroom is far different from the touch DNA that would have accumulated over 2 months. Of course we would expect to find AK DNA and bc there was no control testing we do not know if other roommates left DNA in their own home.

The negative TMB test shows there is very little blood. You need enough white blood cells for DNA, but Luminol reacts to the red blood cells without DNA. So it is all about the sensitivity. It can't be bleach as already shown.

AK was bleeding herself. RG's foot does not match the footprint on the bathmat, and his DNA on that math is just speculation not based on any evidence. He did not leave any footprints, only shoe prints. I don't understand why evidence is ignored just to come up with alternative scenarios.

ETA: If it is a rule that Luminol positive traces must contain DNA then it would have been easy enough for the defense to prove this.