Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#7

[MichaelSmith]

That is not how it works. Possibilities with an astronomic probability can be safely ignored. I follow the evidence and then come to a scenario. Why would you think of scenarios without considering the evidence? You can only come to other scenarios by ignoring or denying the evidence. Not one piece of evidence but as you see on this board every single piece of evidence must be attacked, every single investigator and expert must be incompetent, prosecutors must be attacked, witnesses must be ridiculed. Even websites where the evidence is structured, sourced, and logically explained are aggressively attacked.

Just try as an experiment to assume the print expert is not incompetent and was correct in identifying Sollecito's bloody footprint on the bathmat, or that the Luminol footprints were indeed made in Meredith's blood, that there was a cleanup, or that mixed blood/DNA is not so normal even if you live there, that Sollecito's DNA on the bra arrived there because he touched it, that Merdith's DNA was on the knife because it was used in the murder, or that the break-in was staged, or that Knox accused an innocent man to hide her own involvement, or that the witness was right in hearing multiple people run away right after the scream, or the witness that saw Knox and Sollecito waiting at the basketball court, or the witness that saw Knox early the next morning.

Just try to accept one evidence point and the case for innocence comes crashing down. Then realize that all these evidence points support each other and all point in the direction of the involvement of Sollecito, Guede and Knox in this horrible murder. JMO

It's about weighing the evidence and credibility of witnesses and experts. That's how trials work.....witnesses get impeached, discredited and their testimony rejected. Trials aren't about blind faith in what the prosecution says and accepting it unquestionably.

A career criminal convicted heroin dealer & junkie who was high on heroin the night of the murder and was found by a journalist a year later is simply not credible and has to be rejected. Even more so when this witness has testified previously in two murder trials for the same prosecutor. It works both ways because if the defence put forward someone like this giving them an alibi he'd be mocked and laughed out of court and rightfully so.

Same thing for Kokomani. He was a wife beating alcoholic cocaine dealer who fled to Albania and told a fanciful story about olives, gaps in teeth etc etc.

The print expert Mignini used was a hired gun. The DNA is junk science. The ear witness was an elderly lady who took 25 days to come forward even though she admits watching all the police and ambulance arrive Nov 2. She was totally confused about a lot of things even saying she heard running on grass. Ear witnesses are notorious for being unreliable.....eyewitnesses too.

Why shouldn't the highly distinguished defence & independent experts being taken seriously? The prosecution was never able to impeach them saying they weren't qualified.

Like I said, it's all about weighing the evidence and credibility of witnesses especially when an extraordinary conspiracy theory is put forward where two students dating a week are suppose to have somehow/somewhere teamed up with a random third person they didn't even know to rape/murder a friend within an hour after watching a movie and then after he leaves they somehow correctly guess his MO and stage it as a burglary looking very similar to a crime he's linked to two weeks earlier.....along with a number of other crimes in the 6 weeks beforehand.

 

[aa9511]

Who knows? The guy is a sadist.

The towels were found near Meredith's head sticking out from under the duvet soaked in blood so my theory is they may have been used to cover her head during the sexual assault.

Yes, near her head to stop the heavy blood flow from her neck. That makes a lot more sense to me than what others have suggested.

I thought we were supposed to go with the "simpler" theory, at least that's what I've heard many times to explain Amanda and RS's innocence?

 

[aa9511]

Of course, not every single scenario could be ruled out. But if the evidence suggests an alternative reading of the evidence, you cannot rule out that the situation occurred, bringing reasonable doubt. Here, you cannot rule out the lone wolf theory of one person doing the actual attack. That is something even the prosecutor has suggested - They think that the scene requires 2 people to hold her down but they cannot rule out that 1 person could physically do it.

99% of crimes of this sort are committed by lone perps so why RG would not be able to physically kill MK alone has always been one of the state's weakest arguments, IMO. MK was not some 6'5 kick boxer aiming for a fight. She had no chance against RG

I also don't get the argument that AK only had an incentive to clean. RG did too - he wanted the common areas to be clean or at least not look like a murder happened to buy him some time. Any criminal would do that. If he cleaned it up some, no one would notice till the next morning re murder, giving him time to dispose of bloody clothes, gather plans for fleeing, etc. he did not know when AK would be back, if she returned that night, she could have sounded the alarm then. RG could have made it look at least presentable, locked the door, covered MK so someone would think she was sleeping, and then had some time to think what he was going to do.

That is a perfectly reasonable alternative that could explain any cleaning

bbm

There is absolutely no evidence, IMO, that RG did any cleaning. We can't just make up evidence when there isn't any!!

 

[aa9511]

Yes, this list is only my own reflections - certainly not definitive about the case. Just what I myself personally felt sure of, and then questioned.

And yes, you are right in all you say, and about the small bathroom.

And to itemize does not give any accurate conclusions, as you say - just is a record of my own questioning. I understand that often it is things taken together - and not standing separately - which form a conclusion. I am just a bit neurotic with list making

Thanks as always for your excellent input! PS: Of course I had taken the laptop records seriously, and then had read on a pro-innocence site that there was activity on the laptop that evening. See what I mean? Each side knocks the other down

bbm


LOL! Yes, I know what you mean. Thanks for the reply!

 

[MichaelSmith]

Yes, near her head to stop the heavy blood flow from her neck. That makes a lot more sense to me than what others have suggested.

I thought we were supposed to go with the "simpler" theory, at least that's what I've heard many times to explain Amanda and RS's innocence?

This case has been rife with theories for years. Each to their own I guess. I've seen people speculate Guede was a patsy, a gimp, a victim or some sort of dupe who was tricked into raping Meredith... and now according to the new prosecutor..... he was a smelly Ivorian who didn't flush the toilet which upset Meredith leading to Amanda & Raffaele helping him murder and rape her.

:ufo:

 

[aa9511]

Yes, I understand all your points. And I myself got to thinking about certain things RE the lone wolf theory - such as when Massei says that if Guede were the lone wolf, and MK came home, he would have left by the front door---yet MK had locked it so Guede was trapped inside at that point.

Insofar as the little things like the lamp, sometimes "the devil is in the details".

I always wind up thinking that perhaps RG was a lone wolf, yet Knox and Sollecito felt implicated as they had put him up to it in some way. There does not seem to be enough signs of them in the murder room. IDK.....

bbm

About a week or so ago, there was discussion on here about the cut to Rudy's finger. Of course, they don't know 100% if that was from the murder, but I would bet 99.999999% that it is, especially since I have seen Jodi Arias had cut on same exact finger after her stabbing. I think it's when the knife slips because it's slippery, and the finger gets cut.

So if he cut his finger during the stabbing, we would expect more of his DNA to be in the room. That only makes sense, as he would have been bleeding from that finger.

So that's one theory that I have.

Amanda and RS could have been mainly restraining Meredith, which is why they didn't get cut fingers, or maybe they did some stabbing too but just didn't cut their fingers. IDK.

I realize that to get to a "not guilty," we're not supposed to suggest theories that would be unfavorable to Amanda and RS, but I don't see why we can't if we want to get to the truth. Which is the point, I believe.

 

[Amber29]

Massei pretty much bought the whole state case. They destroyed their credibility by buying some of the silly arguments too. They could easily have found the guilty without making themselves look like they are the pawn of the prosecutor.

This was a pattern for Massei. In many places they just completely ignored evidence or they interpreted evidence so it 100 percent had to be in the state's favor. As such they ignored the possibility that the assault could have happened later.

Hellmann did the exact opposite as what you describe Massei doing. Except Hellmann had to take RGs cassation ruling into account and failed to even do that.

RG was convicted in compliance with others and was not charged with breaking and entering. Not because B&E is the lesser of the two evils and they thought "well he's already charged with murder" but because they don't think he came in through that window.

So the defense likely wont argue lone wolf in the closing. So try to explain the evidence away without using that scenario.

 

[aa9511]

BBM - I agree with all.

I have read and known of many cases that follow this same basic plot: Break and entry which escalates to rape and murder as a young female was discovered to be home. Yes, AK and RS can be brought in, but it has to be for different reasons than that the lone wolf theory is impossible.

It is extremely possible, so Knox and Sollecito have to be shown to somehow have been a party to it for some reason. I think a case can be made for that, but it has to move along very different lines. Such as clean-up, simulation, holes in their stories, signs of pre-knowledge, etc. And then a theory must arise from those facts, if proven to be solid.

I respectfully disagree. Yes, you can find similar "plot lines" with the lone wolf theory. I'm not denying that. Yes, the "plot line" makes a lot of sense.

But each case has different and unique evidence.

We cannot just go lumping all cases together with similar "plot lines."

That is not how it works.

If that were the case, what is the point of individualized trials?

They could just have one mass trial every 2-3 months for different "categories" of cases - rape/murder, burglary/murder, close relative/murder, business associate/murder, drug/murder, accidental/murder, etc.. Just put all the defendants together and hold one trial for all of them, with a set "standard" of evidence for each category already established.

Just present that "standard set" of evidence for the jury, jury comes to a decidion, either imprison all of them or release all of them. Do same for each category of murder. Repeat every 2-3 months.

See what I mean?

 

[Amber29]

[/B]

bbm

About a week or so ago, there was discussion on here about the cut to Rudy's finger. Of course, they don't know 100% if that was from the murder, but I would bet 99.999999% that it is, especially since I have seen Jodi Arias had cut on same exact finger after her stabbing. I think it's when the knife slips because it's slippery, and the finger gets cut.

So if he cut his finger during the stabbing, we would expect more of his DNA to be in the room. That only makes sense, as he would have been bleeding from that finger.

So that's one theory that I have.

Amanda and RS could have been mainly restraining Meredith, which is why they didn't get cut fingers, or maybe they did some stabbing too but just didn't cut their fingers. IDK.

I realize that to get to a "not guilty," we're not supposed to suggest theories that would be unfavorable to Amanda and RS, but I don't see why we can't if we want to get to the truth. Which is the point, I believe.

Yes to add to this. If he were bleeding and "cleaned up" in the small bathroom is more reason to think his DNA would've been found in there.

 

[SMK]

bbm

There is absolutely no evidence, IMO, that RG did any cleaning. We can't just make up evidence when there isn't any!!

One thing I always wondered about the clean-up: Since the mop did not show any signs of being used, what were they supposed to have used in the process? Did they look for rags, paper towels in the garbage? I just find it odd that nothing was ever found....

 

[Amber29]

Yes, I understand all your points. And I myself got to thinking about certain things RE the lone wolf theory - such as when Massei says that if Guede were the lone wolf, and MK came home, he would have left by the front door---yet MK had locked it so Guede was trapped inside at that point.

Insofar as the little things like the lamp, sometimes "the devil is in the details".

I always wind up thinking that perhaps RG was a lone wolf, yet Knox and Sollecito felt implicated as they had put him up to it in some way. There does not seem to be enough signs of them in the murder room. IDK.....

Why could RG not go out the same window he had come through? If he can scale the wall, he can hang from the window ledge and drop down to get out.
(I don't believe the lone wolf, just giving thoughts)

 

[SMK]

I respectfully disagree. Yes, you can find similar "plot lines" with the lone wolf theory. I'm not denying that. Yes, the "plot line" makes a lot of sense.

But each case has different and unique evidence.

We cannot just go lumping all cases together with similar "plot lines."

That is not how it works.

If that were the case, what is the point of individualized trials?

They could just have one mass trial every 2-3 months for different "categories" of cases - rape/murder, burglary/murder, close relative/murder, business associate/murder, drug/murder, accidental/murder, etc.. Just put all the defendants together and hold one trial for all of them, with a set "standard" of evidence for each category already established.

Just present that "standard set" of evidence for the jury, jury comes to a decidion, either imprison all of them or release all of them. Do same for each category of murder. Repeat every 2-3 months.

See what I mean?

Yes, of course I do see and understand. I think what I meant is that, unfortunately, I have known of so many cases (one in my family) where there has been this break-in which escalates in the presence of a woman found alone. And sadly - although I have no idea why this would be - I can name 6 cases where the perpetrator was black, and known to the woman he robbed/raped/murdered (as a friend, as someone that was known through work or around town). And prior to the crime, he was not seen as dangerous in any way, or as capable of doing such an act, or even wanting to do it. I am not racist so I will assume coincidence or some social reason. Of course this does not prove a thing about Guede or what happened to Kercher.

Yes, every case must be judged individually. I guess there is just a familiarity about such a scenario. I'd be lying if I said there wasn't. I think when I look at the crime scene photos of MK's bedroom, there is an intuitive sense that she was alone with Guede. Of course, this cannot be viewed as evidence in any sense. But can others picture all 3 of them in there ? (I don't mean because the room was small; I mean it just doesn't make sense. ) Guede's dna was found on MK's tampon: What were Knox and Sollecito doing at that point? And on her purse? Why not theirs? Just questions that pop up in the mind. This is why when I try and fit Knox and Sollectio in, I feel they had a peripheral role.....more grist for the mill....

 

[SMK]

Why could RG not go out the same window he had come through? If he can scale the wall, he can hang from the window ledge and drop down to get out.
(I don't believe the lone wolf, just giving thoughts)

I am not sold on it either.....just reflecting......Yes, that is a point, finding the front door locked, he could have gone back through the window. Unless Meredith encountered him in the hallway... You would think, though, that hearing someone, she would have shut her door and locked it and phoned 112. Unless she saw it was Guede, and at first thought he was there legitimately. Or if Knox and Sollecito were with him.....

 

[sherlockh]

It's about weighing the evidence and credibility of witnesses and experts. That's how trials work.....witnesses get impeached, discredited and their testimony rejected. Trials aren't about blind faith in what the prosecution says and accepting it unquestionably.

A career criminal convicted heroin dealer & junkie who was high on heroin the night of the murder and was found by a journalist a year later is simply not credible and has to be rejected. Even more so when this witness has testified previously in two murder trials for the same prosecutor. It works both ways because if the defence put forward someone like this giving them an alibi he'd be mocked and laughed out of court and rightfully so.

Same thing for Kokomani. He was a wife beating alcoholic cocaine dealer who fled to Albania and told a fanciful story about olives, gaps in teeth etc etc.

The print expert Mignini used was a hired gun. The DNA is junk science. The ear witness was an elderly lady who took 25 days to come forward even though she admits watching all the police and ambulance arrive Nov 2. She was totally confused about a lot of things even saying she heard running on grass. Ear witnesses are notorious for being unreliable.....eyewitnesses too.

Why shouldn't the highly distinguished defence & independent experts being taken seriously? The prosecution was never able to impeach them saying they weren't qualified.

Like I said, it's all about weighing the evidence and credibility of witnesses especially when an extraordinary conspiracy theory is put forward where two students dating a week are suppose to have somehow/somewhere teamed up with a random third person they didn't even know to rape/murder a friend within an hour after watching a movie and then after he leaves they somehow correctly guess his MO and stage it as a burglary looking very similar to a crime he's linked to two weeks earlier.....along with a number of other crimes in the 6 weeks beforehand.

You basically prove my point. Attacking witnesses...check. Attacking prosecution..check. Attacking experts...check.

On the other side...'highly distinguished defense'

 

[Katody]

Depends how accurate these maps are. I would expect another shoe print of Guede by Meredith's bedroom door, and when he passed Knox's door towards the kitchen area. These areas seem rather large without any shoe prints.

Given that only one of his shoes was bloody I think the two prints near Meredith's door are plenty. (See attachment)
There is some distance between the shoeprint marked "2" and the hallway door indeed. It was the area most trampled by the first responders on November 2, as it was the only access way to the murder room. I think it's possible the print that was there got obliterated before anybody noticed it.
What do you think?

Then there are the 'missing' prints. No prints of him walking back and forth to the bed, putting the pillow under Meredith, placing the duvet, closing the door. No prints of him walking back and forth to the bathroom.

I think not every step of his left a noticeable trace. His shoe got a little bloody during the attack, leaving faint fading prints on the pillowcase but it wasn't leaving marks anymore by the time he walked to the bathroom. He stepped in blood again some time later, after returning to the room.

 

[sherlockh]

One thing I always wondered about the clean-up: Since the mop did not show any signs of being used, what were they supposed to have used in the process? Did they look for rags, paper towels in the garbage? I just find it odd that nothing was ever found....

Why did Knox make up a story of walking the streets with a mop? I don't think they would have dumped bloody rags/mop in their own garbage. Sollecito had a car after all. Nothing was found, so we can only speculate what was used.

 

[SMK]

Why did Knox make up a story of walking the streets with a mop? I don't think they would have dumped bloody rags/mop in their own garbage. Sollecito had a car after all. Nothing was found, so we can only speculate what was used.

OK, yes. That is a good point. And I suppose they could have disposed of any rags, etc. I wonder if dumpsters were checked locally.

 

[aa9511]

Yes to add to this. If he were bleeding and "cleaned up" in the small bathroom is more reason to think his DNA would've been found in there.

Yes, absolutely. Add to that the fact that the bathroom looks pretty darn cleaned-up to me. Not like someone bloody from head to toe cleaned himself up in there!

 

[MichaelSmith]

You basically prove my point. Attacking witnesses...check. Attacking prosecution..check. Attacking experts...check.

On the other side...'highly distinguished defense'

That's the way it works. Welcome to trial watching and being a cyber juror. It's no different than ALV or Dr Dick being mocked and laughed out of court during the Arias trial. Have you got anything on Amanda & Raffaele's defence experts who testified in Italy and why their opinions should be rejected or they weren't qualified vs the prosecution experts and why they are superior?

Have you got anything impeaching Amanda or Raffaele's character witnesses who said they were normal and good people? Have you got anything discrediting Filomena or Laura who said Amanda was a normal girl and Meredith and Amanda were friends?

I could go on and on but that's how trials are decided. It's about weighing the evidence and witnesses, what it means, is it credible and the qualifications of those testifying..... etc etc. It's not blasphemy to reject prosecution evidence or witnesses

 

[aa9511]

One thing I always wondered about the clean-up: Since the mop did not show any signs of being used, what were they supposed to have used in the process? Did they look for rags, paper towels in the garbage? I just find it odd that nothing was ever found....

If they did it, they would have had to have done something with their bloody clothes, too. Maybe that's what the bleach was for at RS's house. Did they ever find the clothes they were supposedly wearing that day? The bleach could have been to clean up rags and stuff that they brought over from RS's house, and then they went back and cleaned everything at his house. I don't know if anyone checked rags and things at his house?

I thought I read somewhere that they never found Rudy's clothes, or did they even know what he was wearing that day?