Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#6

[Katody]

I've pushed the reds and yellows on this one. I found the original images in a google image search, but MichaelSmith has said that they are from the Rinaldi report.

Thanks, now it is clearly visible that the "30 mm" arrow starts well outside of the rather slender toe print.
It's a match for Guede. Rinaldi tried hard to fit Sollecito in but failed. It can't be done.

 

[otto]

We know RG touched the door knob when he tried to break the door down. Technicians also did this, possibly without changing gloves

The bra was also moved several times as evidenced by the video. I am not sure what of AK was in that pile. If her clothes or underwear, RS would have been all over that.

The problem w the knife is you are relying on low copy DNA, which was done by a lab not credited to do it and which as far as I know not admissible in cases bc it is too unreliable. The lab was teaming in MK DNA. Given the lab I believe was not credited to do DNA evidence, I do not find it a stretch if they did not follow procedures

And people forget there are a few big problems w that knife, first there is no blood, which makes no sense and I have never gotten a pro guilty side to ever explain how that is possible. They just ignore that very important point. Second, cuts don't match that specific knife to the exclusion of many knives. Third, there should at least be MK low copy DNA all over that knife. The fact it is only one itty bitty places raises the Spector of contamination

There is a reason the machine blares out "too low" when they did the test on the knife. The machine could not do an accurate reading on that DNA and given the lab was not certified to do DNA testing, we are not certain it was even doing the test right. You don't even need to get to contamination to discredit the knife IMO

Would you trust the results of a medical test from a lab not certified to do the testing? No, with your own health, you would go to another lab. You would think you might have w false positive or a false negative in an unaccredited lab. You would double check the results, not accept them at face value and take expensive pills bc the unaccredited lab said you has a disease.

The knife and bra IMO will be thrown out. As even the judge said there is no reason C&V are unreliable. That is why the circumstantial case was emphasized more by the prosecutor, he knows this is likely.

Isn't it a bit of a stretch to suggest that Sollecito's DNA was on the door handle of Meredith's door (which incidentally did not contain any evidence), that DNA was transferred to a glove, and that DNA was then transferred to Meredith's clasp? If secondary transfer is very unlikely, what would this be?

If there were so many problems with the identification of Meredith's DNA on the blade of the knife, why is it such a clean sample?

 

[Yellow]

It looks like Guede's to me. The same dimensions and shape of the big toe. Sollecito's toe is triangular and wide, Guede's elongated just like the bloody print.

I agree, it is disputed and it is a central part of the appeal. To say that there is no dispute about it is just plain wrong. All we have is the trial court ruling on it. The trial court had been found wrong on other evidence, so we cannot take its word as gospel. We can only take it as what the prosecution argues and what the trial court found, not what the judicial system will ultimately find.

The mere fact it is so disputed weakens their circumstantial case alot. Once you get rid of the other DNA evidence (no reason C&V should be disregarded) this footprint evidence really becomes their case so they REALLY have to prove it

The naked eye shows it to be RS IMO

 

[Katody]

I could darken the image to make the two points of measurement easier to see.

It's not that the measurements are not visible. It's very visible that they start at arbitrary points that don't correspond to the shape of the prints at all.

 

[otto]

Thanks, now it is clearly visible that the "30 mm" arrow starts well outside of the rather slender toe print.
It's a match for Guede. Rinaldi tried hard to fit Sollecito in but failed. It can't be done.

If it's Guede's print, where are his toes?

 

[otto]

It's not that the measurements are not visible. It's very visible that they start at arbitrary points that don't correspond to the shape of the prints at all.

The measurement goes from the base of the toe to the tip of the toe. I darkened Sollecito's foot to make the end points of the dimension easier to see.

 

[Sigh Sister]

I think that raises the possibility of contamination or else MK had a lot of male friends touching that bra, which we think is unlikely.

It could also be there were 5 people in the murder room, the three plus 3-4 other strange males. Why doesn't the prosecution add more people to their story and say you have AK and 5 men fighting over the cleaning? If they want to add RS why not add these strange men too?

One of the many things I find baffling is the fact that they did not test what appeared to be a semen stain that was on the pillow underneath her hips. IIRC, the reason given for not testing it was because she was sexually active, it would have no probative value. Huh??

 

[Sigh Sister]

If it's Guede's print, where are his toes?

If it's Raffele's why can I see a second toe? I couldn't see the second toe until you enhanced it.

 

[Katody]

If it's Guede's print, where are his toes?

They were not bloody. Why is the bloody toe not triangular, like Sollecito's, but elongated like Guede's?

The measurement goes from the base of the toe to the tip of the toe. I darkened Sollecito's foot to make the end points of the dimension easier to see.

Thanks, but it's visible the measurement "37 mm" starts well below the toe print. Rinaldi had to make it longer on paper than it is in reality, because the bloody toeprint is around 40 mm, like Guede's.
Sollecito's hammer toe makes much shorter print. It's obvious from the pictures you posted.

 

[SMK]

Thanks, now it is clearly visible that the "30 mm" arrow starts well outside of the rather slender toe print.
It's a match for Guede. Rinaldi tried hard to fit Sollecito in but failed. It can't be done.

I think if you look with the naked eye, at first because of the extended color, it looks like Sollecito's print. However, when you look down to the ball of the feet (Sollecito vs Guede) the ball of the foot matches Guede. (just using eyes)

 

[Yellow]

Isn't it a bit of a stretch to suggest that Sollecito's DNA was on the door handle of Meredith's door (which incidentally did not contain any evidence), that DNA was transferred to a glove, and that DNA was then transferred to Meredith's clasp? If secondary transfer is very unlikely, what would this be?

If there were so many problems with the identification of Meredith's DNA on the blade of the knife, why is it such a clean sample?

That is just one scenario. Another scenario is more direct, that RS was somewhere in that pile and transferred, still another scenario (and it has been something courts have accepted in other cases) is that the lab, not credited to do DNA, had RS DNA in lab and technicians improperly transferred.

C&V said there were 50 violations of protocol. Many of those violations could have resulted in contamination. Defense need not prove which scenario.

The fact that there is also all this random DNA also suggests contamination. I would not be surprised if some of that is technician DNA.

No higher court will uphold a conviction based on low copy DNA let alone one done by an unaccredited lab. The technicians could very well have had MK DNA and improperly transferred it in their testing

Also,more importantly, if MK was such a clean sample, why isn't it all over the knife? How could it be used as stabbing object and have no blood and also not have DNA of MK all over? Not just low copy but regular DNA?

If people want to really debate this case, IMO, people should concede the weaknesses of some arguments. The DNA one is one where the prosecutions side will be rejected IMO bc why would they go against C&V? Why give Ak a very clear argument on appeal?

If people really think AK guilty they should hope the court does not base its case on DNA. They seem convinced by the circumstantial case and so why even bother w DNA at all? It seems many people who believe in her guilt do not concede the weakness or lack of viability at all of any arguments at all.

If you know the facts of this case, each side has it weaknesses and strengths. For pro innocence, I would say her statement plus if it was proven that those footsteps were in MK blood, that would be damning, but I think still would not be enough. So far, no pro guilt posters have conceded the weakness of any argument IMO . One can still find guilt yet think some arguments have weaknesses.

 

[Yellow]

One of the many things I find baffling is the fact that they did not test what appeared to be a semen stain that was on the pillow underneath her hips. IIRC, the reason given for not testing it was because she was sexually active, it would have no probative value. Huh??

I agree, at least do the testing as the defense wanted. Maybe her boyfriend told the police he made the stain, yet I don't know why they would not have tested it.

If it was RS or RG it would be very damning. If it was RS it would have made their case. Defense would have a hard time explaining that. If RG it would be strong confirming evidence.

 

[Katody]

I think if you look with the naked eye, at first because of the extended color, it looks like Sollecito's print. However, when you look down to the ball of the feet (Sollecito vs Guede) the ball of the foot matches Guede. (just using eyes)

I once did a color enhancement just like Otto. It was some years ago, I'll try to dig it up from <other forums >.

 

[SMK]

<If people really think AK guilty they should hope the court does not base its case on DNA. They seem convinced by the circumstantial case and so why even bother w DNA at all?> SMK

I hear you. I do not know whether they are guilty or not, but the DNA is doing nothing for pro-guilt at this point; same with bathmat print, etc. So much of this keeps pointing back to Guede alone. You wind up really left only with their suspicious behavior. And some intuition that they know more than they have said.

At this point in the debate (with the bathmat print in serious question now) I think if they had gone on their trip that weekend, they might never have been suspects. People would have assumed a burglary had taken place. (Or IS the simulation theory truly backed by hard data? Been spun around so much, I can't keep the facts straight) I understand police felt their luminol prints, bra clasp indicated them, but so much mud was slung at these points I can't see clearly anymore. In any case I feel Nov 2 - AK , RS = nothing, no case. But they WERE there. Did that have meaning, or not?

 

[Katody]

Isn't it a bit of a stretch to suggest that Sollecito's DNA was on the door handle of Meredith's door (which incidentally did not contain any evidence), that DNA was transferred to a glove, and that DNA was then transferred to Meredith's clasp?

I don't think outside door handle was tested for DNA. There was blood on the inside handle and that one was swabbed.

One strange coincidence I notice is

1. many males tried to force open that door( Sollecito, Filomena's friends, Postal Police?)
2. Then, what many of us have seen on the video, a Scientifica technician held the clasp by the hook, and even rubbed the hook with his glove.
3. Finally, DNA testing revealed traces of multiple unidentified males + Sollecito on the hook.

Interesting.



IIRC Chris gave some sources indicating that secondary transfer is routine, not rare.
Tertiary transfer does happen, also. There is however no documentation for what happened to the clasp during the undocumented 'inspections' of the crime scene during which 'it moved'.

 

[otto]

I don't think outside door handle was tested for DNA. There was blood on the inside handle and that one was swabbed.

One strange coincidence I notice is

1. many males tried to force open that door( Sollecito, Filomena's friends, Postal Police?)
2. Then, what many of us have seen on the video, a Scientifica technician held the clasp by the hook, and even rubbed the hook with his glove.
3. Finally, DNA testing revealed traces of multiple unidentified males + Sollecito on the hook.

Interesting.

IIRC Chris gave some sources indicating that secondary transfer is routine, not rare.
Tertiary transfer does happen, also. There is however no documentation for what happened to the clasp during the undocumented 'inspections' of the crime scene during which 'it moved'.

I don't think that there was any prints on the door handle. Should we assume that there was DNA from Sollecito, who was not the last person to touch the handle, but there were no prints or DNA from anyone else?

Transfer of DNA from one surface (door handle) to a second surface (glove) to a third surface (clasp) is not secondary transfer.

 

[DerKritiker2011]

I don't know the exact science of the various measurements, but to the naked eye, this looks like Sollecito print (even though if you do not look more closely, at first sight it could be the Guede one).

Look at the 99mm. The manipulation causes this measurement to 110-120mm.
And the gap between the toe and the midfoot is now completly missing.

After this manipulation, the differences are much higher.

It's not Sollecitos foot.

 

[Katody]

I don't think that there was any prints on the door handle.

I think you're confusing here usable fingerprints with DNA.

Should we assume that there was DNA from Sollecito, who was not the last person to touch the handle, but there were no prints or DNA from anyone else

Of course not. Let me rephrase.

1. A group of males, including Sollecito, touched the door trying to open it.

2. Then, what many of us have seen on the video, a Scientifica technician held the clasp by the hook, and even rubbed the hook with his glove.

3. Finally, DNA testing revealed traces of multiple unidentified males + Sollecito on the hook. Strangely, no such DNA anywhere else on the fabric of the clasp or the bra.

What if the DNA mix got transferred from the door by means of a dirty policeman's glove?

 

[Yellow]

I don't think that there was any prints on the door handle. Should we assume that there was DNA from Sollecito, who was not the last person to touch the handle, but there were no prints or DNA from anyone else?

Transfer of DNA from one surface (door handle) to a second surface (glove) to a third surface (clasp) is not secondary transfer.

I believe they only tested for the suspects. They did not have DNA from roommates boyfriends or postal police to test I believe. Their DNA or fingerprints could have been on doorknob too and it could be their DNA that is unexplained on bra clasp.

There could have been DNA from various people on the knob, I don't think it was tested

There could also be RS somehow in that pile

Or DNA transfer in the unaccredited lab.that has happened in other cases where contamination occurs w technicians not doing things correctly

 

[Amber29]

Rudy Guede's German diary attached.

Thank you for this, I actually had never read it in its entirety only passages.