Apology To The Ramseys?

[Wudge]

:clap:

I'm still working on figuring out what my mistake(s) were so I will Bee back with my apology the minute it dawns on me! :woohoo:

The usual suspects are: abandoning the presumption of innocence, rushing to judgment, assuming uncorroborated facts are true, fallacious logic, false premises, and tea-leaf reading a person's behavior.

 

[narlacat]

I still fail to see what about my post was chastising??
I am simply going to presume that your reading of the evidence was read as well as my post.
THe DNA cannot be on CODIS without 13 markers. It is on CODIS so therefore it must be concluded that it has 13.
The police did not immediatly or any time quickly get it together and when they finally approached anything remotely close to "getting it together" their recourse was to blame the parents by leaking outright lies to the media in order to cover their own butts.
I see nothing wrong with the time that the GJ met furthermore the women you use as examples simply killed their children they did not torture them.
I am sure it was more then just some gruesome photos that led them to that conclusion.
SHiller is not an exactly credible person when it comes to this case.
Mary Lacy obviously is not running around boulder like some crazy biased feminist and if that was the case she simply could have elected to prove that John Ramsey did this and poor Patsy vicitm went along rather then search for some intruder.
If fact she talked to profilers and knows evidence we (the public) are not privvy to thereby being in a position to make a better judgement about what happend then we are.
Lou Smit was involved in the investigation very early on and the only arguement so far that I have heard to discredit him is the he "befriened the Ramsey's"
I hardly think he would jeapardize a perfect carreer record by lying to the world because he befriended the killers.
He looked at the evidence and saw intruder.
That is good enough for me.

There were 10 markers, not 13.
Actually I don't think it was even 10, I know it didn't make 13.

Lou Smit had been on the case less than 72 hours, nowhere near enough time to review all the evidence and he was declaring the Ram's innocent.
His religious beliefs and his praying with the Ram's had much more to do with his theory than any of the his so called evidence.

 

[Britt]

There were 10 markers, not 13.

That's right... barely 10.

"On Dec. 11th, 2003, the family was advised by the (Boulder) D.A.'s investigative team that the Denver Police Department DNA lab had successfully identified the 10th DNA marker from the blood samples found on the underwear of JonBenet. Consequently, all of the state and federal DNA data systems now have the entire profile of the unknown deposit, thanks to the identification of the 10th marker."

Edited to add another quote from the article:

It is true that identifying the tenth genetic marker enabled Ramsey investigators to finally enter the unidentified genetic profile into the FBI's Combined DNA Index System, a national database.

http://www.supportramseytruth.com/05182004NEWS-CharlieBrennan-DNA.txt

 

[RiverRat]

The usual suspects are: abandoning the presumption of innocence, rushing to judgment, assuming uncorroborated facts are true, fallacious logic, false premises, and tea-leaf reading a person's behavior.

No one like that in my world! :woohoo:

 

[BBB167893]

"I see nothing wrong with the time that the GJ met"

I do! You can't retain anything that way.

"furthermore the women you use as examples simply killed their children they did not torture them."

There's NO evidence JB was tortured, either. Werner Spitz summed it up when he said that someone STAGED a violent strangulation and sexual assault after she was rendered unconscious.

"I am sure it was more then just some gruesome photos that led them to that conclusion."

Well, they said the coroner's descriptions had something to do with it.

"SHiller is not an exactly credible person when it comes to this case."

That we agree on.

"Mary Lacy obviously is not running around boulder like some crazy biased feminist and if that was the case she simply could have elected to prove that John Ramsey did this and poor Patsy vicitm went along rather then search for some intruder."

Oh, yeah? Remember the University of CO scandal?

"Lou Smit had been on the case less than 72 hours, nowhere near enough time to review all the evidence and he was declaring the Ram's innocent. His religious beliefs and his praying with the Ram's had much more to do with his theory than any of the his so called evidence."

Absolutely right!

 

[Amraann]

There were 10 markers, not 13.
Actually I don't think it was even 10, I know it didn't make 13.

Lou Smit had been on the case less than 72 hours, nowhere near enough time to review all the evidence and he was declaring the Ram's innocent.
His religious beliefs and his praying with the Ram's had much more to do with his theory than any of the his so called evidence.

An 18 year vetran Homicide detective does not all of a sudden become a slave to his emotions and religeon.
If someone has evidence that during his 18 years he was biased towards those with religious beliefs then I would agree.
Nothing of that sort has ever come to light and in 18 years I am sure he has met many that were devout and guilty.

Narlacat it could not be on CODIS without 13.

 

[wenchie]

An 18 year vetran Homicide detective does not all of a sudden become a slave to his emotions and religeon.
If someone has evidence that during his 18 years he was biased towards those with religious beliefs then I would agree.
Nothing of that sort has ever come to light and in 18 years I am sure he has met many that were devout and guilty.

Narlacat it could not be on CODIS without 13.

Do you know of another case where the first thing he did was sit down and pray with the main suspects?

Did he ever before have a close working relationship with the main suspects and their spin team?

Do you think he was paid to do that crapumentary he made, or did he donate his time and money for it?

 

[tumble]

"Lou Smit had been on the case less than 72 hours, nowhere near enough time to review all the evidence and he was declaring the Ram's innocent."

I wonder what LS would say if JR would confess...
"Wow, tell me, did you enter through the basement window?"

 

[wenchie]

Let me clearify because somehow I think you are misconstruing my posts in regaurd to this matter.

Any person in possession of child porn should never be permitted to walk the streets again.
I am unclear as to what your disputing about this?

I thought that's what you were saying.

But we usually base our punishments (in this country) on an escalating scale as to harm done.

If every person who was found looking at child porn was given a life sentence with no possibility of parole, what do we do to those who've actually raped a child? Draw and quarter them? Cut them to pieces in public?

I personally believe that if every pc in this country was checked and a life sentence given to anyone who had a trace of it - there would be millions of men doing life sentences. It would be total chaos, and would turn this country upside down. We might as well turn the entire U.S.A. into one gigantic prison.


It's ugly, it's disgusting, and it's illegal - but it's not necessarily the people who are looking at it who are doing the most harm - it's those who CREATE it and those who actually DO the acts shown in it.


From what I've heard, JMK had some deleted photos on a computer disk. It's horrible, but I don't think it should put him on death row.

 

[Amraann]

We can all go back and forth debating the Ramsey's and Smit's behavoirs for years (say like 10!! as both sides have) and the bottom line is that people when evaluating anothers behavoir bring their own personal experiences into the question.

There really is no right or wrong as its all just opinion as to how we think we would behave or how we think others should behave in that situation.

I would like to comment on some more concrete evidence that we have debated and that is the CODIS system.

It is constantly debated that the DNA is useless. Or doesn't have enough markers. So I did some research and I apologize but Narlacat may very well be correct.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_DNA_Index_System

Unknown DNA has to have at least 10 markers to be accpeted onto CODIS.
However my confusion stemmed from the fact that any convicted offender's DNA must have 13 markers to be submitted.
CODIS is primarily a national database for DNA data accumulated at local and state levels. All 50 states participate. In order to decrease the number of irrelevant matches, the convicted offender database requires all 13 CODIS STRs to be present for a profile upload. Forensic unknown profiles only require 10 of the STRs to be present for an upload

I will rely on the notion that 10 must be enough if the scientists feel it is so.
Also CODIS has very stringent guidelines for the labs and personal that can add to their Database as well as the collection of the DNA.

 

[Amraann]

I thought that's what you were saying.

But we usually base our punishments (in this country) on an escalating scale as to harm done.

If every person who was found looking at child porn was given a life sentence with no possibility of parole, what do we do to those who've actually raped a child? Draw and quarter them? Cut them to pieces in public?

I personally believe that if every pc in this country was checked and a life sentence given to anyone who had a trace of it - there would be millions of men doing life sentences. It would be total chaos, and would turn this country upside down. We might as well turn the entire U.S.A. into one gigantic prison.


It's ugly, it's disgusting, and it's illegal - but it's not necessarily the people who are looking at it who are doing the most harm - it's those who CREATE it and those who actually DO the acts shown in it.


From what I've heard, JMK had some deleted photos on a computer disk. It's horrible, but I don't think it should put him on death row.

Wenchie .... IMO looking at child porn makes one a pedophile as its the desire or fantasy of sex with a child that makes one a pedophile not the act.
For legal purposes as you stated due to harm done the law doles out differing punishments.
I do not believe that there would be millions of men convicted.
If that is the case then it would explain all the children molested in our society. I personally feel that YES they should be in prison for the rest of their lives as should child molestors.
If that means millions then so be it. All the safer be our children from these walking breathing filth.

Society has turned the other cheek in regaurds to our children for far far to long. As far as a harsher punishment for actual molestors?
Draw and quatering is not a bad idea but since the DP takes up much court time and cost they can all just rot in prison forever.
I personally do not want someone looking at porn pictures of children near my children anymore then one who has advanced to acting on it near them.
They all belong locked away forever.
Financially speaking the money it takes to keep track of these perverts before they attack again would be better spent just locking them up forever.
There should not be a second chance to harm a child or advance to that level.

 

[BBB167893]

Narlacat's no dummy.

 

[southcitymom]

I thought that's what you were saying.

But we usually base our punishments (in this country) on an escalating scale as to harm done.

If every person who was found looking at child porn was given a life sentence with no possibility of parole, what do we do to those who've actually raped a child? Draw and quarter them? Cut them to pieces in public?

I personally believe that if every pc in this country was checked and a life sentence given to anyone who had a trace of it - there would be millions of men doing life sentences. It would be total chaos, and would turn this country upside down. We might as well turn the entire U.S.A. into one gigantic prison.


It's ugly, it's disgusting, and it's illegal - but it's not necessarily the people who are looking at it who are doing the most harm - it's those who CREATE it and those who actually DO the acts shown in it.


From what I've heard, JMK had some deleted photos on a computer disk. It's horrible, but I don't think it should put him on death row.

While I agree with a lot of what you are saying, I want to point out that if there weren't a market for child porn (ie, the millions of users that probably have some on their PCs), there would not be a need to create it and do these unthinkable acts. So the argument could be easily made that the end user is every bit as guilty as the creator.

If I look at child porn because that sort of thing arouses me, I am as guilty as the kiddie rapist in giving this industry the life it seems to have in this world. And, in my passive role, I do great harm to children, no matter what I might want to tell myself (ie. - that if I just look, it's victimless and not harming anyone or whatever delusion I would have to come up with to make myself feel okay).

 

[Peter Hamilton]

southcitymom,I agree--Its just like the fact that the hookers and Johns are equally guilty--cops used to arrest only the hookers--but the last ten years they're arresting the Johns also--some have even lost their cars!---without Johns,there'd be no hookers,and without child porn watchers,ther'd be no child porn on the internet--Google has recently cracked down bigtime on their porn sites weeding out the child porn after the justice dept put pressure on them

 

[wenchie]

Wenchie .... IMO looking at child porn makes one a pedophile as its the desire or fantasy of sex with a child that makes one a pedophile not the act.
For legal purposes as you stated due to harm done the law doles out differing punishments.
I do not believe that there would be millions of men convicted.
If that is the case then it would explain all the children molested in our society. I personally feel that YES they should be in prison for the rest of their lives as should child molestors.
If that means millions then so be it. All the safer be our children from these walking breathing filth.

Society has turned the other cheek in regaurds to our children for far far to long. As far as a harsher punishment for actual molestors?
Draw and quatering is not a bad idea but since the DP takes up much court time and cost they can all just rot in prison forever.
I personally do not want someone looking at porn pictures of children near my children anymore then one who has advanced to acting on it near them.
They all belong locked away forever.
Financially speaking the money it takes to keep track of these perverts before they attack again would be better spent just locking them up forever.
There should not be a second chance to harm a child or advance to that level.

I think there is more awareness of, more caring about, and stricter punishments for child molestation than ever before in history.

But, there's still a huge difference between the thought and the deed.

What I don't understand is why more effort isn't put in to shutting down all the child porn sites.

But, again: just because YOU think that every man who looks at this trash should be locked up for the rest of his life doesn't mean that it is every going to happen.

You don't want Karr to ever have one day of freedom again for the remainder of his life, but that's not going to happen.

In my perspective, he comes nowhere near the evil of the Ramseys. They (or, she - Patsy), killed their daughter either accidently or intentionally, and then to protect themselves, they left her body on a cold, dirty basement floor and tried to ruin the lives of others by pointing the finger at them.


Personally, I'd much rather see child killers like them "never walking the streets again".

Edited to add: Karr is just creepy enough to be the perfect foil for team Ramsey. When the Colorado charges are dropped before trial (as they WILL be), the world will still be talking about the "predator" who broke into the home and killed Jonbenet - rather than look at the true killers.



People, in general, are completely gullible and credulous about anything they hear on the tube.

 

[southcitymom]

southcitymom,I agree--Its just like the fact that the hookers and Johns are equally guilty--cops used to arrest only the hookers--but the last ten years they're arresting the Johns also--some have even lost their cars!---without Johns,there'd be no hookers,and without child porn watchers,ther'd be no child porn on the internet--Google has recently cracked down bigtime on their porn sites weeding out the child porn after the justice dept put pressure on them

I hear you about the hooker/John thing. I am of the personal opinion that prostitution should be legalized.

I do think the internet has truly revolutionized kiddie porn - the ease of access and identification of others with like kinks has made it take on a much broader life of its own. I do think more is being done and should continue to be done about getting as much of that stuff off the Web as possible.

 

[Amraann]

I think there is more awareness of, more caring about, and stricter punishments for child molestation than ever before in history.

But, there's still a huge difference between the thought and the deed.

What I don't understand is why more effort isn't put in to shutting down all the child porn sites.

But, again: just because YOU think that every man who looks at this trash should be locked up for the rest of his life doesn't mean that it is every going to happen.

You don't want Karr to ever have one day of freedom again for the remainder of his life, but that's not going to happen.

In my perspective, he comes nowhere near the evil of the Ramseys. They (or, she - Patsy), killed their daughter either accidently or intentionally, and then to protect themselves, they left her body on a cold, dirty basement floor and tried to ruin the lives of others by pointing the finger at them.


Personally, I'd much rather see child killers like them "never walking the streets again".

Edited to add: Karr is just creepy enough to be the perfect foil for team Ramsey. When the Colorado charges are dropped before trial (as they WILL be), the world will still be talking about the "predator" who broke into the home and killed Jonbenet - rather than look at the true killers.



People, in general, are completely gullible and credulous about anything they hear on the tube.

I did not say every man who looks at porn. I said every man who looks at CHILD porn. The very act of wishing to look at children in sexually explicit poses makes one a pedophile so to wait for them to act on it and ruin some poor child's life is ridiculous.

As far as Karr goes? If the shoe fits wear it. My feelings on this do not soley pertain to Karr. He just happens to be the perv of the hour these days.

I do not believe the ramsey's killed their daughter ..
But lets say I agree they did.... Hell yes they should be locked up (or the remaining of the pair)
However I disagree that parents who lose it and kill their child are more dangerous then a pedophile.
Pedophiles keep repeating thereby detroying more lives.

 

[southcitymom]

However I disagree that parents who lose it and kill their child are more dangerous then a pedophile.
Pedophiles keep repeating thereby detroying more lives.

Well said. Both crimes are heinous, but pedophiles definitely harm more victims.

 

[Jayelles]

An 18 year vetran Homicide detective does not all of a sudden become a slave to his emotions and religeon.
If someone has evidence that during his 18 years he was biased towards those with religious beliefs then I would agree.
Nothing of that sort has ever come to light and in 18 years I am sure he has met many that were devout and guilty.

Narlacat it could not be on CODIS without 13.

Amra - samples can be entered into CODIS with 10 markers. The Ramsey sample got entered 2/3 years ago. The sample "just" made it.

 

[wenchie]

Well said. Both crimes are heinous, but pedophiles definitely harm more victims.

Please tell me, what more harm could there be than DEAD?????

The Ramseys (probably) accidently PARTLY killed their daughter and then finished her off to protect themselves.

Then, they ruined lives, slandered LE, wrote a book about the murder posing themselves as victims and saying that the money would go to their daughter's charity fund - but kept every penny of it for themselves.

If that's not evil and dangerous, I don't know what else is.