Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#7

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  • #701
That has been a lingering question in my mind, if two people were restraining her while a third raped her (or as near as he could with a feminine product inside her) it seems like there would be much more scattered bruising from all those hands, esp. in the areas where one would normally be restrained (wrists and ankles). Thanks for posting these Harmony, makes me more surprised than before that a jury ever found anyone but RG guilty.
Yes and in addition to the ankles, people often kneel on the person's lower legs to restrain them:

One would expect bruising on the shins, etc.

Again the prosecution had their own theory
(as depicted in the video re-enactment, which I never saw. the closest i saw is below which shows basically nothing)
[video=youtube;MCFtVfIo5pk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCFtVfIo5pk[/video]
 
  • #702
Maybe that's why his pants were wet in the area a pulled down sweatshirt would cover, if you catch my drift.
Yes, that is a thought.
 
  • #703
Yes and in addition to the ankles, people often kneel on the person's lower legs to restrain them:

One would expect bruising on the shins, etc.

Again the prosecution had their own theory
(as depicted in the video re-enactment, which I never saw. the closest i saw is below which shows basically nothing)
2009 prosecution theory of Meredith Kercher's murder - YouTube

That wasn't a very informative piece, eh? I can see why some have called it a 'cartoon', what it did show looked rather silly, it's just so...literal.
 
  • #704
That wasn't a very informative piece, eh? I can see why some have called it a 'cartoon', what it did show looked rather silly, it's just so...literal.
Yes; this is not the one the prosecution showed to the court, though. I gather it is a news re-enactment.

If you want to see a really absurd one, look at this one:facepalm: (Asian News re-enactment):

[video=youtube;dfvb6wo4qe8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfvb6wo4qe8[/video]
 
  • #705
More in Massei:

Page 121
While concluding that sexual activity in the vicinity of death took place, an event that had a non-consensual connotation, he highlighted the absence of accessory injuries (bruises to the legs or arms caused by grasping action) of any particular importance. There were bruises present at thigh level that might have indicated an action of grasping; however, the injuries were quite different from those that one is accustomed to seeing in [cases of] violence in the strict sense (transcripts, page19).

http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/TheMasseiReport.pdf
 
  • #706
I'm just reading Lalli. Pacelli yet again only interested in one thing just like asks so many other witnesses.

page 46

THE CIVIL - AVV. PACELLI

APPLICATION - Two very short questions, Dr. Lalli, if I understood gynecological exam and the examination of the region Anal have been performed at the morgue?

ANSWER - Yes
 

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  • #707
I think they get off bc there is a reasonable alternative scenario based in the evidence that RG is lone wolf, and they have alot of support bc the DNA evidence was discredited by independent experts. If they did not have the DNA evidence being discredited by intl standards, it would be a stronger case for guilt.

Also if they connected them to the murder room w DNA evidence, being white or college students would be of no help to them. It's the lack of evidence tying them to the room and murder weapon that gets them off, not merely being white or College students. And if you add to that you have no evidence connecting the three nor do you have evidence of past animosity, even a curcumstantial case comes falling down.

The circumstantial case requires too many assumptions and too make inferences to stand on its own without either having unrebuttable scientific proof or a strong motive to back it. You probably need both in a case w so many assumptions but you at least need one or the other. Here you don't have either the forensic link or the motive.

bbm

I disagree that there is no evidence tying them to the murder room, or the murder itself. One can use different "date points" to connect the dots. They lied about where they were that night, I know there is much debate on this, but IMO, this is my opinion only based on the evidence, I believe they're lying about where they were that night. So if you come from my viewpoint, is that they're lying about their alibi for the night. Then, they have their cell phones turned off, happened to be on the same night Meredith is murdered, and happened to be on the same night of which they're lying about where they were and what they were doing. Then, you have all the events of the next day, discovery of body, etc.. Then, you have all their different stories. Etc., Etc.. It is just too much, how can you say this is a "weak circumstantial case"?

I think the main difference between what we think is, I'm coming from the viewpoint that they're lying about a lot of things, and others have a viewpoint that they're not lying. This affects the prism of how we interpet all the other evidence from that point on. For example, if one doesn't think they're lying, and that they were really at home at Raffaelo's that night, then of course, they couldn't possibly be at Amanda's cottage. I ask that people keep an open mind, and part of that is maybe considering that they just might be lying about the "fact" that they were at Raffaelo's the whole night. If one keeps an open mind about this "fact," one can see all other evidence in a different light.

So to think that they're telling the truth about their alibi, as I said, automatically means one must disregard all other evidence. Because it is not possible to be two places at one time. This makes it possible to disregard everythingggggggggg from that point on. Such as DNA evidence, Luminol footprints, evidence of someone staging and some covering-up, the lies, evidence of lies, forensic evidence, etc..

I do not believe the forensic evidence is so easy to disregard, IMO. It is there. There are Luminol footprints, and there is DNA evidence of Amanda in that home when the murder occurred, and subsequent to that, lying about it. There is clear evidence.

As I said, to believe that they were at Raffaelo's when they said they were, of course means no other possibility is possible.
 
  • #708
  • #709
In the tabloids Lumumba was bashing Amanda every chance he could but in the courtroom he said they had a good relationship.

page 154
QUESTION - Look, his relationship with Amanda as they were?

ANSWER - My relationship, I know I was good relationship.

QUESTION - It has always been so?

ANSWER - That the relationship between us as a person, or relationship

I as an employer?

QUESTION - Both the one and the other.

ANSWER - As a person, honestly, what I know, we always had a good relationship, but what she as an employee after his way to work, I had to
repeat several times the things he had to do.

QUESTION - Did you have ... He reprimanded in some occasion? She has had ... Have you had any conflicts?

ANSWER - No no no no.

QUESTION - Have you ever raise your voice, for example?

ANSWER - No no no never, no no never, because even when type these things happened after that customers are went and did not clean the table, I did a little ' what ... something that you should not do, I said, this as if all. I talked to all the staff together to say: you have to be careful when customers if they leave, you have to fix. But to say directly to her, so I never did.

He knew Amanda & Meredith were friends.

QUESTION - And relations with Meredith Amanda, how were they?

ANSWER - E. ..

QUESTION - Do you have any knowledge or?

ANSWER - No, no.

QUESTION - I do not know.

ANSWER - I do not know, I knew they were friends, girlfriends and enough.
 
  • #710
Probably because Laura and Filomena contacted their lawyers immediately, thus I am quite certain they were advised on what they would/would not say or do.

Neither AK or RS lawyered up within hours of the discovery.

What would Laura/Filomena lawyering up have to do with their footprints or DNA from when they were at the house? Those would have been left before the murder and before there were any lawyers. And I didn't know lawyers had the ability to magically go and erase footprints just because they're lawyers.
 
  • #711
All my reading here and at the other 3 main sites makes me believe that all the evidence, inconsistencies, etc. are viewed through the lens of either guilt or innocence, respectively. And that this seems to color all: If you begin with the guilty premise, all falls into place for that; if you presume innocence, all is explained away and much vanishes.

I really wonder how the jurors (lay judges) will view all? Which side will they believe has the truth? And are these (6 women, I believe?) all familiar with the case for years, via media, etc.? Or is it new to them? I'm assuming as they are Italian, it cannot really be new for them......

I also am eager to hear how the defense wraps up - was supposed to be Dec 16-17, but now that Maresca still has to speak, it may eat into January.....and the Prosecution rebuttal. That's all that's left before jury deliberations.

Just musing......

bbm


SMK, ITA, except I don't think it stems from presuming them guilty or innocent in the beginning. I think it stems from either believing they might be lying about things, or presuming they must be telling the truth about things.

In fact, I just wrote a post about this same things earlier.

And it all begins with the alibi. If one believes their alibi and believes they are telling the truth about their alibi, then of course one has to disbelieve the rest of the case against them.

It just cannot be both ways. That they were at Raffaelo's eating/having sex/talking/on computer/etc.., and that they were at the same time at Amanda's cottage during the time period of the murder. It is just not possible.

So, what happens? From there on, if one chooses to believe them, one cannot believe anything else. One has to keep buying their subsequent stories.
 
  • #712
Yes, it is perplexing.

And I am not sure if Amanda perhaps initially rented the place, and returned to the US, and then came back in September, or just moved right in in August (I only have a limited Google preview of the book).

One other thing I was wondering about:

In the Murder Wiki, there is a section about staging not only the break in and burglary, but of someone returning to the cottage and moving Meredith's body after death, and cutting the bra and pushing up the shirt, to simulate a sexual attack.

I have been reading about staged crime scenes, and it turns out that many crime scenes have both a staged burglary and a staged sexual assault (eg a husband strangles his wife during an argument; then stages things to look as if a burglar broke in, ransacked the place, discovered the wife alone, and attempted a rape).

The question is, as Guede clearly assaulted Meredith (his DNA found on her tampon, and inside her) why would staging of a sex crime be presumed? Can anyone who believes in guilt address this; what the basic premise of a staging of sexual assault after an actual sex assault would be ? (my friend Otto or anyone else?) TIA--would be most appreciated. ETA: I know we have been over the logistics; I just want to grasp the premise better if I can.....

That is a good point, SMK!

My guess would be that if all 3 were present during the sexual assault, then they wanted it to have a clear relation to the "burglary" itself. That way, the sexual assault would be connected to one person and one person only, the "burglar."
 
  • #713
bbm

I disagree that there is no evidence tying them to the murder room, or the murder itself. One can use different "date points" to connect the dots. They lied about where they were that night, I know there is much debate on this, but IMO, this is my opinion only based on the evidence, I believe they're lying about where they were that night. So if you come from my viewpoint, is that they're lying about their alibi for the night. Then, they have their cell phones turned off, happened to be on the same night Meredith is murdered, and happened to be on the same night of which they're lying about where they were and what they were doing. Then, you have all the events of the next day, discovery of body, etc.. Then, you have all their different stories. Etc., Etc.. It is just too much, how can you say this is a "weak circumstantial case"?

I think the main difference between what we think is, I'm coming from the viewpoint that they're lying about a lot of things, and others have a viewpoint that they're not lying. This affects the prism of how we interpet all the other evidence from that point on. For example, if one doesn't think they're lying, and that they were really at home at Raffaelo's that night, then of course, they couldn't possibly be at Amanda's cottage. I ask that people keep an open mind, and part of that is maybe considering that they just might be lying about the "fact" that they were at Raffaelo's the whole night. If one keeps an open mind about this "fact," one can see all other evidence in a different light.

So to think that they're telling the truth about their alibi, as I said, automatically means one must disregard all other evidence. Because it is not possible to be two places at one time. This makes it possible to disregard everythingggggggggg from that point on. Such as DNA evidence, Luminol footprints, evidence of someone staging and some covering-up, the lies, evidence of lies, forensic evidence, etc..

I do not believe the forensic evidence is so easy to disregard, IMO. It is there. There are Luminol footprints, and there is DNA evidence of Amanda in that home when the murder occurred, and subsequent to that, lying about it. There is clear evidence.

As I said, to believe that they were at Raffaelo's when they said they were, of course means no other possibility is possible.
BBM - yes, I waver because of all you have stated so well here.

On the one hand, their being innocent and railroaded makes a lot of logical sense: Guede was a lone wolf but the prosecution cannot let go of these 2. It seems mean-spirited and bigoted.

On the other hand, there is a depth to this thing which that theory ignores. Questions continue to bubble up to the surface. There is an explanation for all, all can be dismissed. And yet....and yet.....as you list above, there is too much there. Too much to dismiss and wave away.

This case is difficult for me as I keep seeing the truth of both sides. I want to be fair, and I don't want to have any negative feelings for anyone . But I can never fully rest in the surety that they had no involvement.
 
  • #714
I know what you mean. Although I harbor some strong suspicions that the 2 were involved in some way, the evidence is sketchy and keeps you guessing - and doubting (which infers 'reasonable doubt').


bbm

MOO - I think our viewpoints would be much different if we were not as exposed to the case. That could go both ways. Perhaps the ones for "guiilt" would be less convinced and the ones for "innocence" would be less convinced.

Once someone hears something from a biased perspective, it is hard to "unhear." Even if that person's intention came from a good place (the biased perspective). All of this contributes to "background noise" which we cannot unhear.

No matter how objective we try to be, it is just not possible when we are exposed to so many things. Which, as I said, which cannot "unthink." That is then forever integrated in how we think about the case.
 
  • #715
What would Laura/Filomena lawyering up have to do with their footprints or DNA from when they were at the house? Those would have been left before the murder and before there were any lawyers. And I didn't know lawyers had the ability to magically go and erase footprints just because they're lawyers.
I think it means that their profiles were not referenced; hence, not found.
 
  • #716
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bbm

MOO - I think our viewpoints would be much different if we were not as exposed to the case. That could go both ways. Perhaps the ones for "guiilt" would be less convinced and the ones for "innocence" would be less convinced.

Once someone hears something from a biased perspective, it is hard to "unhear." Even if that person's intention came from a good place (the biased perspective). All of this contributes to "background noise" which we cannot unhear.

No matter how objective we try to be, it is just not possible when we are exposed to so many things. Which, as I said, which cannot "unthink." That is then forever integrated in how we think about the case.
I know exactly what you mean and I agree. So much reading, theorizing, discussing, etc. and as you say, you can't "unknow" it.
 
  • #717
Thank you for this. Well, there goes "the stencil effect" (Micheli, I believe ) which supposedly had the breast bare and unmarked by blood. (supporting the theory that the body was moved and staged, the bra cut, quite some time after death ) :( Nothing like being misled........Mignini asserted this in court. Why? grrrrr ETA: Unless perhaps there could be a stencil effect with some speckling of blood droplets on the breast?

I cannot tell from this youtube (WARNING - GRAPHIC):

MEREDITH KERCHER - YouTube

What about the bra strap which is clearly soaked in blood (I presume from the flowing from the neck). How would it be so soaked if it was off beforehand?
 
  • #718
I was looking for bruising from being restrained (like at wrists or ankles) and couldn't locate any information in the Massei report.

Wouldn't Guede as lone wolf have had to restrain her too? Wouldn't he have had to hold her by the wrists or somehow hold her down? And wouldn't that have been even more susceptible to bruising, as he being the only one would have had to exert more pressure on specific points of her body to hold he down, rather than with several people, the pressure is distributed as there are more people holding her down and so each person has to exert less pressure on her?

(sorry for run-on sentence/questions!)
 
  • #719
Wouldn't Guede as lone wolf have had to restrain her too? Wouldn't he have had to hold her by the wrists or somehow hold her down? And wouldn't that have been even more susceptible to bruising, as he being the only one would have had to exert more pressure on specific points of her body to hold he down, rather than with several people, the pressure is distributed as there are more people holding her down and so each person has to exert less pressure on her?

(sorry for run-on sentence/questions!)

Not really, IMO. Let's look at it this way. Guede breaks into the house when it is empty. He is looking for rent money or something else to steal that he won't have to worry about pawning in order to get some cash. While in the house he has to go to the bathroom, and for some reason can't seem to hold it, so off he goes to the larger bathroom. While he is in there Meredith comes home and goes to her room. She sits on her bed with her back to the door to take off her shoes to get comfortable. (The photo of her shoes show that one was untied and laces loosened while the other was pulled off without being untied.) Guede sneaks out of the bathroom and down the hall quietly. Guede comes up behind Meredith in a blitz attack. Holding a knife to her throat he demands she get on the floor. He tells her that if she fights him or screams that he will stab her. I doubt that many women would fight in this situation. There is also no need for him to restrain her if she believes that if she does what he says that he won't kill her. It really wouldn't take much for a larger male that has a weapon to control a smaller woman that has no weapon at all.

MOO
 
  • #720
What about the bra strap which is clearly soaked in blood (I presume from the flowing from the neck). How would it be so soaked if it was off beforehand?

Tossed onto the floor in a pile of blood? On the floor already and Meredith bled onto it? Just because there is blood on the bra strap does not mean that the blood had to get on the strap while she bleeding and wearing it.
 
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