Appeals Court: TX Had No Right to Remove Kids

[mykodiak]

I have to admit that this one surprised even me! http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/24/shocking-pics-of-jeffs-shown-in-hearing/

They have the actual pic in a slideshow on the front page of gosanangelo.com. Wow!

 

[Moe]

http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_9361767?source=rv

From the Salt Lake Tribune, disgusting.

 

[SewingDeb]

Kissing pics at this link:

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/23/hearing-includes-photos-of-sect-leader-kissing/

 

[cook78]

Jessop's attorney, Pat Matassarin, dismissed the photos.
"For one thing, the guy who did it is in jail," she said, referring to Jeffs and adding that the actions of a family member should not be used to remove his child.

Perhaps, but the fact that the mans photo is EVERYWHERE, in all of the houses, in every room, even taped inside the childrens Bibles and Book of Moman tells us that it DOESN'T MATTER that he's in jail. He is like a God to these people. Of course, they follow in his footsteps.

I'm SOOOOOOO glad the state is filing an appeal!

 

[mysteriew]

Go Judge Mather,go!!!

Under the previous circumstances without the evidence being given in full court, it wouldn't get publicized. And if need be I think that Mather would have kept it under seal. But they got her po'd now!

The CPS was bound by confidentialty rules, the state was being circumspect. And the Judge was trying to handle the hearings in as confidential a manner as possible. As such the FLDS had the upper hand publicity wise. Whatever they chose to say in the media, no one could really contradict. But with the Appeal court ruling, now all gloves are off! I hope they publicize every bit of the evidence!

 

[Trino]

Kissing pics at this link:

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/23/hearing-includes-photos-of-sect-leader-kissing/

Gross. Her brother is just as messed up as Jeffs:

"Rulon Daniel Jessop, the girl's brother and the infant's father, said he sees nothing wrong with his children being in the same house with underage "sister wives" of much older men. "It seemed a little wild to me," Jessop testified, "but you see a lot more wild things driving down the streets of the city at night. I do not consider a girl kissing a man sexual abuse."

 

[SewingDeb]

Yes, he is.

 

[mysteriew]

The impression I had over what was said in the articles, was that perhaps/maybe the young girl might be married to Jeffs.

They made a point of saying that in the FLDS touching between males and females is discouraged unless they are married. Yet here is this pic of Warren with a young girl doing more than touching. And certainly the state has a strong interest in that pic, by them bringing it up in her brother's hearing. I think they were probing and hoping to get an admission.

 

[faw720]

What a gross photo!! However, I have to say that the young girl didn't look as if she was being forced. Evidently they had done an excellent job of brainwashing her.

 

[barb0301]

What a gross photo!! However, I have to say that the young girl didn't look as if she was being forced. Evidently they had done an excellent job of brainwashing her.

Unfortunately, that's what happens. And that's what CPS is so up in arms against. The girls in the FLDS are all raised to think that it is not only right, but a "privilege" to be married off to a man at a young age and to bear children.

 

[mykodiak]

An article in the San Angelo Standard Times has a new twist on the appeals court decision. http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/26/court-ruling-puts-everyone-on-hold/

The appellate court's strongly worded opinion - which wiped out large portions of the state's case against the FLDS parents - was perhaps too strong, said Malonis, an attorney for a mother and several children in the case.
"Just looking at the ruling from the Court of Appeals, there are a lot of gaps," she said. "The Court of Appeals had some very strong language. I could see a (higher) court taking issue with it."
For example, she said, the three justices who issued the opinion - W. Kenneth Law, Bob Pemberton and Alan Waldrop - said the state presented "no evidence" of physical harm. In fact, a CPS witness testified at length during the April 17-18 hearing that children were at risk of hampered brain development under the authoritarian sect lifestyle.

Further down in the article it mentions that Judge Walther was preferring mediation prior to reconciliation of families. Now the appeals process could hold everyone in limbo for a lengthy amount of time.

 

[Details]

...The children as I've said should never have been separated from the love and compassion of caring willing capable parents....I do not relinquish my rights and authority in my home, property and children.....

See - as I see it - the difference is that these parents have relinquished their rights and authority in their homes, property, and particularly children. Belonging to the cult means that when Jeffs points to your child and says, "She marries him" - that's what happens. That's not what I call love and compassion, nor a capable parent - if they are even the parents of the children. Their reluctance to identify mothers and fathers speaks volumes about the real issues here. Many ex-FLDS have said that the children are shuffled around - even they don't know who their real mother is.

The appelate court was wrong, IMO, and I look forward to the appeal. The compound was all one household under the complete and utter control of a group that institutionalized child abuse (not only the underage marriages, but the child labor, reassigning wives and children, under-education, and grooming of the children). It's not about who the parents are, not even about the people who the children call mother and father - it's about who has control over those children. Since it's the same people for the entire compound, considering the compound as one household is correct.

 

[Pepper]

I haven't been keeping up and as closely following as some of you here dedicated sleuthers have been. I removed myself when I felt I had my say and not whole lot more to contribute a few weeks ago.

Truly, and some others who posted with me. Here I am again. I made my opinions clear, and this ruling is only the beginnings of straightning out this mess. The children as I've said should never have been separated from the love and compassion of caring willing capable parents.

Our Governemnt crossed the line once again, and I'm big on my Government, love it and support it. I love America. Home of the Brave.

But it was an ego power pushing control jerks in the midst of this chaos who had some authority and did this autrocity to not only these people, but traumatized every parent in America who has enough vision to see what could happen in their very own homes too, just because somebody says so, or cuz somebody thinks they have more say so over your home and children than I do. I do not relinquish my rights and authority in my home, property and children.

I welcome my fellow sleuthers comments, either way of the side you may stand, hey to my buddies here, even the ones that we didn't see eye to eye on, but snicker, I said so. I told ya this wasn't gonna fly.

This is a serious matter, and I'm jokin with my buds, peace everyone.

OK KL, you asked for it, so here goes! PLEASE, I beg of you, read Flora Jessop's website, read Carolyn Jessop's book, watch Laurie Allen's documentary! Please be informed!

I understand your fear and your compassion for "loving, compassionate, willing, caring parents." But I don't believe that we are dealing with those feelings with these parents. You are projecting your feelings for your children and/or your parents on these people. These people have been stripped of all their maternal/paternal love for their children by the FLDS, who discourages that kind of bonding. You must understand that many of these children cannot identify their natural parents! Many or most do not know when they were born! Of course the children want to return to the only home they know with the only parents they know. They don't know or understand that what they've been brought up with is unnatural.

I certainly have no fear that CPS or any governmental equilivant will barge into your home and steal your children away unless they have a concrete belief that the children are in danger.

 

[mysteriew]

I always find the Christian Science Monitor's view to be amusing.

But in this case, they do have something.



Page 1 of 2

Phoenix - Are the beliefs of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS), the polygamous sect that the state of Texas has also accused of child abuse, sufficient grounds for removing all the children from the group's compound in Eldorado, Texas?

The answer now lies in the hands of the Texas Supreme Court, and how it rules will help resolve a major church-state clash that began when Texas officials last month took some 460 minors from the sect's Yearning for Zion ranch after receiving phone calls from an alleged underage spouse complaining of physical abuse. That complaint, it turns out, was almost certainly a hoax – the first in a series of bad news for the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services (DFPS).

It also now appears that evidence about the sect's belief system that the state collected during the raid – and presented to a district court to justify its temporary removal of the children – is probably flawed. In the DFPS's biggest setback so far, a Texas appeals court on May 22 overturned the district court's decision to keep the children in state custody temporarily.

"Existence of the FLDS belief system as described by the [DFPS] witnesses, by itself, does not put children of FLDS parents in physical danger," the ruling read. "It is the imposition of certain alleged tenets of that system on specific individuals that may put them in physical danger."

The state's Supreme Court is expected to rule this week on DFPS's petition for emergency relief from the appeals court decision, possibly as early as Tuesday. If the appeals court decision stands, most of the children will be returned to their parents at the sect's ranch.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0527/p02s02-usju.html

 

[Pepper]

"Existence of the FLDS belief system as described by the [DFPS] witnesses, by itself, does not put children of FLDS parents in physical danger," the ruling read. "It is the imposition of certain alleged tenets of that system on specific individuals that may put them in physical danger."

Huh?

 

[gitana1]

If you read Elissa Wall's book, Stolen Innocence, you will not see evidence of horrific physical abuse in the home, as in Carolyn Jessop's book Escape. EW paints a picture of a fairly loving family and a very gentle, sweet mother who was a refuge, as all mother's should be, to EW. However, EW's mom was so religious, so highly enmeshed in the FLDS mindset, that she obeyed, almost entirely without question, what her "priesthood head" (husband) said, or what the prophet or his mouthpieces said. And therein lies the problem. Because of the dictates of the males whom she was compelled to obey, EW's mom abandoned several of her sons (one who she drove to the side of the highway and let out with not much more than the clothes on his back, another who was only around 12 years of age at the time), she allowed herself to be "reassigned" to another husband, taking all of her her children away from their father, not even able to say goodbye, and she allowed her 14 year old little girl to marry the 19 year old cousin the child loathed. According to the book, EW's mom was devasted by all of these things, but she felt she had no choice but to obey the dictates of this patriarchy. She even tried to keep encouraing her 14 year old daughter to obey and learn to love the cousin, despite knowing her daughter was traumatized, being raped by the man and wanting nothing more than to just be allowed to go home to her mommy. I believe there are families in the FLDS in which physical and sexual abuse are not occurring. I believe there are FLDS families that are affectionate with their children, adore their children and allow their kids to have fun. But, when you couple stories like Elissa Walls with the testimony of people like the couple who were fighting for the return of their infant, it is clear that the FLDS children are at great risk of harm under the care of their parents. These people are capitivated by their prophet and will obey him and their priesthood heads without question. Come on! The mother testifying stated that the photo of the 12 year old girl being embraced and kissed by Warren Jeffs was inappropriate, but she also said people are free to do what they want and that the prophet is "perfect"! Her husband stated that the photo of his little sister being kissed by Jeffs was "wild" and that it went against his religion, but he also said it was not sexual abuse! So, when it happens to his little girl I guess it will not be abuse then either? These people know that in their religion, behavior like that does not occur unless the parties are married. They are well aware that this little girl is married to 52 year old Warren Jeffs. But they denied knowing. So, we know they lie and we cannot believe anything they say, including that they will protect their kids and keep them from underage marriage. That's why CPS needed to act and needs to maintain involvement for years to come. It seems so clear to me. By the way, I saw a close up of some of the photos of WJ kissing the little girl and one was framed with the caption "Warren and Loretta, First Anniversary." It was also dated 2005, not 2006. So, I'm confused why the media keeps saying 2006. Also, that would make the little girl closer to 11 years old in the photo, and 10 when they married, if the media is right in saying she was born in 1994. This is their leader! They follow this man! How can anyone not be scared by this?

 

[Pepper]

Welcome gitana1. You said it beautifully! I haven't read Elissa Wall's book yet. I'm hoping someone will offer it on the WS book club as a loan.

 

[gitana1]

Thanks Pepper. I lent it to my mom but I would be happy to loan it to you after if you would like. It made me admire EW so much for her strength. Coupled with Carolyn Jessop and Flora Jessop's stories, it made me feel that only very inherently strong personalities are able to escape this group. EW was scared batty at the thought of leaving, even after being threatened with blood atonement at one time. She knew she would never again see her mother and little sisters, all of whom she adored. She did not want to abandon them. She also was very scared of going to hell, still believing alot of what she had been taught but not being able to live the life anymore. I really admire that. I don't tolerate change and I'm ridiculously close with my mother. I don't think I could have done what she did. I can't imagine what this poor girl went through having to make such a decision. She's tough. But what about all the girls who are not as strong? You know, all of this reminds me of what girls in certain areas of the middle east, like Saudi Arabia, go through. Arranged marriages, no freedom, unquestioning obedience, being trapped, child brides, etc. It's very strange that this is happening in the US.

 

[mysteriew]

If you read Elissa Wall's book, Stolen Innocence, you will not see evidence of horrific physical abuse in the home, as in Carolyn Jessop's book Escape. EW paints a picture of a fairly loving family and a very gentle, sweet mother who was a refuge, as all mother's should be, to EW. However, EW's mom was so religious, so highly enmeshed in the FLDS mindset, that she obeyed, almost entirely without question, what her "priesthood head" (husband) said, or what the prophet or his mouthpieces said. And therein lies the problem. Because of the dictates of the males whom she was compelled to obey, EW's mom abandoned several of her sons (one who she drove to the side of the highway and let out with not much more than the clothes on his back, another who was only around 12 years of age at the time), she allowed herself to be "reassigned" to another husband, taking all of her her children away from their father, not even able to say goodbye, and she allowed her 14 year old little girl to marry the 19 year old cousin the child loathed. According to the book, EW's mom was devasted by all of these things, but she felt she had no choice but to obey the dictates of this patriarchy. She even tried to keep encouraing her 14 year old daughter to obey and learn to love the cousin, despite knowing her daughter was traumatized, being raped by the man and wanting nothing more than to just be allowed to go home to her mommy. I believe there are families in the FLDS in which physical and sexual abuse are not occurring. I believe there are FLDS families that are affectionate with their children, adore their children and allow their kids to have fun. But, when you couple stories like Elissa Walls with the testimony of people like the couple who were fighting for the return of their infant, it is clear that the FLDS children are at great risk of harm under the care of their parents. These people are capitivated by their prophet and will obey him and their priesthood heads without question. Come on! The mother testifying stated that the photo of the 12 year old girl being embraced and kissed by Warren Jeffs was inappropriate, but she also said people are free to do what they want and that the prophet is "perfect"! Her husband stated that the photo of his little sister being kissed by Jeffs was "wild" and that it went against his religion, but he also said it was not sexual abuse! So, when it happens to his little girl I guess it will not be abuse then either? These people know that in their religion, behavior like that does not occur unless the parties are married. They are well aware that this little girl is married to 52 year old Warren Jeffs. But they denied knowing. So, we know they lie and we cannot believe anything they say, including that they will protect their kids and keep them from underage marriage. That's why CPS needed to act and needs to maintain involvement for years to come. It seems so clear to me. By the way, I saw a close up of some of the photos of WJ kissing the little girl and one was framed with the caption "Warren and Loretta, First Anniversary." It was also dated 2005, not 2006. So, I'm confused why the media keeps saying 2006. Also, that would make the little girl closer to 11 years old in the photo, and 10 when they married, if the media is right in saying she was born in 1994. This is their leader! They follow this man! How can anyone not be scared by this?

Excellent points. I too believe that some of the parents love their kids. And I believe that in many of the homes there isn't physical or sexual abuse. But I also believe that the parents will set their prophet above their children. If the prophet orders them to use harsh punishment for their children, they will (if they can't be quiet and 'sweet'. If the prophet orders them to abandon a child, they will. If the prophet orders that their young child must be married, they will. If the prophet orders that their child become a 26th "spiritual wife" they will walk her to the temple. Because of that attitude, because that situation is so ripe for the abuse, I believe that some abuse has already occurred. But I also think they don't see it as abuse. 'It is just the way things are', the way things have always been. They see it as normal parenting.

If separated from the church (or if the church would rethink their position on childrearing and young marriage), if the parents are 'retrained' and monitored, then many of them would be very good, even excellent parents. But they will have to be willing and accepting of the separating, training and monitoring and that is where I think they will fail.

 

[mollymalone]

Out of reportedly 10,000 members of the sect, I find it difficult to believe that ALL of them would be practicing abuse. Rather it's probably a core group of extended families close to the "power" base of the group. Although there probably are others throughout that numer who also rule with "iron hands" and abuse to be found I'm sure.

One thing to keep in mind, the ones who are monogamous, aren't monogamous by choice, since the prophet awards wives to the men based on their merit, monetarily or otherwise. Many of those will never receive a second or third wife, and perhaps many of them are secretly happier the way they are with one wife.